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> Compiling Sprites in a Response 1 bionode
Wasabi
post Jul 22 2008, 11:27 AM
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If a TM has an Intuition of 1 they have a Response of 1.
That limits non-CF's as well as Sprites and Agents to an EFFECTIVE rating of 1 regardless of their real rating.
Does that mean compiling, registering, and decompiling sprites is easier when their EFFECTIVE rating is reduced by a low Response or low System bionode?

[Looking for a RAW answer as for me it pertains to SRM games primarily]
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The Jopp
post Jul 22 2008, 11:54 AM
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Hmm, personally I'd say that if you compile a Rating 4 Sprite in a Rating 1 Node then all Compiling/Resistance rolls from the sprite will be rolled as if it is rating 4.

AFTER compiling it I would then reduce it to Rating 1 as it is toned down within the node.

After all, it isn't compiled until all the rolls are done.
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Cheops
post Jul 22 2008, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (Wasabi @ Jul 22 2008, 12:27 PM) *
If a TM has an Intuition of 1 they have a Response of 1.
That limits non-CF's as well as Sprites and Agents to an EFFECTIVE rating of 1 regardless of their real rating.
Does that mean compiling, registering, and decompiling sprites is easier when their EFFECTIVE rating is reduced by a low Response or low System bionode?

[Looking for a RAW answer as for me it pertains to SRM games primarily]


duh...maybe I'm missing something but when have Sprites EVER been limited by response of the system?
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The Jopp
post Jul 22 2008, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (Cheops @ Jul 22 2008, 03:22 PM) *
duh...maybe I'm missing something but when have Sprites EVER been limited by response of the system?


Well, according to raw they behave like agents, thus loading an agent/sprite at a rating higher than the Response will drop them to the Response rating lvl.

You can run as many as you like but their rating is limited by the response rating of the node
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Tiger Eyes
post Jul 22 2008, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (Cheops @ Jul 22 2008, 10:22 AM) *
duh...maybe I'm missing something but when have Sprites EVER been limited by response of the system?


I'm with you Cheops. Where does it say that sprites are limited by response? They aren't agents nor do they "behave" as agents; they're sentient, they're resonance based, they have a variety of abilities agents don't have, they come from the resonance realms.
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 03:56 PM
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I'm also of the opinion that sprites are not limited by response.
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The Jopp
post Jul 22 2008, 04:47 PM
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Meh, I shouldnt answer in forums while at work, things get muddled.

Let's see.

System is limited by response and everything run in a node is limited by system rating. Sprites function like agents and agents cannot be higher rating than the system of the node they inhibit

Thus a Technomancer with Response 1 System 4 would have an effective system of 1 and can only run Sprites in the bionode at rating 1, they are effectively being supressed from 4 to 1 due to the low response rating supressing the node's system rating.
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 05:06 PM
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Not everything run in a node is limited by system rating. Only programs are. P213.

Per the sprite section p.234, they are similar to agents, and have a rating, that is equivalent to Agent's pilot ratings in terms of use, but it is not a program.

Therefore, sprites are not limited by the system of a node because a sprite is not a program, and only programs are limited by the system. (Which is then limited by response)

This means technos and sprites can come in and not care what kinda node they're going into, as they get to use their full potential against it.
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The Jopp
post Jul 22 2008, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 22 2008, 05:06 PM) *
Not everything run in a node is limited by system rating. Only programs are. P213.

Per the sprite section p.234, they are similar to agents, and have a rating, that is equivalent to Agent's pilot ratings in terms of use, but it is not a program.

Therefore, sprites are not limited by the system of a node because a sprite is not a program, and only programs are limited by the system. (Which is then limited by response)

This means technos and sprites can come in and not care what kinda node they're going into, as they get to use their full potential against it.


I am reading this that you interpret parts of the rules but not the rest. Sprites functions like agents, agents are classified as
QUOTE
Agents are semi-autonomous programs
and if sprites BEHAVE like them then they have the same limitations.

Since Agents are affected by System rating as an active program then so do sprites.

Also, check under the fluff heading on sprites where they say:

QUOTE
to most analyses they seem to be unusual and complex programs that form out of nothing.
Emphasis mine.
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 05:27 PM
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Emphasis mine. P.234, "In game terms, sprites are very similar to agents (p. 227). Each sprite has a rating that is equivalent to the Pilot rating on an agent."

Also, if they "seem to be" a program, that doesn't mean they are. And the sprites rating is equivalent to the Pilot of the Agent. The pilot PROGRAM is what gets limited, while the sprite merely has a rating, it does not have a program.

Agents are programs, sprites are not. Emphasis mine, from the same passage you quoted.
P.234, "Technomancers also have the ability to create semi-autonomous entities out of the fabric of the Matrix—digital creatures that answer to the technomancer’s beck and call. These sprites are viewed as pets or unusual virtual friends by some technomancers, while others view them as spirits of the machine."
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Zak
post Jul 22 2008, 06:03 PM
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Isn't this basically the same can of worms that was opened with summoning/binding spirits inside a background count/mana static?
Apart from pissed off spirits using edge.. how was that ruled?
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 06:05 PM
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No, because spirits definitely are affected by a background count. This discussion is about whether sprites are limited by the response of a node. The analogy would be asking if a spirit is affected by a background count.
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Zak
post Jul 22 2008, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 22 2008, 08:05 PM) *
No, because spirits definitely are affected by a background count. This discussion is about whether sprites are limited by the response of a node. The analogy would be asking if a spirit is affected by a background count.


True, I'll come back to my question in case you decided that it is limited by response. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
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Tiger Eyes
post Jul 22 2008, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 22 2008, 02:05 PM) *
No, because spirits definitely are affected by a background count. This discussion is about whether sprites are limited by the response of a node. The analogy would be asking if a spirit is affected by a background count.


Perhaps the correct analogy would be asking if a Sprite is affected by a resonance well or dissonance well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I believe from reading Unwired that they would be.

Alternatively, you could ask if an agent is affected by a resonance well. I do not believe an agent would be affected by a resonance well (it would not get any additions to its dicepool or get its rating increased).

This may be a side-ways view of it, but it has parallels. The response/system of a node limits an agent's pilot program. Sprites do not have programs, they have complex forms and resonance powers.
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Malicant
post Jul 22 2008, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jul 22 2008, 07:17 PM) *
I am reading this that you interpret parts of the rules but not the rest. Sprites functions like agents, agents are classified as and if sprites BEHAVE like them then they have the same limitations

Sprites have an Edge attribute, agents being programs don't. Why? Sprites are not programs, similar to CFs, which are not programs either. You can boost a CF, which is similar to a program, to rating of 12 and above, but no node on effing earth has such a Response/System. Odd, isn't it?
But back to sprites. You can spoof a command to an agent. You cannot do the same with a sprite. Why? Because it is not a program.

Have a nice day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jul 22 2008, 11:40 AM) *
Perhaps the correct analogy would be asking if a Sprite is affected by a resonance well or dissonance well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I believe from reading Unwired that they would be.

Alternatively, you could ask if an agent is affected by a resonance well. I do not believe an agent would be affected by a resonance well (it would not get any additions to its dicepool or get its rating increased).

This may be a side-ways view of it, but it has parallels. The response/system of a node limits an agent's pilot program. Sprites do not have programs, they have complex forms and resonance powers.


Actually, thats a great point, and I fully agree with you.
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Cheops
post Jul 23 2008, 04:55 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jul 22 2008, 05:17 PM) *
I am reading this that you interpret parts of the rules but not the rest. Sprites functions like agents, agents are classified as and if sprites BEHAVE like them then they have the same limitations.

Since Agents are affected by System rating as an active program then so do sprites.

Also, check under the fluff heading on sprites where they say:

Emphasis mine.


Behave /= Function

I can behave like a dog but I don't function like one. At least I hope not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
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The Jopp
post Jul 23 2008, 05:04 AM
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QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jul 22 2008, 07:40 PM) *
Perhaps the correct analogy would be asking if a Sprite is affected by a resonance well or dissonance well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I believe from reading Unwired that they would be.

Alternatively, you could ask if an agent is affected by a resonance well. I do not believe an agent would be affected by a resonance well (it would not get any additions to its dicepool or get its rating increased).

This may be a side-ways view of it, but it has parallels. The response/system of a node limits an agent's pilot program. Sprites do not have programs, they have complex forms and resonance powers.


Hmm, i can agree to that. There is one small problem though.

Response/System limitations still dumps the complex forms of the sprite down to its level. So a lvl 6 sprite in a Response 1 System 6 node would function at Rating 6 but complex forms and the node's system rating would function at 1.

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Tarantula
post Jul 23 2008, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jul 22 2008, 10:04 PM) *
Hmm, i can agree to that. There is one small problem though.

Response/System limitations still dumps the complex forms of the sprite down to its level. So a lvl 6 sprite in a Response 1 System 6 node would function at Rating 6 but complex forms and the node's system rating would function at 1.


No, it doesn't. System limits program ratings. Response limits system rating. Nothing limits complex form ratings, just like it doesn't limit sprite ratings.
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The Jopp
post Jul 23 2008, 02:01 PM
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Interesting. According to RAW you are correct - but i wonder if that was the writers intent?

RAW aside it smacks of gamebreaking OR making Tm very powerful if they can upload a rating 12 sprite to hack things for them on a node that usually wouldn't be able to contain it.

I have no problem with a TM threading a rating 12 CF in his bionode but as soon as things are uploaded unto a mechanical node it should follow its rules as the CF or Sprite is basically forced into a frame to small to contain it, after all, The Resonance IS a part of the matrix and therefore it IS forced to follow certain rules of physics, it is not a magical realm where everythign is possible.

Sounds like a FAQ question that has been missed.
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Cheops
post Jul 23 2008, 02:10 PM
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Actually the Matrix has a lot of shiite going on that can't be explained by normal rules of computing. I'm looking at you Resonance Realms.

I'd suggest you go and read Unwired before proceeding any further with your line of reasoning.
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Tiger Eyes
post Jul 23 2008, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jul 23 2008, 01:04 AM) *
Hmm, i can agree to that. There is one small problem though.

Response/System limitations still dumps the complex forms of the sprite down to its level. So a lvl 6 sprite in a Response 1 System 6 node would function at Rating 6 but complex forms and the node's system rating would function at 1.


A TMs system = logic & Response = Intuition.

Neither of those have any effect on Complex Forms in game (out of chargen, that is). Instead, the rating of a Complex Form can't be above a TMs resonance, except for threading. A TM w/Resonance at 6 can thread a CF up to 12 if they want. There isn't a bionode (logic/intuition) that will ever get to 12. And no regular node will ever get to 12. A TM with Resonance 9 can learn a CF at rating 9 and always use it without being limited by Response or system. Sooo... Complex Forms are not limited by system or response.

And since Free Sprites can learn to thread Complex Forms (pg 158 Unwired), it stands to reason that their CF are not limited by the node's attributes either.

edit: oops, I see the gentlemen have beat me to the answer...
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crizh
post Jul 23 2008, 02:20 PM
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This seems to me to be a basic misunderstanding of the way sprites work. Unwired hasn't helped here unfortunately.

Where in the BBB does it say that a Sprite can load itself into a node?

(Yes it says they are similar to Agents....)

It specifically says that a Sprite cannot access a node without the TM being present in it. A bit like an Agent accessing a node through a Hackers Persona. It says that a Sprite on remote service can access a node if it has codes or can hack it's way in. It does not say that it is loaded into that node however.

From my point of view Sprites are 'loaded' into the Resonance (a cluster that consists of the entire Matrix) and only ever access nodes either through a TM's living persona or by having il/legitimate access whilst on Remote Service. Thus their ratings and CF's have no limit.
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The Jopp
post Jul 23 2008, 02:36 PM
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Interesting, for some Technomancers it actually means that the logic attribute isn't very useful.

They dont use it to run complex forms in any way and might, possible use it for fading if their tradition warrants it.

Then it is only for defense against the following actions (might have missed some)
Crash program/OS
Eavsedrop node Traffic
Probing The Target

And to Terminate Connection...

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Tiger Eyes
post Jul 23 2008, 02:56 PM
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Logic (system) also limits how many nodes you can connect to at once= systemx2. (pg 218 SR4) This includes drones.

Logic is used with the Hardware skill, for those times you need to tap into a system the old fashioned way or want to screw with your teammates commlinks, or forge a passkey, or physically change a hardware item's access code.

Logic + Willpower is used in the Rebooting Extended Test for TMs.

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