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> Suppressing a room through a wall
Memeurgy
post Jul 22 2008, 05:49 PM
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Say two parties are negotiating from opposite sides of a standard drywall wall. If talks break down and one party decides to spray the other with machine gun fire, I know short and long bursts are going to suffer the -6 cover penalty for not actually being able to see the target at all. But, what if the gentleman with the gun just wants to suppress the area on the other side of the wall? Does cover apply to that attack roll? It seems logical that, since he's just holding down the trigger and waving the gun in the general direction of the targets, that cover would not apply and the only drawback is the armor value of the wall.
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masterofm
post Jul 22 2008, 06:03 PM
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Cover does not apply as you are already factoring the -6 for blind firing. Yes the drywall does take it's armor and body rating into the roll. If the talks are breaking down people would probably also be allowed to dodge, because both sides are cautious and also know of other's presence as well as the fact that talks are degrading. Kind of remind me of Snatch when the guy starts unloading his desert eagle through the wall there were five people in a short cramped hallway and he only scored one hit. Firing through a wall might have to roll a suprise test, or perception, or both depending on the situation.

Now if one side is hiding behind a drywall, and behind a steel beam the drywall and beam would get to roll armor, and body combined before even having a chance of hurting the occupant hiding behind both objects.
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 06:58 PM
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The supressor would get agility + firearm skill, thats it, as it says in the suppressive fire section. No modifiers are taken into account. This includes specializations, smartlinks and the line also, just straight agi+skill.
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JudgementLoaf
post Jul 22 2008, 07:42 PM
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Also note position of any potential "targets". Prone targets (if any) or other similar quirks of position would not be likely to be hit.
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 07:45 PM
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Cancel that. Re-reading the section, it says that anyone behind cover or prone in the area is not affected. So, I'd say you can't effectively supress people behind cover, and would instead have to go with full auto wide burst and target multiple people.
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sunnyside
post Jul 22 2008, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (JudgementLoaf @ Jul 22 2008, 03:42 PM) *
Also note position of any potential "targets". Prone targets (if any) or other similar quirks of position would not be likely to be hit.


By witch he means you do have to declare the area you're covering same as if you could see through the wall. If your arc doesn't catch someone you just don't roll.

It's debatable. But I do the same for other cases of blind fire. If someone is invisible in a room and you have no idea where they are. You can't just say you're going to shoot them and roll at -6. To get the -6 you have to know about where you're shooting.
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Zaranthan
post Jul 22 2008, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM) *
Cancel that. Re-reading the section, it says that anyone behind cover or prone in the area is not affected. So, I'd say you can't effectively supress people behind cover, and would instead have to go with full auto wide burst and target multiple people.

If you're using a weapon that can punch through the cover and kill someone behind it, it's not really cover. I'd say anyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the area who doesn't dive for superior cover and gets hit would receive the wall's body and armor as a straight DP bonus to their damage resistance. You're not likely to hurt anyone like this, but it can still have the effect you want.
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE (Zaranthan @ Jul 22 2008, 01:59 PM) *
If you're using a weapon that can punch through the cover and kill someone behind it, it's not really cover. I'd say anyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the area who doesn't dive for superior cover and gets hit would receive the wall's body and armor as a straight DP bonus to their damage resistance. You're not likely to hurt anyone like this, but it can still have the effect you want.


Except that by RAW it still is cover. And thusly, by RAW, you can't suppress them.
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Eryk the Red
post Jul 22 2008, 09:13 PM
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By applying the "Rule of Cool", you could instead allow them to be hurt, instead of treating them as all behind cover and thus immune to damage. I would instead say that everyone gets the Armor of the wall added to their own damage resistance, as with all attempts to shoot through barriers.

If you'd prefer not to break the rules in that way (in spite of the rule actually making things LESS cool), you would instead want to just use a wide Full or Long Burst, and the shooting through barriers rule as normal.

Edit: Also, use your head about what should count as cover, in any situation. Hiding behind a large sheet of paper should not protect you against gunfire. Should the presence of a sheet of drywall make the hail of bullets not dangerous? It's each GM's call, but I lean toward "no".
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 09:32 PM
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Or apply the "Rule of Stupidity" and declare that since Mr. Suppression can't see anyone, he doesn't hit anyone with his wild uncontrolled full auto fire.

Paper or drywall both can make it so they have no clue where to shoot, and thus the damage from the bullets doesn't happen, since they don't actually hit you.
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masterofm
post Jul 22 2008, 10:31 PM
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Why would you call your own rule stupid? Anyways what if they can see the targets behind the wall? Lets say I don't know by detecting their heat signatures or using radar vision? I think the first poster was asking the question because he wanted some kind of cinematic sequence where someone starts firing blindly behind the wall maybe shooting out someones kneecap.
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CanRay
post Jul 22 2008, 10:34 PM
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Now, having a Troll Suppress the room with a Full-Auto Supressing Series of Shots from a Gattling Gun would be the best way to do things.

And, just for the sake of arguement, it's in a glass warehouse, so all the glass is shot up and goes sprinkling around as only random, stray shots hit people.

A stray round can kill just as good as an aimed shot.
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Tarantula
post Jul 22 2008, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (masterofm @ Jul 22 2008, 04:31 PM) *
Why would you call your own rule stupid? Anyways what if they can see the targets behind the wall? Lets say I don't know by detecting their heat signatures or using radar vision? I think the first poster was asking the question because he wanted some kind of cinematic sequence where someone starts firing blindly behind the wall maybe shooting out someones kneecap.

Edited... Happier?

Heat signatures through a wall? Doesn't happen. Radar vision, I could buy, except then why are you suppressing them (instead of just shooting at them directly) since this is fairly obviously a way to try to avoid the blind fire penalty (since hes just wildly waving the gun about in the example). If you had radar vision, you'd be much better off taking shots at the individual people instead.

QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 22 2008, 04:34 PM) *
Now, having a Troll Suppress the room with a Full-Auto Supressing Series of Shots from a Gattling Gun would be the best way to do things.

And, just for the sake of arguement, it's in a glass warehouse, so all the glass is shot up and goes sprinkling around as only random, stray shots hit people.

A stray round can kill just as good as an aimed shot.


Except aimed shots tend to kill a lot more often than the stray ones.
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CanRay
post Jul 22 2008, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 22 2008, 05:39 PM) *
Except aimed shots tend to kill a lot more often than the stray ones.

Rounds that hit kill the most. Aimed or not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Siege
post Jul 23 2008, 01:36 AM
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Cover - protection from the weapon (depending, of course, on the weapon).
Concealment - protection from sight.

A bush is concealment, not cover. Bullet-proof glass is cover, not concealment. 6" of t-shield is usually both.

There are reasons why someone would hose a mag blindly - most notably stormtroopers charging down a hallway, shoulder to shoulder. And not a few sec guards have been known to adopt this tactic, which is why some samurai carry an Ingram Smartgun and a mag of EX rounds labeled "Zerg Breaker."

Of course, grenades also do wonders in this scenario.

Depending on the skill of your opposition, randomly spraying rounds could make people dive and scramble for cover. Or, if someone is posted up and pulling security, your arm is an excellent point of reference for them to respond in kind.

-Siege
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Sir_Psycho
post Jul 23 2008, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 22 2008, 04:32 PM) *
Or apply the "Rule of Stupidity" and declare that since Mr. Suppression can't see anyone, he doesn't hit anyone with his wild uncontrolled full auto fire.

Paper or drywall both can make it so they have no clue where to shoot, and thus the damage from the bullets doesn't happen, since they don't actually hit you.

If you want to hit some-one in a room you can't see, it seems that the most effective way to hit anyone (or at least make them get down) is to fill the room with as many bullets as you can in an even spread.

In fact, thinking of the rules, the penalty for shooting at some-one you can't see seems to be -6, not "they have no clue where to shoot, and thus the damage from the bullets doesn't happen".
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Shiloh
post Jul 23 2008, 08:54 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 22 2008, 11:39 PM) *
Heat signatures through a wall? Doesn't happen.


Interesting how fire departments can use heat cameras to find people buried in rubble, then, eh? You are, I'm afraid mistaken: proper theromgraphic vision aids can see vague blurs through walls.

QUOTE
Radar vision, I could buy...


Then I have this real estate I would like you to see. Don't mind the alligators... Radar that will penetrate a wall will go right through any people the other side too and not be reflected as useful "vision". Millimetre-wave won't penetrate drywall studding.

Fire a lead hose like a minigun through a drywall at knee height and you're liable to hid at least someone on the other side of the wall.
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Bull
post Jul 23 2008, 10:14 AM
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QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jul 23 2008, 03:54 AM) *
QUOTE
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 22 2008, 11:39 PM)
Heat signatures through a wall? Doesn't happen.


Interesting how fire departments can use heat cameras to find people buried in rubble, then, eh? You are, I'm afraid mistaken: proper theromgraphic vision aids can see vague blurs through walls.


Plus, they do it in movies all the time. And Shadowrun is nothing if not a cinematic style of game. At least for a lot of players.

They'd be at a penalty, but when I was still GMing I allowed this on a couple occasions.

Bull
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CanRay
post Jul 23 2008, 12:25 PM
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Depends on the insulation of the walls/windows for Thermal. If it keeps heat in, then it's not going to radiate as well. Interior walls are easier to see through, but, depending on the building... Some have good internal insulation, especially older apartment buildings that haven't been cut up into smaller apartments.

At least, in harsh, dangerous enviromental places like where I live right now. (Still can't believe I moved here of my own free will!).

Just drywall, however, yeah, you could see through that no problem. That's more dividers for rooms than anything else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Cheops
post Jul 23 2008, 02:07 PM
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Of course the theoretical Troll with a minigun can just link up to his buddies on the other side of the wall with AR or TacNet in which case he can see all the targets clearly. Then it's just a matter of whether the bullets can penetrate the dry wall.
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Sir_Psycho
post Jul 23 2008, 02:15 PM
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And if the troll doesn't have a mini-gun handy, just have him walk through the drywall and punch the offending persons in the face.
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Tarantula
post Jul 23 2008, 02:47 PM
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Post some support for your position that infrared can see accurately through drywall (even a 4 foot space to shoot at I'd say is "good enough" for this). I couldn't find any information on seeing through drywall/walls with infrared.

Rubble I can understand, since it isn't a solid surface, and there are cracks for the heat to escape through.
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psychophipps
post Jul 23 2008, 03:24 PM
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Be a real bummer if one of your homies accidentally steps a bit too far into the room, eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Best way to do it in all seriousness? Set up a couple of pillars from cheap electric fans and duct tape them onto the floor as firing stakes. This way the gunner can really go to town from a tripod and will still be only able to sweep the designated beaten zone with the machinegun. Pick up the gun from the tripod after emptying the whole belt, place it into a long case of some sort, and pull the pin on that handy-dandy incendiary grenade duct taped to the tripod. Let the heat from the thermite and water from the city ordinance-mandated sprinklers remove the evidence for you.
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CanRay
post Jul 23 2008, 03:26 PM
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Don't forget to incind the fans, too, to muddle up the evidence!
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Dashifen
post Jul 23 2008, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 23 2008, 08:15 AM) *
And if the troll doesn't have a mini-gun handy, just have him walk through the drywall and punch the offending persons in the face.


Awesome. I like the cut of your jib!
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