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> Natural Poisons, What kind to use, what damage code?
The Jopp
post Dec 18 2003, 10:53 AM
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I'm working on a character with a chemical gland. The gland is an aerosol type with a contact vector poison. Here's the problem: The venom gland can produce any NATURAL venom and those are pretty limited in M&M.

I made a search on the internet for several types of contact poisons and Irritants but I want something fast acting and not-quite lethal. (say M damage code with something akin to pepper-punch side effect)

Jellyfish, man-O-war, Sea Wasp and spitting cobra comes to mind but only the spitting cobra seems to have an actual contact vector (eyes) and cause no damage on the skin whatsoever.

Does anyone have any suggestion on natural toxins and poisons that only need contact with the skin to have an effective effect?

And what would a limited damage code be? What possible side effects and modifiers would apply for the one affected?

Any ideas, links etc?
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Yum Donuts
post Dec 18 2003, 03:08 PM
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But wait.... if something is natural, it can't be bad for you, just look at all those late night infomercials about "All natural, Herbal Suplements" that have "No side effects because they're all natural."
things like belladona, cyanide, and poison ivy are all natural Herbal supplements. and TTX (the toxin from pufferfish) is a fish oil extract.

sorry, went off on a rant there. my advice would be go to a library and look up some toxicology textbooks, they should give you the LD50, as well as how it affects the body, and what it can do (all my textbooks are in another state right now, so you'll have to wait til next week if you want me to do the work for you). from there, you should be able to compare it to the info given for compounds in M&M and back calculate the game stats.

of course if we have any toxicologists in our midst right now, I would ask them. I'm just dabbling
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The Jopp
post Dec 18 2003, 03:26 PM
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Well, I've found a LOT of information about poisons and toxins but most of them (like pufferfish, Cyanide etc) must be either INJECTED or DIGESTED and that will not be very useful.

According to the information I could find about jellyfish told me that they have in fact thousands of very small stingers on all those trailing tentacles that pierce the skin to inject the poison and that makes it an INJECTED poison instead of CONTACT poison even if you must actually touch the tentacles to have it injected.

The annoying thing is that there is probably HUNDREDS of poisons that you only need a drop on your skin for to die of but how many of those are natural ones?
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Yum Donuts
post Dec 18 2003, 03:57 PM
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and how fast do you want them to die? I've worked in the chem lab with some things that are probably death sentences if you get them on you, but that's because they're carcinogens will have very nasty effects down the road. other things that seep through the skin can cause nausea and blindness OVER TIME, but having an instant kill poison on contact that's contact based, good luck.
you might want to try for inhaled, since that's something you can do at a range, but still make it be reasonable.
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The Jopp
post Dec 18 2003, 04:03 PM
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Actually I'm not really interested in them dying but rather in causing severe pain, temporary blindness, breathing problems and other sideeffects.

Damn, that sounds just like pepper punch? I'd like something that cause permanent injury to the skin, not fatal but also give other nasty sideeffects like itching wounds, nausea and other goodies. I guess something doing about "M" damage and giving penalties.

I found nice things like a scorpion causing severe pain by spitting a stream of poison up to a meter and they caused severe pain on a human, what if that scorpion was human sized and sprayed poison up to 1-6 meters? Temporary paralysis perhaps.

I KNEW I would find at least ONE person with experience in this field. Now, If i could just find a rocket scientist and a nuclear weapons expert... :grinbig:
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The Neutronium A...
post Dec 18 2003, 04:06 PM
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Personally I'd look at the world of insects for inspiration. Many types of ant spray formic acid as a defence mechanism and the bombardier beetle can blast predators with an explosive mixture.

I'm not aware of any topical poison that is excreted from a higher animal*. I'd think it unlikely too, given the size of a molecule needed to penetrate the skin and bearing in mind that if something's trying to eat you it probably, by definition, puts you in its mouth.

*The poisons from Poison Dart Frogs might penetrate the unbroken skin of a human but these are probably far too deadly for what you want.

Hope that helps
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Fortune
post Dec 18 2003, 10:15 PM
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You could consider looking into the Cane Toad. While it is normally an ingested-type poison, it can supposedly actually spray it in a mist form that is absorded through the eyes, nose, and mouth.
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Tanka
post Dec 18 2003, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (Yum Donuts)
But wait.... if something is natural, it can't be bad for you, just look at all those late night infomercials about "All natural, Herbal Suplements" that have "No side effects because they're all natural."
things like belladona, cyanide, and poison ivy are all natural Herbal supplements. and TTX (the toxin from pufferfish) is a fish oil extract.

sorry, went off on a rant there. my advice would be go to a library and look up some toxicology textbooks, they should give you the LD50, as well as how it affects the body, and what it can do (all my textbooks are in another state right now, so you'll have to wait til next week if you want me to do the work for you). from there, you should be able to compare it to the info given for compounds in M&M and back calculate the game stats.

of course if we have any toxicologists in our midst right now, I would ask them. I'm just dabbling

Something that's usually bad won't kill you in small amounts. Once it hits a certain threshhold, then it's bad for you.
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gknoy
post Dec 18 2003, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE (The Neutronium Alchemist @ Dec 18 2003, 11:06 AM)
Personally I'd look at the world of insects for inspiration. Many types of ant spray formic acid as a defence mechanism and the bombardier beetle can blast predators with an explosive mixture.

You know, I think that a gland that generated / spat formic acid would be a VERY effective and reasonable toxin thing. If ants can make it, we can engineer a way to gland-produce it, I think... ;) And while it isn't a "toxin" per se, it certainly counts as something squirtable that would I think certainly cause more than a "light" wound... I mean, acid can have some serious scarring effects, too. I remember a Sherlock Holmes (I think? Maybe it was Poirot?) story even, where some character had been permanently scarred when someone threw a glass of some acid in her face.

Heck, depending on the amount / pH / concentration of the acid being squirted, it might be more than a M wound... I mean, screaming and clawing at your face to Make The Pain Stop has got to be more than a +2 modifier ;) Maybe that'd be a staged up shot, though ...
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Req
post Dec 18 2003, 11:07 PM
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Formic acid hurts, but it certainly doesn't burn you and cause horrible scarring. In fact, it doesn't hurt THAT much. It's not a Fun Thing To Do In Your Spare Time, but it ain't no hydrofluoric acid either.

Now that's some fun stuff, right there.

Box Jelly toxin would be something to look into. I'm not sure how much it would do without a delivery system, but jellyfish nematocysts don't penetrate all that deeply in the first place, I'd think. And if you *do* get that stuff into your bloodstream you're pretty much screwed.
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Yum Donuts
post Dec 19 2003, 12:21 AM
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hydrofluoric acid isn't that strong of an acid, it's just toxic as all hell, and carcinogenic, and it gets into your bones and nerves and stays there for a while. very not good.

you mentioned throwing a glass of acid in someone's face, well I have scars on the inside of my arm from a couple DROPS of nitric acid from the end of a pipette that got jostled. HCl is also a strong acid, and that's generated by your stomach. just get a way to squirt it.
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gknoy
post Dec 19 2003, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE (Req)
Formic acid hurts, but it certainly doesn't burn you and cause horrible scarring.  In fact, it doesn't hurt THAT much.  It's not a Fun Thing To Do In Your Spare Time, but it ain't no hydrofluoric acid either.


Thanks for clarifying that :) I wasn't sure on how acidic formic acid is.

Hey, while you're at it ... why not attach that poisin gland to your cyberspurs, and use platypus venom on it? That stuff's plain evil: it won't kill you, but the pain is incredible, I hear. Something about being a pain catalyst. I'd chalk that up as like S stun damage, or something...

The modifiers that would result from a successful hit / poisoning would be crazy -- M or L damage from the spurs, and S or M stun from the toxin would mean ... +3 to +5 (or worse) to all their TNs... ouch.

I hope my GM never reads this thread. *waves at Kagetenshi :spin: *
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Herald of Verjig...
post Dec 19 2003, 12:28 AM
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The strength of an acid is also greatly dependant on the acid/water ratio. Without some H2O in there, the acid will be solid and often unreactive.
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Yum Donuts
post Dec 19 2003, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE (gknoy)
Hey, while you're at it ... why not attach that poisin gland to your cyberspurs, and use platypus venom on it? That stuff's plain evil: it won't kill you, but the pain is incredible, I hear. Something about being a pain catalyst. I'd chalk that up as like S stun damage, or something...

I'd do it like the Agony spell that they get modifiers as if they experienced a certain amount of stun damage from the pain, but that they don't actually take any actual stun damage. platypus poison is NASTY, pain killers as we know them do not work (run that one through your trauma damper).
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 19 2003, 12:33 AM
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Why not treat it like Hyper (a drug that already has rules), and just state that the effects are from pain instead of befuddlement?
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Tiralee
post Dec 19 2003, 02:48 PM
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Ooookay, ask the chemical geek, eh?

Firstly, even with the even of awakened critters spitting flame, et all, most _dangerous_ poisonous creatures have either an Irritant poison, a tissue-bound compound or an injectile delivery system.

Having an irritant posion that suddenly makes your face melt off, although rather cool, is best left to man-made goodies as mother nature has found stuff like that will simply take up too much of the animal's "system resources" to replentish, maintain and deliver.

Cases:
1: The (Reef) Stonefish, happily hoovering up small fish and crustacea in shallow reef areas. This thing belongs to the Scorpaenidae, which also includes the Lionfish, Red Scorpion Fish, The Bearded Ghoul... Well, you get the idea. They tend to be spiky, put it that way. The usual way to get envemomated by these suckers is to walk on one of the 13 strongly-anchored dorsal spines, breaking a protein sheath and literally injecting yourself with what's described as "Purified, distilled, hatefull agony from the lake of fire".
So, why the spines, and the "ouch-maker" poison? Defence. When alarmed, it erects the spines, and hides under the nearest shelter (usually the other foot.) while the stung beastie runs away as fast as it can. And dies. (Out of interest, the Scorpaenidae family are great eating(Yes, I have.), the Red Scorpionfish also known as "Poorman's Lobster.")
Code: 8S, same damage in stun. Yes. It's that bad.

2: Coneshells. These happy, carnivorous shells with strikingly beautiful patterns (The Geographical Coneshell is prized by collectors.) have an inbuilt poisoned harpoon in their probiscus (Including a magazine of extra rounds!), which they use on anything that comes in reach (10-30 cm, maybe more for other species.) These little suckers kill 8-19 ignorant divers a year. So, why such a horribly-potent neurotoxin? Simple, things in the sea need to eat, and if dinner's dead before you extend your probiscus around it, you feed with less risk. BTW - handle only with BBQ tongs, IF you must. They can easily hit anything (360 degrees) including faces of interested fellow divers.
Code: 5-8D. (Breathing stops in about 2-9 seconds. Yep. Seconds. So drop the pretty thing and start CPR.)


3: Box Jellyfish. Similar deliver to the coneshells, but have thousands of limited-range "one-shot" barbs. Agony, yes, Extensive tissue and nerve damage, oh yes. Reason? Feeding. Stealthy because it needs to sneak up to prey, not to ruin a holiday.
Code: Hell, 5M Stun, 2L Physical. Depends on amount and area affected. (Delivery by nanite is about the closest thing to mimic the natural effects, so stick with the cynaide, eh? This was only an example.)

4: Cane Toads: An irritant caustic posion (The previous examples being active protein compounds.) that makes things trying to eat it spit it out in a damn hurry. The posionglands are behind the toad's head and DO NOT spray out. (Except when hit by a golfclub.) Basically, when alarmed it will "sweat" this milky-white crap and not be eaten.
3-5M Stun. It really hurts kids! Try not to get it into your eyes, either.(Will blind)


I could go into TTX, which causes the Sailfish (about the only thing stupid enough to eat pufferfish apart from Japanese consumers) to get "drunk", but treat it at a 9D when injected, harmless when ingested.

So, if you are wanting a natural poison, stick with what mankind has cooked up in the labs. A concentrated nitric acid solution will cause more pain faster than some home-brewed toxin factory, and you can etch your name in people if you're bored, too.

L. :dead:
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Tiralee
post Dec 19 2003, 03:12 PM
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Geeze, lookit all dem typos!

(Never post after work on a Friday)

Found this too:

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic300.htm

I like this bit:
QUOTE
Pain
Immediately excruciating and incapacitating localized pain follows a sting from members of the Synanceia (stonefish) genus.
This pain may spread to involve the entire limb and regional lymph nodes, peaking at around 60-90 minutes and lasting up to 12 hours if untreated.
Mild subsequent pain may persist for days to weeks.


Well now, that's got to be fun if you include a decent dose of hyper in the narcoject....

L- :sleepy:

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Tanka
post Dec 19 2003, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (Tiralee)
I like this bit:
QUOTE
Pain
Immediately excruciating and incapacitating localized pain follows a sting from members of the Synanceia (stonefish) genus.
This pain may spread to involve the entire limb and regional lymph nodes, peaking at around 60-90 minutes and lasting up to 12 hours if untreated.
Mild subsequent pain may persist for days to weeks.


Well now, that's got to be fun if you include a decent dose of hyper in the narcoject....

L- :sleepy:

*twitch*

Owww....
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Fortune
post Dec 19 2003, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (Tiralee)
The posionglands are behind the toad's head and DO NOT spray out. (Except when hit by a golfclub.)

I didn't make it up. I did do some research before I posted. An example of which can be found here. An excerpt of the appropriate section reads:
QUOTE
All frogs and toads may have enlarged chemical-secreting glands at particular points on their bodies, of small glands spread over the whole skin. The chemicals they produce are highly varied, and in some cases may be highly toxic. The Cane Toad is one such amphibian. A Cane Toad's reaction to a threat is to turn side-on to its attacker so that the venom glands face them. Cane Toad venom is also found all over their skin. Animals picking up a Cane Toad and receiving a dose of venom may die within fifteen minutes.

The glands on the Cane Toads' shoulders are also capable of oozing venom or even squirting it over a distance of up to 2m if the toad is particularly roughly treated. The biggest danger to humans is that the venom could come in contact with the eyes, where it causes intense pain and temporary blindness.

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Zazen
post Dec 20 2003, 12:40 AM
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Maybe by "particularly rough treatment" they mean a whack from a 9-iron. ;)
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Herald of Verjig...
post Dec 20 2003, 05:12 AM
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It really only takes one strong squeeze, no need to get out the clubs.

New skill: squirt weapons(Cane Toad), no need to buy ammo, just try not to squeeze hard enough to kill them.
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 20 2003, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (gknoy)
Hey, while you're at it ... why not attach that poisin gland to your cyberspurs, and use platypus venom on it? That stuff's plain evil: it won't kill you, but the pain is incredible, I hear. Something about being a pain catalyst. I'd chalk that up as like S stun damage, or something...

The modifiers that would result from a successful hit / poisoning would be crazy -- M or L damage from the spurs, and S or M stun from the toxin would mean ... +3 to +5 (or worse) to all their TNs... ouch.

I hope my GM never reads this thread. *waves at Kagetenshi :spin: *

I believe that platypus venom also isn't cleared by the body efficiently at all, which means that this state of excruciating pain lasts for quite some time, easily into days and maybe much longer.

~J
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Hero
post Dec 20 2003, 08:08 AM
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I can picture the awakened version of the cone shells then, that be even more nasty and fast acting, I have a few cone shells my self some where. Those poison dart frog are nasty to, and from what I have read in all the National Geographic mags, direct skin contact with one depending by type and diet will kill you. Thats why when you see those native handling then they are using some type leak to keep them from actually making contact with the damn thing. I always liked how the some of the most deadly critters are usually the small ones, I can see starting a shadow business that caters to people that like to use poison a lot. I mean if you need some real nasty neuro toxin I have some coneshell poison for sell, ah, want something painful instead I have some stone fish poison.
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