Runner's Co-Op: Rules and Scratch Thread Options

[ludomastro]

1. I will second the rotating GM.
2. Mercenaries
3. 450 BP, no karma

[Dumori]

1 as I've said basically mercs with some backup and a fancy HQ
2 rotating GMs people can opp out or be ask to be moved up for a good run idea (if other don't mind)
3 450 BP (as I've said) perhaps more nuyen per point say 5500-7000 and availability raised to 16 or 18 (we are a pro group and we have more BPs)

[Trigger]

1. Mercenaries sounds good to me too.
2. Rotating GMs is a good idea and gives time for planning ahead if a schedule is set down early.
3. As I said 450 BP is a good BP amount, and as has been brought up earlier by someone (can't remember ATM) I think there should be some beginning Karma, around 30, for some things can't characters could have at chargen, but can't be bought with BP (such as initiation and multiple skills at high levels that Chargen restricts.)

[ludomastro]

If we are going with the concept of experienced runners, then I can get behind 30 karma as well as 7000 nuyen per BP and the higher availability.

[Divine Virus]

Got new computer, making transition. Sorry about disapearing past couple of days, hopfully connection regular againi tonight.
Cheers!
DV

[Dumori]

If we are going with the concept of experienced runners, then I can get behind 30 karma as well as 7000 nuyen per BP and the higher availability.

I'm for this simple and effective.

[Mister Juan]

Sounds all good to me.
So, do we have anyone against 450bps, 7000 nuyens, 16 avail and 30 karma?

If not, well... get to you papers gents (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[BlackHat]

Back from my weekend, and glad to see that it looks like some progress was made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'll see what I can put together soon. Did we have an estimate for when we wanted to get started - or who would run first?

[Dumori]

I can run for GM frist I'll convert a game map (or two) into Shadowrun not to hard has its a cyberpunk game to start with. It will be pretty much guns only but I can have it done quick can also be part of a small arc of missions.

[De Badd Ass]

Sounds all good to me.
So, do we have anyone against 450bps, 7000 nuyens, 16 avail and 30 karma?

If not, well... get to you papers gents (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I vote that you just hand out Build Points, and let people buy nuyen and karma if they want.

I prefer buying karma with Build Points to an outright karma award, as some may not want karma. Sammies might prefer more Nuyen rather than karma, others might prefer more Build Points. And rather than going with 7000 nuyen per build point, hand out more build points.

Also, if you are going to award more than 400 Build Points, consider raising the limits on skills, too. - like 5 for skill groups.

Otherwise, some people are going to use the karma to get around the limits, while others won't think that is kosher and feel cheated.

Another example: it costs 25 BP to raise an attribute to 6 vs 18 karma to do the same thing.

[Divine Virus]

So RL has been very busy these past few days, so I have no time for housekeeping and updating the top post I am sorry to say.

I really like the 450 BP, 7knY/BP, 30 karma, but I would like to purpose we do something a little different for availability.

What if we made higher availability items cost karma? Say each karma spent increases the allowed availability for 1 item by 4?
This non-awakened, non-TMs have something other then skills to spend karma on.

So it would work something like this
availability<12= 0karma
13-16= 1 karma
17-20= 2 karma
21-24= 3 karma
25-28=4 karma
etc...

Does anyone else like the karma-for-availability idea?

[Dumori]

It sounds good I'm for the karma for alvlibilty rule. I'll have a brief for my mission up by tomorrow. Then we can get this ball rolling after you guys finish your runners.

[BlackHat]

The main reason I am against not giving out karma after chargen (ad just giving out more BP and letting people buy karma) is that you're almost always better off buying things with BP instead of karma (such as those skills above the rating cap). By handing out a set amount of karma after chargen, there is no choice in how you purchase upgrades. You can exceed those caps (or initiate, or learn more spells, or whatever) but you have to do with the more expensive karma costs. By making it all a big pool of BP, you will be able to get skills, attributes, etc ridiculously high for cheap, and would only convert to karma when you had to (for initiation). That said, I won't cry if we go with this approach, because it might make bookkeeping simpler.

If we do want to go with a karma/Bp conversion, I'll throw out a ratio of 2/1. As, after chargen, a lot of things bought with BP cost twice as much with karma (buying new positive qualities, buying off negative qualities, new TM complex forms, etc).

[Dumori]

The main reason I am against not giving out karma after chargen (ad just giving out more BP and letting people buy karma) is that you're almost always better off buying things with BP instead of karma (such as those skills above the rating cap). By handing out a set amount of karma after chargen, there is no choice in how you purchase upgrades. You can exceed those caps (or initiate, or learn more spells, or whatever) but you have to do with the more expensive karma costs. By making it all a big pool of BP, you will be able to get skills, attributes, etc ridiculously high for cheap, and would only convert to karma when you had to (for initiation). That said, I won't cry if we go with this approach, because it might make bookkeeping simpler.

If we do want to go with a karma/Bp conversion, I'll throw out a ratio of 2/1. As, after chargen, a lot of things bought with BP cost twice as much with karma (buying new positive qualities, buying off negative qualities, new TM complex forms, etc).

Im with you on this but I like the 30 karma to start with. and the karma/nuyen rewards after. Side note who much karma/nuyen would be a good play off per person after a misson? im think about 10 karma and 10-30k nuyen more for the big big missons

[BlackHat]

Im with you on this but I like the 30 karma to start with. and the karma/nuyen rewards after. Side note who much karma/nuyen would be a good play off per person after a misson? im think about 10 karma and 10-30k nuyen more for the big big missons

But? It sounds like we're on the same side of this issue. The only thing I am against is using BP in place of karma. Starting with some karma to play with sounds fine. Being awarded karma and nuyen for missions sounds fine.

[DireRadiant]

Karma <==> BP <==> Availability <==> Nuyen conversions

too much math!

Frankly, whether I build an experienced or fresh newbie 'Runner is almost entirely dependent on my choices during the build, and during play for almost all archetypes. (Granted there are some variations, but on the whole you can always make an effective runner with 400 BP)

If you are going to pump up the available build, boost the BP, set design goals, and if you must break availability, simply raise it globally to X. Or keep it simple like allowing one item 12+ availability for all characters.

Decide what we are doing soon, so I can exercise these build rules.

BTW, exactly how are we deciding?

[Dumori]

Karma <==> BP <==> Availability <==> Nuyen conversions

its only
Karma <==> Availability
the rest is normal BP rules but with 450 and each BP worth 7000 nuyen and maybe beta grade wear allowed as far as I know.

Well here is the brief for the first mission:

Brief:
A client wants a automated factory hidden deep in the barrens shutdown and the data stored in it uploaded to one of there severs and then completely destroyed. The exact location of this plant is unknown but it is under an old church in the barrens. This plant will receive shipments of materials and its products are being shipped out as well as the plant maintaining a medium security perimeter. Details of the plants interior is unknown but it will likely have limited wireless access in a few protected areas and it is suspected that it is protected by a rapid deployment teams as well as onsite drones and rail mounted turrets as well as matrix security.

Not much but enough for you to plan a bit. I'll start a new thread for this as soon as the cores rules are set in stone.



What the states for 2 times charisma contact points free. I assume off with the extra 50 BP we all get.

[DireRadiant]

Challenge accepted! Only a few simple changes....

So if we have 450 BP, are we also getting more then 200 BP in attributes?

In addition to 7000 Nuyen per BP, are we getting more then 25 BP out of 450 for gear?

If we are allowed Beta grade wares, is this accounted for somehow in the availability limits?

[BlackHat]

The actual rule for attributes is no more than half of your BP, so I think going as high as 225 is reasonable. For gear, it might make sense to do the cap proportionately there too (Max of 62 points in gear?), although if we're getting more karma per BP, we might not need to. 50 is a nice round number. Availability still seems to be up in the air.

Another question that is probably of interest to people, is with initiation/submersion, are we going to allow groups and ordeals (since, you'd be basically getting them for free... since you don't have to actually roll any dice or anything for a trial you completed in your background). Similarly, we're not making anyone roll to locate items of higher availability, so I'm not necessarily against this idea, but it is worth bringing up, I think.

[BlackHat]

If we are allowed Beta grade wares, is this accounted for somehow in the availability limits?

Does betaware affect availability? I thought it was just 4x cost for 70% essence cost. Or were you asking about other gear (now that we can afford beta-grade cyberware, we should be able to afford a flamethrower)?

[Mister Juan]

I've got the nagging feeling this could go on for ever.

I'm for what DR said : let's keep it simple.

450BP (225BP limit for Attributes, regular skill caps, 56BP cap for Ressources, 3x Charisma free Contact Points)
30K
1BP = 7 000 nuyens
1x 12+ avail item per PC
Betagrade at chargen (doesn't count as a 12+ avail item)

Unless anyone has any fervant objection, I belive we should start working on PCs... or else we'll still be here when Christmas comes.

[Dumori]

availability<12= 0karma
13-16= 1 karma
17-20= 2 karma
21-24= 3 karma
25-28=4 karma
etc...

Im for this for the availability wear up to delta instead of alpha 1 karma for each peace of betawear gear and 4 karma for deltawear (I did the math and this is a good scaling cost) . Not as simple but not as imitating or open to one ott item. Other than that only 2 times for contact point we do have 450BP.

[Mister Juan]

Graded cyber and bioware already cost a crap load more money. I don't see why players should fork karma also. To my knowlege, better grade of cyberware don't have their availabilty rating go up par se; it's the availability interval that goes up. As I said before, we already all have to handle PC creation for 4 PCs, with already tons of options and math. Adding other stuff is just goint to take that much more time, make that much more bookeeping, and make the whole process longer.

If everyone wants to have cyber and bio also paid for in karma, I'll follow along. If not, well, I believe my opinion on the matter is quite clear (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[BlackHat]

I've got the nagging feeling this could go on for ever.

One of the problems of not having a specific GM. We don't have anyone that can put their foot down and make a ruling. Instead, everything is an idea offered up to 8 other people for review, which will spawn 8 more ideas, and so on and so on.

I like what you proposed though, and would like to move forward, so consider my vote for "settled" unless anyone has any strong objections.

One question that isn't so much a house-rule question, but something I am just not clear on. When you initiate, you pay karma based on the grade you are initiating INTO, right? Not the grade that you are before the initiation?

IOW, is your first initiation costing 10 karma (base) or 13?

[BlackHat]

Also, what does everyone think of team lifestyles? If we all lived at the agency's HQ, and pooled our resources, between the 27 PCs, we could make even a luxury lifestyle cost a little more than a high lifestyle per PC (13,704 nuyen, if we split it evenly). Someone (presumably, the Director of the Agency, or the Agency, itself) would have to be the tenant of record... meh, its an idea. It really only pays off if everyone wanted to commit to having all 3 of their characters chip in for the same level of lifestyle as everyone else.

Heck, if we called it a High lifestyle, we'd be paying 1,370 nuyen a month. That's a steal!