IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Death to Dice Pools!, Why do we bother with these things?
bwdemon
post Dec 18 2003, 01:00 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 139
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl
Member No.: 1,200



I've fought long and hard over the dice pool issue. I hate the way combat pool works and is determined, how all pools refresh, and their overall distortion of reality in the game. So I say it's time for a change.

Option 1: Use an attribute + skill system. Every skill already has a defining attribute, so just limit the maximum added attribute dice to the skill rating, kill the pools altogether, and you're set. I'd keep KP, for the rerolls and other functions, but everything else would go.

Option 2: Pools only refresh once per scene or day. I hated that SR3 cut down pool refresh from every action in a turn to every turn (it killed the value of speed). However, taking it to this extreme makes players really choose how and when they want to allocate their pool dice, instead of automatically dumping them each action.

Option 3: The only pool is karma pool. KP is a reflection of the character's experience, so why not use it? The greener-than-grass newbie won't be throwing around a whole lot more than his skill under most conditions, but that's not a bad thing. The hardened veteran will have a few tricks up his sleeve that he can pull out from time to time.

I'm partial to #3, myself. These don't include task pools and other things of that sort, granted specifically by 'ware or magic, just the standard pools. What are your thoughts on these? Have any other methods that you prefer?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cray74
post Dec 18 2003, 01:25 PM
Post #2


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,428
Joined: 9-June 02
Member No.: 2,860



I like the dice pools. They're an interesting and unusual way to add extra effort here and there in combat, and very quick and playable (for me; YMMV). And as for distortion of reality, dice pools are no more warped than the rest of the SR combat/skill system. The ability to add more effort into certain attacks or dodges is certainly a nice reflection of reality, IMO, not a distortion.

So I'll take option 4: keep the dice pools as written.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dashifen
post Dec 18 2003, 01:58 PM
Post #3


Technomancer
********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,638
Joined: 2-October 02
From: Champaign, IL
Member No.: 3,374



The change to pools that I've concidered doing is to split the combat pool into a dodge pool and a combat pool. Probably just for newbie games where having the seperate numbers would help to lessen the confusion over when and why to use the combat pool.

Also, I hate trying to figure out when pools refresh when you're not in combat. Usually I just say that if you're not in combat you get your whole pool whenever you want it, but it always seems to breed people who are rolling 13+ dice for spells or whatever outside of combat. While it's not a major problem, it always seems like people are a little too powerful when they can use all of the pools in one shot, but my group and I have never reconciled how the pools are to refresh.

-- Dash --
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phelious fogg
post Dec 18 2003, 03:08 PM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 555
Joined: 11-August 03
Member No.: 5,408



A mage not using spell defence during a run is a stupid mage, hit him with something unexpected, its fun
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yum Donuts
post Dec 18 2003, 03:13 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 228
Joined: 7-December 03
Member No.: 5,883



The pools are actually representing a large portion of your ability. think about the guy who has never been trained how to fight, but can hold his own, he's not just defaulting to strength, he's using combat pool. and how would you fight deffensively or offensively without combat pool (don't say manuvers, the offensive ones suck)? if you pour all your dice into one hit, that represents where your focus is at that time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phelious fogg
post Dec 18 2003, 03:21 PM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 555
Joined: 11-August 03
Member No.: 5,408



Personaly I tend to get shot at a lot, so using combat pool to dodge is a godsend, or my characters would all be dead ten times from sunday. Out of combat, you cant use combat pool, so thats moot. The only other pool to worry about is hacking pool and spell pool? Well, in both cases using them denotes putting your full concentration into what you are doing, relect that in game. A decker might be less away of IC that crop up, and now he is without hacking pool to fight them, great timing. Mages hit them with a spell, get them into combat, or such. If its really outside of a run, its not terribly important, because I imagine someone using a spell to heal a friend is goign to concentrate on it to the exclusion of all else anyways, so spell pool works. Remember to limit dice pools so they never get more dice than the skill gives them, .etc.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sphynx
post Dec 18 2003, 03:22 PM
Post #7


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,222
Joined: 11-October 02
From: Netherlands and Belgium
Member No.: 3,437



Shadowrun without Dice Pools? No thanks.

That's one of the best parts about Shadowrun, the symbolization that there's more to an effort than just skill. The ability to exceed your own limits by an inner-drive. The ability to choose how offensive/defensive you are in a situation.

Wouldn't be the same game, or even as fun of a game without the Pools.

Sphynx
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kage2020
post Dec 18 2003, 03:41 PM
Post #8


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 51
Joined: 30-August 03
Member No.: 5,555



I'd have to say that the dice pool seems, to me, to be an integral part of the 'feel' of the game. Strange as it may sound, to one gaming group I play with it is one of the single defining reasons that they enjoy the system. After playing AD&D for years on end and their actions being determined by the roll of a single dice, to suddenly be able to dip into this extra 'pool' was tactically quite intriguing for them. (That and the fact that they're were rolling a handful of dice rather than just that one.)

If you were to remove the dice pools, the chances are that I would move away from the 'many dice' option (i.e. linked attribute/skill providing a handful of dice) and go back to the one dice option for simplicity. Might even find myself re-adopting R. Talisorian Games' Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. and tweaking it for SR, or just going back to GURPS...

But that's just me.

Kage
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Dec 18 2003, 03:47 PM
Post #9


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



My only problem with Dice Pools is that they only exist for a handful of actions in the game. Basically, unless you're a Combat Monster, a Sorcerer, a Decker, or a Rigger, you're pretty much out of luck. Literally.

Sure, there's ways to get a minor Task Pool for a few other things, but characters like the Face, Private Investigator, and Conjurer pretty much get screwed when dealing with their primary abilities.

But other than that, I adore the Dice Pool system. It adds a lot of flavor to the gaming side of Shadowrun, and sometimes throwing dice is just really fun in and of itself. I don't see any problem with them whatsoever, aside from what I mentioned above.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yum Donuts
post Dec 18 2003, 03:54 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 228
Joined: 7-December 03
Member No.: 5,883



I used to think that too, Dr. F, especially while playing a face. but if the social dice pool would refresh as often as the other dice pools, you'd always have it, you're usually not doing 4 negotiations per 3 second combat turn.
conjurers may need a bit of something, but foci can give them that.

If you were going to give a social dice pool, it would have to refresh like karma pool, i.e. once every gaming session, rather than how the current dice pools work. that way if you REALLY need this one bit of info, you can get it, but it's not going to be a standard +5 dice to every roll.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Dec 18 2003, 04:00 PM
Post #11


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



Oh I agree, under the current rules such pools are a bit insane because the rest of the system was built around not having one. Same goes for a Conjuring Pool. But it still "feels" wrong compared to the rest of the system... especially since you can't adjust your offensive/defensive actions in other areas. You're pretty much limited to your Skills and Attributes, and that's that. Kinda dull compared to the gun bunny who gets to adjust how many dice he's throwing into his shot versus saving to dodge with.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yum Donuts
post Dec 18 2003, 04:04 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 228
Joined: 7-December 03
Member No.: 5,883



Oh my god.... we actually agreed on something, and with no sarcasm involved. I'm proud of us.

To anyone thinking of creating a social dice pool, however, the other problem is that NPCs have dice pools too. and if every NPC only has one interaction with the PCs, but the PCs have to interact with dozens of NPCs every run, then the face is going to have to split up his/her dice pool among all interactions, while each NPC applies their full social dice pool to every test against the PCs.
that gets old REAL quick.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
6thDragon
post Dec 18 2003, 04:08 PM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 266
Joined: 16-April 02
From: DC
Member No.: 2,605



I'm pretty sure SR3 did away with the social pool :( I liked it too. Well, I'd have to say I like the combat pool the way SR3 made it. To be honest that's how my group played it in SR2 anyway. Although we have made one additional houserule. Because we had players maxing out the dice from other sources (enhanced articulation, reflex recorders, ect), we limited the total dice that can be added to a role to the skill, not just the combat pool limit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dEdDaWg
post Dec 18 2003, 05:23 PM
Post #14


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 26-February 02
From: The Morgue
Member No.: 676



The only thing I don't quite like about Dice Pools is the way they are depleted.

To illustrate how silly things can get, let's say a cyber-mage is being attacked by a spirit. If said character had enough actions he could say use his Combat Pool to dodge an in coming attack, taking a few steps back. Then shoot the spirit using his chipped ActiveSoft with CED, using Task Pool. Then defend again using a second chipped skill with CED (this is a separate chipjack and CED), using a another set of Task Pool. Then cast a spell, using his Spell pool. Then head into astral and engaging the spirit in astral combat, using his Astral Combat Pool.

Granted, the character has to have one freaking good roll on his initiative, but it's not within the realm of impossiblity.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sidekick
post Dec 18 2003, 06:24 PM
Post #15


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 97
Joined: 17-March 03
Member No.: 4,269



QUOTE (dEdDaWg)
The only thing I don't quite like about Dice Pools is the way they are depleted.

To illustrate how silly things can get, let's say a cyber-mage is being attacked by a spirit. If said character had enough actions he could say use his Combat Pool to dodge an in coming attack, taking a few steps back. Then shoot the spirit using his chipped ActiveSoft with CED, using Task Pool. Then defend again using a second chipped skill with CED (this is a separate chipjack and CED), using a another set of Task Pool. Then cast a spell, using his Spell pool. Then head into astral and engaging the spirit in astral combat, using his Astral Combat Pool.

Granted, the character has to have one freaking good roll on his initiative, but it's not within the realm of impossiblity.

Defense, except in the case of Melee, are dodge tests which rely on combat pool and only combat (well that is that rule in CC involving athletics but that takes a complex action)

I am fine with Combat pools, since they are only for combat. But as someone mentioned, Decker and Mages can be pumping their pools in their outside actions all the time. I had an odd idea tha Mages and Deckers can in combat convert their Combat Pool into Spell/Hacking pool, but normally they have none. I would probably have a rule you could only up to your Magic/INT in these pools (hence preventing the twinked out cyber mages from having 9 spell pool). This converting represents tossing your efforts into these actions instead of combat... so, you cast a spell with a nice pool bonus, you probably won't be able to dodge next turn since all your concentration is focused on casting.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phelious fogg
post Dec 18 2003, 06:41 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 555
Joined: 11-August 03
Member No.: 5,408



Social Pool: (Charisma + Willpower)/3
Uses: To aid any social roll, or to resist any social roll. Refereshes at a rate of 1 die every 30 in game minutes. That might be a good thing in game, as most badguys wont have much, and when you have something important you need it for (a meet with a johnson or such) then you are still on even grounds.

Also, you might want to house rool the use of only a maximum of two pools at a time (i.e. combat and spell, combat and task, CED and spell, CED and other CED, etc.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crimson Jack
post Dec 18 2003, 07:21 PM
Post #17


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,129
Joined: 11-June 03
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 4,712



QUOTE (Dashifen)
Also, I hate trying to figure out when pools refresh when you're not in combat. Usually I just say that if you're not in combat you get your whole pool whenever you want it, but it always seems to breed people who are rolling 13+ dice for spells or whatever outside of combat. While it's not a major problem, it always seems like people are a little too powerful when they can use all of the pools in one shot, but my group and I have never reconciled how the pools are to refresh.

A good general rule of thumb is to let them refresh at the end of a scene. If someone is using their social pool at a meet, let them use the pool for the meet and then let it refresh after the handshake/bow/slap in the face. Even using hard'n'fast rules might not make sense sometimes, so we use a house rule that quite simply states: GM decides when pools refresh unless in combat. This saves lots of headaches and makes things easy for all.

Regarding the topic: I love dice pools. As others have stated, I think they give SR an edge over other games. With the plethora of d20 clones on the market, its great to see that SR has remained the same with their winning system.

Doesn't seem realistic? I think it mirrors reality better than other systems to be honest. The dice pool system gives me a feeling of how people tend to excel when they know that they need to. I've been in a few real life situations before where I knew that I needed to stay focused or there would be a moderate-to-dire result if I didn't pay attention. That would've been my dice pool kicking in.

I can appreciate that its hard to get used to, but it's just too damn cool and original to not use.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bwdemon
post Dec 18 2003, 07:27 PM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 139
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl
Member No.: 1,200



It seems like a lot of people read the topic and skip the post. I absolutely hate the current pool system, but two of my proposed remedies include the use of pools. One uses karma pool only and the other restricts refresh to end-of-scene for all pools.

Does it seem at all realistic that a person can double their trained ability to do anything by throwing in pool dice? Does it seem at all realistic that someone in melee combat gets no bonus for being strong (battering down defenses) or durable (untiring), but does get bonus dice for being intelligent or strong-willed? I don't think so, but maybe I'm in the minority.

What of the options I proposed in the initial post?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cray74
post Dec 18 2003, 07:49 PM
Post #19


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,428
Joined: 9-June 02
Member No.: 2,860



QUOTE (bwdemon)
It seems like a lot of people read the topic and skip the post. I absolutely hate the current pool system, but two of my proposed remedies include the use of pools. One uses karma pool only and the other restricts refresh to end-of-scene for all pools.


As I said in my first post, I liked the current system and found it adequately realistic. I posted my option as opinion 4 because I meant to imply (without bluntly saying it) that none of your ideas worked for me.

QUOTE
Does it seem at all realistic that a person can double their trained ability to do anything by throwing in pool dice?


Sure. A trained professional can do casually what novices struggle to do; when a professional concentrates, they can do impressive things.

QUOTE
  Does it seem at all realistic that someone in melee combat gets no bonus for being strong (battering down defenses) or durable (untiring), but does get bonus dice for being intelligent or strong-willed?


Stronger people batter down defenses better than weak ones. Notice how a stronger person better defeats impact armor with a melee attack because the power of the attack is dependent on their strength. Does strength directly influence combat pools? No, but it's influence is still felt on combat pools. Consider a weakling (strength 2) with 6 skill and 6 combat pool: they'll get a highly accurate punch that can't batter down any defenses. A strength 6 orc with lower skill and combat pool, on the other hand, will be able to do more damage with a melee attack simply because if/when he hits, he's more likely to defeat defences (impact armor).

As for the attributes that directly affect combat pool, that's about the only place they CAN manifest. How else do you model the ability to accurately place a punch (quickness) at a spot determined by a careful, quick assessment of the opponent's vulnerabilities (intelligence) while staying focused despite the distractions of combat (willpower)? Might as well be combat pool. Strength gets its day in the sun in the damage codes, while intelligence and strong will appear in the combat pool.

And given the short period of most SR combats, fatigue is rarely an issue. However, durability definitely manifests in the ability to shrug off damage, including fatigue-type mental damage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 07:48 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.