Beginning Shadowrunner Needs Advice..., Chargen Theory 101? Options

[Rad]

I've been playing various RPGs for many years, but I'm still new to shadowrun. One differance I've noticed about the characters in SR4 is that they seem to be created with little room left for advancement in their primary abilities.

Mages are an exception, with initiation allowing them to raise magic pretty much indefinitely, but most mundane builds I see--including the sample characters--are pretty close to the maximum in their primary stats and skills right out of chargen.

For example, the street samurai on page 101 of the BBB (kudos to whoever arranged that, by the way) has his Agility, Automatics, and Unarmed Combat all at one point shy of their natural maximums--and he's already got some 'ware boosting those dicepools as well.

There's still some room for improvment through better equiptment, but it seems to me karma isn't going to make this guy much better at shooting or beating things up than he already is. Maybe +4 dice total, which averages out to a little more than 1 additional hit on tests?

That's another question I have. It seems like even with a thouroughly maxed-out dicepool, the total number of hits you're likely to get are obscenely low. A starting character with a skill and attribute of 5 is going to roll 10 dice, averaging a little more than 3 hits. Even at the upper limit, an average of 5-6 hits seems about all you can hope for, without spending edge. Considering how many things in SR4 are opposed tests dependent on net hits for the result, I have a hard time seeing how you can accomplish much of anything unless your opponent either rolls poorly or is seriously outclassed.

Since I'm going to be starting my first game soon, I wanted to get some input from more experienced players about how character design and advancement works in SR4. Is it normal to be "the best of the best" right out of the can and improve through gear and diversification rather than continuing to boost your primary abilities? Or do characters just not live that long in shadowrun? The rules seem to make improving your character through karma a much slower process than other rpgs, and the combat system is incredibly lethal, so are shadowrun characters just not expected to live long enough to get more than one or two bumps to their attributes/skills?

More importaintly, if I try to play a character who isn't a horribly min/maxed specialist (by other RPG's standards) is he going to get his hoop kicked and/or be absolutely useless compared to everyone else in the game? At what point does a character's dicepool hit the "you shouldn't be trying to do this" range?

For a system that claims to have no character classes, it sure seems hard to design anything other than a dedicated "hacker", "rigger", "face" or "ass-kicker" and maintain decent dicepools--though I guess that preserves the desperate, bleeding-edge feel of the game. ie: You've got to do one thing, and do it better than anybody else--you ain't got time for other interests.

[Aiolos Turin]

Me and my group tried to fight off against a bigger group of equally skilled goons. Me and my nephew have a campaign going and were facing off 2v4 equally skilled opponents. We learned quickly the reality of combat.
Straight up face-to-face, when 2 people are facing a group of 4, all having about the same power (or even the 2 being more powerful) the 4 is almost indefinitely going to win, even if one of the 2 characters kicks the crap out of the 4 goons.
Likewise, when returning to finish the job, using ambush tactics slaughtered the 4 incredibly easily. Ambush, called shots, dice pool modifiers.

The Lesson: Dice Modifiers. Dice Modifiers. Dice Modifiers.

Take melee combat for example.
Lets say both characters only have 4 dice. 4v4 Opposed test.
Player 1 Charges at Player 2, +2 dice (now 6v4) that is a big difference. An average of 2 hits vs an average of 1 1/3 hit. Two dice make a huge difference.

Another Lesson: Knockdown. It's so easy, it's like checkers!

All it takes to knock down is to do damage equal to their body.
What happens in melee when one player is knocked down? It's so easy! A simple knockdown and 4v4 dicepools change drastically.
Player 1 knocks down Player 2- then on the next round- rather with quick/lucky initiative or Player 2's inability to stand up (Willpower+Body (2) Failure! Two hits is hard to get sometimes!), Player 1 attacks in melee Player 2, who is knocked down prone.
4v4 dice opposed test.
Opponent Prone +3 dice. 7v4.
Defender prone -2. Now 7v2.

Just for the sole fact the attacker is in melee with a prone defender, It's +3 dice for attacker, -2 for defender, changing 4v4 to 7v2. Insane!!! All it takes to do damage is 1 net hit.
In fact, if the Attacker also has a weapon with 2 reach, he can apply a -2 modifier to the defender, reducing the defenders dice to 0, causing it to be a success test instead of a opposed test- and one of 7 dice. Do a call shot of 4DV -4 dice, and you have 3 dice (1 hit average) which results in your melee weapon DV + 4 DV + 1 nethit. An average melee weapon of Str/2 + 2 and average str of 3, results in 4DV + 4DV + 1 net hit = 9 DV. This will do significant damage, and with the wound modifiers that are sure to follow, the opponent is totally screwed. Even if you only land 6DV, if the situation doesnt change, that will give the attacker 9v0 next round, instead of 7v0.

My point is that dice pool modifiers, situations, and using one's brain is incredibly big. That even if it destroys your dice to only 1 die roll- it can still help immensely when facing down a troll with 5 agility and 5 firearm skill. 1 hit is a big deal, but so is 1 dice...but at the same time sometimes it doesn't matter. Even 3 dice doesn't guarantee that big of a success. One player can roll 3 dice and get 2 hits, and another roll 6 dice and get 0- it is not that uncommon to have this happen.

Ive had over half the battles in my shadowruns turn out to be the 6 dicepool character having 0 hits, while the 3 dice character gets 2 hits, and since even 1 hit is a huge deal- you suddenly learn you arent all-powerful just because you min-max. In fact, even if I had a highly skilled 5/5 player with first initiative against only 2 typical 3/3 goons, the goons have an incredibly high chance of winning just because they outnumber him 2:1 and the PC isn't smart enough to use smart tactics. Shadowrun definitely takes some combat experience to learn that cover is incredibly vital, knockdown, prone, and modifiers are a huge deal. Melee combat is wicked because of the crazy modifiers, and the fact it takes a complex action- so with only one IP- if you're knocked down you lose your entire combat turn bc it takes a simple action to get up, and a wasted simple action because you cant run (interception- you'd get hit and probably die) nor can you attack (requires complex action). Even if you're prone and decide to pull out a weapon and fire in melee- it is very dangerous. The melee attacker gets +3/-2 against you because you failed to get up, and you suffer a -3 for being in melee trying to shoot your gun. If you miss that first shot instead of getting up, you're screwed.

Most important things, mainly Opposed Tests, require no more than 1 net hit. Any extra is just icing on the cake. That single 1 extra hit can mean the difference between inflicting -1 or -2 wound modifiers, which results in a spiral of downhill dicepool modifiers that quickly add up to destroy a player's otherwise high dicepool. One hit is a lot, as even with 9 dice you only get 3 hits on average- but 3 hits is A LOT. That can turn a DV from 4 to 7. That can be just enough to provide enough damage to knock down your opponent or send him to the negative wound modifiers. This results in modifiers up your opponent's butt, destroying his dicepool to nothing in no-time at all. But having a high dicepool, even if the opponent has a low dice pool, doesnt mean much. The modifiers really stack up fast. Even if you're wounded -3 from 4 to 1 dice, if they only have 3 reaction and suffer -3 bc of modifiers or if you choose to fire BF/FA with recoil compensation, they cant even defend. One single hit can send them to the graveyard with a bullet in their brain. My nephew was fighting 1v2, and was rolling high- and almost knocked one of the two goons unconscious- but it only took one successful hit to knock him down, and it being 2v1, even with him having kicked one goon's butt to -3 dice, the modifiers alone made it nearly impossible for him to win the fight. So all his glorious successes for half the battle was ended with just ONE net hit.

I noticed that 400 pts is insanely low for a real character. Even if you dont have any high stats or skills, just having a lot of skills drains those BP too quickly. The starting characters? Severely gimped in a ton of ways. No social skills or contacts? You're screwed. Shadowrun is a massively social game. Low Logic? Your character wont have the intelligence to realize "Robbing the gun store with a knife" is a bad idea. Low Charisma? It's way too easy for NPC's to convince your character to do something stupid. You have 6 etiquette and firearms? That wont help you get the vital information you need. No shadowing or infiltration? Everyone will know you followed them.

Realistically, atleast IMO, to be a good Shadowrunner, you should possess atleast 1 in almost every skill. Your stats will beef these up so you atleast have 4 dice, which is enough to even tango with the elite 10 dicepool players. Even 1 skill pt in Intimidation can be a huge deal- even if a 1 intimidate 3 charisma (4 dice) is trying to intimidate a 5 charisma 5 intimidation vampire. You dont have that 1 pt and you default at -1 modifier, shrinking what could have been 4 dicepool to only 2 dice. Stack the modifiers in your favor, and you can really do well.

A good GM should show players that min-maxing doesn't fly in a realistic RPG. It's far better to have 4 agility and 4 charisma than to have 6 agility and 2 charisma. Sure you might get +2 dice in shooting people, but you're really going to suffer in social situations, which happen more often than combat. And it's not very fun to have one character be "The Face", charm everyone over, and when combat comes around you get shot up with negative dice modifiers, turning your "ass-kicker" into an "ass-sucker" who, because he's only good at combat, just ONE faillure can make him worthless to the team, while the Face with more of a variety of skills (Combat and Social) hogs all the glory.

You have 6 agility and 6 longarms and 6 heavy weapons? Congratulations! Anytime you're unable to carry around an assault cannon (which is 99% of the time), YOU SUCK! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Have some palming- even if only for the sole purpose of concealing your shotgun behind your Lined Coat successfully- and that can mean the difference between having a heavy weapon in a pistol firefight or not. In most gun fights, just like in real life, pistols are crap compared to a real weapon like a rifle or smg. Check out the pistol ranges. Anything beyond 5 meters, and you suffer a -1 range modifier. Want to use your smartlink or vision magnification to zoom in and negate the -1, -2, or -3 range modifier? That takes up a simple action- one that could have been used to fire your gun a second time.

[Rad]

Hmm, thanks alot for all the advice.

I've always preferred more rounded characters, since I myself have a wide range of interests and skills. But like you said, it's very hard to make a well-rounded (ie: not hamstrung) character with only 400bp--I was getting worried that the builds I'm making wouldn't hold up, since they generally sacrifice excellence in one area for competence in many.

I'll just have to play them smart, and fight dirty. Good. I'm not a die-hard strategist, but I always like getting vicious when I have to. Comes from studying martial arts IRL: You don't fight fair if you want to survive.

I'd still appreciate any input other people have on the subject. Part of the reason I'm in such a spot is that I'm joining a group one session late, and everybody else already picked combat monster characters, leaving me stuck with the role of hacker and face. Being good at both of those is hard enough, but I'll be dammed if I'm going to be a combat liability.

But smart and brutal? I can play that.

At the moment I'm looking at an ork adept with exceptional charisma--largely a modification of the Face from the BBB. I figure I can use adept powers to shore up weaknesses in his combat and social abilities, and rely on kickass gear and agents to compensate for his less-than-uber matrix-fu.

He won't be the top dog in any of these areas, but he'll be okay, so if I play him smarter and dirtier than the NPC's, he should do alright. I'm hedging my bets by focusing on survivability, expecting him to get messed up but pull through and come back stronger once I can dump some karma on him. Basically, if my plans work out, he'll be the little push that turns the tide before being overwhelmed--but lives to do it all again next tuesday.

I should probably give him more edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[noonesshowmonkey]

I am not really sure why there are two posts titled this... but whatever.

Luckily for you a Hacker can be built with very little character investment outside of cash given the standard rules for hacking. If you invest enough nuyen in your commlink and programs you should be able to do enough of the nitty gritty hacking to be useful in that capacity. Being a face, well, having enough social skills to get by, can just boil down to the Influence group bought at 4 or so matched with a 5 charisma and pheremones / specializations bought later.

In my experience among new players one of the most overlooked aspects of character design is that of contacts. By choosing the right contacts and investing your BP wisely in them you can compensate for a lot of the poorer aspects of a character. If you you want a face that specializes in interrogation but not negotiating the best price on gear, get a high level Fence contact. If your hacker only knows how to break into a node for a quick smash and grab but knows very little about software design then get a super-nerdy hacker type to give you advice on network or software design and assist you on legwork. If your group really needs a medic but can't afford the build points grab a high level street doc or invest in a Doc Wagon contract or maybe both. Contacts are one of the best methods of making up for the weaknesses of a character.

As far as your group mates being combat monsters *yawn*. If your GM pushes the game towards any kind of social encounter (and let me tell you, 85% of the game is generally social and legwork based) you will be doing a lot more than the rest of your players who have hand grenades shoved up their anus waiting for the chance to murmaider some poor corp guards and end up on the evening news.

Generally speaking if you can pick up 10-14 dice to set to a task at chargen you are just fine. Thats more than enough to ensure that you should be very good at that task if the GM is scaling the difficulty level in parity with the system (3 - 3 being a base attribute / skill etc.). 12 dice is twice as good as ye civilianne.

[De Badd Ass]

Hmm, thanks alot for all the advice.

...me stuck with the role of hacker and face. Being good at both of those is hard enough, but I'll be dammed if I'm going to be a combat liability.

Make your Hacker / Face a TROLL. No matter how bad he sucks at combat, he won't be a liability. No matter how bad he sucks at hacking, who's going to say anything? The only one he has to impress is himself.

An intimidating face... why not?

[Rad]

Yeah, but the way trolls suck at charisma, and how much they cost--orks are the answer for a cheap strength/body boost. If I didn't need this guy to have a personality, I'd go troll all the way.

About the double post--sorry. The wifi spot I'm using has been acting weird, must have glitched it.

I'm definitely using contacts with this guy. He may not be the baddest hacker or fighter--but he knows a couple guys who might have claim to that title. If he's got to cut them in to bail his ass out, so be it.

I'm mainly going for "surprise asskick" here. He's a human-looking Orc, and with his stats looks more pretty boy than bad ass. The idea is, people won't peg him as a fighter or a hacker off the bat--just a face, and not a great one. Underestimating him that way gives him an advantage.

[masterofm]

Are they just pure combat monkeys? What other sub skills do they have?

Have you considered picking up demo as a skill to "hold your own?" It's amazing what some C4 will do to anything or anyone if set up properly. Also it will tie into your logic, which you will need for hacking. I recommend buying your logic up to 4 and maybe getting cerebral boosters 2 (and maybe get 3 later.) That will push your logic up to 6 w/o having to pay hefty BP and give some more fleshing out of your character. Like the first person to reply said 1st strike is crucial in SR. Everyone is generally running around with very large hammers breaking very fragile eggs. Demo is pretty handy to cause distractions, kill people, destroy walls or buildings (and you don't really need it all that high.)

The other thing you could really look into for your character that I would really recommend is to also try being a rigger as well. As a hacker you are kind of half way there towards rigging and allows you to protect them fairly well from being hacked. Also they work as a nice debuff on an enemies dodge pool. Their programs are not too pricey, and in the end the more money you get the more flexible you can become in combat. Tricking your drones out with grenade launchers? Sniper rifles? Ingram White Knights? Armor piercing rounds? The sky is the limit. It will also let you tie more skills into your logic stat instead of your physical stats, since it seems your team has enough of that.

[Rad]

Well, part of it is finding a character I want to play. I'd rather not have the team fall flat on it's face just because nobody wanted to play one--but I'm not going to sacrifice my fun just to cover for them.

Honestly, I'd rather not even approach the SR4 hacking rules my first time out, considering what I've heard of them, and taking an indirect route to combat just doesn't do it for me. I don't want a character who has to run and hide while the big boys play--or worse, wait in the van like a five year old.

I do have a character that uses explosives--a pyromaniac mystic adept who runs a demolition business as a cover--but that just wasn't the route I wanted to go here.

The direction I seem to be headed in is a sort of "street face", with some hand to hand and pistol skills from his gritty upbringing, and a little bit of tech savy gleaned from more experience hackers. He's probably going to rely mainly on gear/agents/contacts for the hacking, until he gets a chance to polish his skills some more. The trouble is figuring out how to balance those three areas and maintain some degree of effectiveness. Obviously he's going to have to try harder/smarter/meaner and stack up those modifiers to get an edge.

[Ryu]

Play an ork with an ethnic background not present in the group so far. Judging from my group, hispanic will be a good choice. Call it a very weak form of a network of contacts.

One tour of duty in the military can provide most of the skills you might want / can get at 400 BP. Your one attempt at getting your own ass of the street, after previously being some kind of mini-fixer. Now you are back (unhonourable discharge?)

Look at Firearms 2 / Influence 4 / Electronics 3 / Stealth 2 / Athletics 1 / Outdoors 1 as a base, and consider starting with less than 200 BP in attributes. Cracking is notably absent, because at low levels of hacking you can use a mook instead. Bio-muscles and synthacardium are anyones friend; Martial Arts I (your choice, Sweep and Throw as Maneuvers) might be interesting, too.

Ork: 20 BP, Attributes 170+, Skills 130+, Ressources 50... should be workable. Interested in doing a complete build?

[sunnyside]

A note on all this. As a GM I essentially require all my players to make characters that are useful.

- In the legwork/planning stage
- During a run, but not in combat
- In combat
- And they have to have some stealth/infiltrate

They can be better or worse in some of the four as opposed to the others. But I don't like having players who can't operate in one. It means they go inactive in that part of the game and that's never a good thing. The absolute worst being having a pure combat guy because they'll screw up the others plans and efforts to get into fights.

Anyway I rather like SR4 for making it much easier to do this.

i.e. Cracking 4 Electronics 4 and basicallyer everything a hacker needs at rating 5 is about 100 BP.

Leaving 335 BP(presuming negative flaws), to build, say, a decent street sammy.

Ditto riggers with a VCR being an el cheapo add on instead of being pricey and essence heavy. Drones are also on the cheap and very usable tactically indoors these days.

As for your specific character for only ~20 BP you can have a very solid "Hacker in a box" going where you simply have a rating 5 agent do all the hacking for you. There are balancing downsides of this.

1. Your agents abilities will drop in lower rated nodes.
2. They are vulnerable to being spoofed.
3. If hosting the agent off your comlink (for portability), it can use one less program than if you were hacking yourself.
4. Using this that and the other you'd at least eventually be throwing more die.

But none of those are dealbreakers. So just go with that for now.

That leaves plenty of room to be a face that's also good in a fight.

[Mäx]

You have 6 agility and 6 longarms and 6 heavy weapons? Congratulations! Anytime you're unable to carry around an assault cannon (which is 99% of the time), YOU SUCK! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
WTF are you talking about, you do know that longarms also covers things like Sawed off shotguns witch you can carry with you most of the time.

[Rad]

Okay, I'm going to post the build as I have it now. It's definitely not finished, and I'm not happy some things about it, but I'm too tired to finish polishing so I'll let you guys take a crack at it while I get some sleep...

NAME: AKA: Rei
RACE: Ork [20]

-ATTRIBUTES- [210]

BODY: 4 [00]
AGILITY: 3 [20]
REACTION: 4 [30]
STRENGTH: 3 [00]
CHARISMA: 4 [30]
INTUITION: 5 [40]
LOGIC: 4 [30]
WILLPOWER: 4 [30]

MAGIC: 2 [10]
EDGE: 3 [20]

Essence: 6
Initiative: 9
Initiative Passes: 1
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10

-ACTIVE SKILLS- [126]

Athletics Skill Group 1 [10]
Dodge 3 [12]
(Ranged Combat) +2 [02]
Electronics Skill Group 1 [10]
Influence Skill Group 4 [40]
Intimidation 4 [16]
Perception 3 [12]
Pistols 2 [08]
(Light Pistols) +2 [02]
Unarmed Combat 3 [12]
(Parrying) +2 [02]

-KNOWLEDGE SKILLS- (27 Free) [0]

Skill ?

-LANGUAGE SKILLS-

Primary N

-QUALITIES- [+10]

Adept [+05]
Exceptional Attribute (Charisma) [+20]
First Impression [+05]
Human Looking [+05]

Addiction, Combat, Mild [-05]
Allergy, Pollen, Mild [-05]
Sensitive System [-15]

-ADEPT POWERS-

Counterstrike .5
Quick Draw .5

-GEAR- (50,000Â¥) [10]

Low Lifestyle (1 Month) 000,000Â¥

Yamaha Sakura Fubiki 2,000Â¥
Smartgun System 400Â¥

0Â¥ Remaining

Starting Nuyen: Xd6 x 0Â¥

-CONTACTS- [24]

Fixer (Connection 4/Loyalty 2)
Mr. Johnson (Connection 3/Loyalty 2)
Hacker (Connection 2/Loyalty 2)
Pit Fighter (Connection 2/Loyalty 3)
Weaponsmith (Connection 2/Loyalty 2)


----------------

The last three contacts are supposed to be personal freinds/aquaintances of various sorts. By which I mean they're people he met non-professionally, who happen to have skills/professions that could be useful to him in the shadows. He's hesitant to lean on them too much, hence the low loyalty. (ie: They're pals, but asking for professional help is stretching the normal bounds of their relationship a bit.)

The money is almost definitely not enough. The character's supposed to be pretty broke, (especially for a face) but the eqiptment and progams he'll need will probably require more cash from somewhere.

The "pollen" allergy is uncommon because it requires a whole lot to set it off, ie: he's fine in urban environments, but stick him in the middle of a field or a big greenhouse and he starts sneezing.

Human Looking quality is important to the character. Also the focus on intuiton over logic, even though that's bad for a tech-guy.

The general feel of this guy is he's from a lower social class than the BBB face--or at least shows his origins more. Tends to be charming and intellectual--but with a primal side and a love of combat that pops up and derails him from time to time. Can be downright viscious when he has to be, because that's how he grew up, and suprisingly tough given his exterior and personality.

[sunnyside]

Well first thing I think in trying to make the char shoehorning in the adept thing isn't working so well for you. However I think you stated that you don't want to go down the easier wares path. Also the Orc thing isn't really doing you any favors once you pay for exceptional charisma and human looking.

Some advice to tighten and rearange.

1. Ditch the specializations. Not that specs are bad. Just they're cheaper to buy with in game karma, and you could probably pick them up after your first session or two.

+6 BP

2. Fill up on flaws. As above see if there isn't something fun you could add that your GM might like. I dunno. Southern code (speak with an accent, have to protect the ladies even when it isn't smart, maybe throw in some bigotries that coudl be a problem). Or just pick something.

+10

3. Drop dodge. Use gymnastics from the athletics group since you have it already

+12

4. Johnson is kinda redundant. Evaluate how useful that is.
+5

5. Your char really isn't that techy. Have the rest of the team and you pitch together for a decent hacker in a box system to use on runs. Or pay to have the hacker come along. If you'd rather go techy cnsider instead dropping the adpet bit. Anyway if you go this way drop logic by 2 and drop electronics group

+30

So now you're at 63 BP left over.

I'd suggest.
-softmax agility
-softmax magic (even after the errata I like the stat boost powers, cheap and if you expect a situation you can buff up your agility nicely, and/or something else, there's a lot you can do with that)
-take pistols, perception, and unarmed up to 4 (or stealth group 1, very useful, just stack the modifiers or boost your stat before trying something)
-5,000 extra in cash, I'd get some runner basics. Basic armor, comlink, taser, that sort of thing.

[Ryu]

With all the sacrifices you are already making (no implants, minimal magic), you really should go heavily into skills. Edge is a toss-up - you will need it due to low pools, but it is not the best of investments if you are lacking in primary attributes.

RACE: Ork [20]

ATTRIBUTES- [180]
[10]BODY: 5
[10]AGILITY: 2
[30]REACTION: 4
[20]STRENGTH: 5
[20]CHARISMA: 3
[40]INTUITION: 5
[10]LOGIC: 2
[30]WILLPOWER: 4
[00]MAGIC: 1
[10]EDGE: 2

-ACTIVE SKILLS- [158]

[30] Group: Athletics 3
[10] Group: Electronics 1
[40] Group: Influence 4
[18] Intimidation 4 (mental +2)
[20] Perception 5
[18] Pistols 4 (semi-auto +2)
[22] Unarmed Combat 5 (martial arts +2)

-QUALITIES- [balanced]
[+05] Adept
[+05] First Impression
[+05] Human Looking
[+10] Martial Arts 2

[-05] Addiction, Combat, Mild
[-05] Allergy, Pollen, Mild
[-15] Sensitive System

-ADEPT POWERS-
Combat Sense 1 .5
Quick Draw .5

-GEAR- (50,000Â¥) [10]
-CONTACTS- [24]
Martial Arts Maneuvers: [8]

Logic gains you little unless you are using the optional logic+skill matrix rules, more so with an electronics skill of 1. Higher strength is useful for athletics and close combat. Due to the mechanics of SR4, starting without magic, augmentations and skill is a bit suicidal in a group of combat monsters. You are getting a long-term option (magic) and a net gain of 10 BP out of the promise not to use implants. Ever. If you want to go that route, consider where you will end with 4 additional points of magic, and make that a solid position. You will have to accept that the next 100-200 karma points will go into attributes.

[BullZeye]

I really like the way SR actually has the character creation and character improvement during game. You can create a real pro right from the start, but there's still some room for advancement. Especially mages and technomancers have lots of ways to make the char better with karma where mundanes have more limited possibilities. One of the players in my group makes the chars so that attributes are selected so that those that she needs right from the start are high while those that aren't that important are low. With karma it's easy to raise attributes when they are low enough even after few sessions.

One thing that still puzzles me is that why people prefer making those "Jack of all trades" characters or have skills that are linked with their weak attributes. A hacker with high mental stats and high points in athletics makes to me not much sense. Low mental attribute combat troll having high skillpoints in logic and charisma linked skills is odd bird, too. Knowledge skills are a handy way to make the char more broadband, same as contacts, but what's the point investing points to all kinds of skills? Of course for mages and technomancers, skillsofts aren't an option but for the rest, it's an easy way to compensate. Not everyone can infiltrate or talk to people. That's the reason to form a group, isn't it? With a group with not much overlapping abilities, the combined skill level is usually much higher. Problem on this is the fact that then only few (or just one) character is able to pull off whatever specific task while the others are for backup but not for the action itself.

Shadowrunners are the people who go up against professionals and eat them for breakfast. One can rely on luck only up till some point so either you got to have skills or the brains to survive longer, preferably both. - But that's just my point of view (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

One thing that still puzzles me is that why people prefer making those "Jack of all trades" characters or have skills that are linked with their weak attributes. A hacker with high mental stats and high points in athletics makes to me not much sense. Low mental attribute combat troll having high skillpoints in logic and charisma linked skills is odd bird, too. Knowledge skills are a handy way to make the char more broadband, same as contacts, but what's the point investing points to all kinds of skills? Of course for mages and technomancers, skillsofts aren't an option but for the rest, it's an easy way to compensate. Not everyone can infiltrate or talk to people. That's the reason to form a group, isn't it? With a group with not much overlapping abilities, the combined skill level is usually much higher. Problem on this is the fact that then only few (or just one) character is able to pull off whatever specific task while the others are for backup but not for the action itself.

That's called making believable characters that might have realistically survived to start of the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Ryu]

One thing that still puzzles me is that why people prefer making those "Jack of all trades" characters or have skills that are linked with their weak attributes. A hacker with high mental stats and high points in athletics makes to me not much sense. Low mental attribute combat troll having high skillpoints in logic and charisma linked skills is odd bird, too. Knowledge skills are a handy way to make the char more broadband, same as contacts, but what's the point investing points to all kinds of skills? Of course for mages and technomancers, skillsofts aren't an option but for the rest, it's an easy way to compensate. Not everyone can infiltrate or talk to people. That's the reason to form a group, isn't it? With a group with not much overlapping abilities, the combined skill level is usually much higher. Problem on this is the fact that then only few (or just one) character is able to pull off whatever specific task while the others are for backup but not for the action itself.

Thats also called "being able to survive until greatness is achieved".

The abilities of a group as a whole are often limited by the weakest runner, rather than provided by the best. So hyper-specialisation is a reason to divide the group while keeping it together.

Many games focus on combat (been there, done that), because everyone can do combat, but only some have the infiltration/con/athletics skills to pursue other ways around security.

[BullZeye]

Dang, I ment to say on the first post AND, not OR... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
The Jack of all trades is, as mentioned: "being able to survive until greatness is achieved". & "making believable characters that might have realistically survived to start of the game" But...
What's the point in the linked attribute mixes? Low charisma character with bit more points invested in cha linked skills is bit odd to me. One or so points for the sake of knowing how to barter or alike I can understand but to spend bit more I have hard time comprehending. Usually people do what their bodies and minds are capable of. A strong but dumb man might do some manual labor and a smart guy with health issues manages well as a professor for example. But sometimes there's Cha2 characters with 4 points in social group making them deacent talkers, but still uncharismatic. A character with low logic can be a really good in logic linked skills but why would he have ever spent time to learn something like it, more than basics?

Splitting the group is most often the only way to do stuff anyway. The problem, if one thinks it's a problem, is that when split, some have nothing to do while others get all the fun. Matrix and Astral are the two places where the split happens almost every time anyway.

Guess it's good thing I have to always lead the games instead of make a char for meself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) that thing what I mentioned is the "problem" of my group. For example we got a stealth specialist who has dicepool of 6 on infiltration and shadowing, the rigger has to get out of the car and run to the door when team has to open a door without making too much noise... minor things like that, that makes me wonder about char creation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[masterofm]

Let me change up your character a little bit if you don't mind. Ok well first off since your character only has 1 IP step one is to get some jazz. Take the Exceptional Attribute out as a quality. In the end it is really not worth it considering that you are already not using it in your starting out bp. It might also be worth taking out the athletics skill group. In the end raise your magic to five with the bp that you have freed up. Also drop the specializations as mentioned by a previous poster. Remove the Johnson from the list (the fixer is the one who sets you up with the Johnson) and change the pit fighter to something else since you have enough combat monkeys in your party. Something like maybe a cyber/bioware doc or maybe someone who sells combat drugs, because your probably going to need them. With the 11 bp you have gained sink that into (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) so you can have a point to play for cyber or bioware. With the extra 55k you could get r3 skillwires 6k, a data jack 500. Spend maybe 30-36k in activesofts to basically get your athletics skill group back (except this time with more dice,) and can take unarmed combat r3 as well. This will mean you also will have 12.5-18.5k to drop into some bioware. Also low lifestyle also costs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) so you might want to buy at least one month of it. Drop the counter strike, or quick draw and you can add some points into your social pool with kenesics (sp?) The last suggestion is you can play around with your magic a bit, but you might want to considering using some of it to raise your IP's a bit (and the plus side is it also adds to your reaction as well w/o effecting the hardcap.)

In the end for your character I would not suggest Unarmed Combat 3. He does not seem like a power house character and with his low IPs he will get one swing and do minimal damage to the target. Try for another skill group if you want. You could either boost the electronic skill group, get a new skill with it. However the game lets you take one skill at 6 or two at five so you could actually distribute the points so that your perception is 5 and intimidation is 5, which is what I would highly recommend.


NAME: AKA: Rei
RACE: Ork [20]

-ATTRIBUTES- [210]

BODY: 4 [00]
AGILITY: 3 [20]
REACTION: 4 (6) [30]
STRENGTH: 3 [00]
CHARISMA: 4 [30]
INTUITION: 5 [40]
LOGIC: 4 [30]
WILLPOWER: 4 [30]

MAGIC: 5 (4) [50]
EDGE: 3 [20]

Essence: 5.something
Initiative: 11
Initiative Passes: 3
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10

-ACTIVE SKILLS- [126]


Dodge 3 [12]
Electronics Skill Group 1 [10]
Influence Skill Group 4 [40]
Intimidation 5 [16]
Perception 5 [12]
Pistols 2 [08]


-KNOWLEDGE SKILLS- (27 Free) [0]

Skill ?

-LANGUAGE SKILLS-

Primary N

-QUALITIES- [+10]

Adept [+05]
First Impression [+05]
Human Looking [+05]

Addiction, Combat, Mild [-05]
Allergy, Pollen, Mild [-05]
Sensitive System [-15]

-ADEPT POWERS-

Kenesics level 2 (1)
Improved Reflexes level 2 (3)


-GEAR- (105,000Â¥) [21]

R3 skillwires 6,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Data jack 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
-Insert bioware here- 15,500ish (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Active softs
R3 unarmed combat 9,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
4xR2 for athletic skills 24,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Low Lifestyle (1 Month) 500Â¥

Yamaha Sakura Fubiki 2,000Â¥
Smartgun System 400Â¥

0Â¥ Remaining

Starting Nuyen: Xd6 x 0Â¥



-CONTACTS- [24]

Fixer (Connection 4/Loyalty 2)
Hacker (Connection 2/Loyalty 2)
Weaponsmith (Connection 2/Loyalty 2)
Extra contact (Connection 3/Loyalty 2)

This is the rough version of your character. I roughly added in the changes so that it can give you some wiggle room if you care.

[ElFenrir]

If I recall, though-in the other thread, he mentioned the Unarmed Combat was part of the character. in that case, I'd vote to keep it. it's always good, IMO, to have SOMETHING to fall back on, anyway. But that's just my couple nuyen.

[imperialus]

Just to comment on your concerns about how to advance a Street Sam. As I'm sure several people here know Street Sams are my favorite archtype but you're right they do take some effort to keep them on pace with mages and some of the other archtypes.

One of the problems I've noticed is that a lot of GM's (and pregen adventures) tend to dole out a lot more Karma than they do Nuyen. Talk to your GM about this. Solutions include simply upping the amount of money received to place it on parity with the Karma or even a Karma for Cash system (spend Karma at the racetrack or Urban Brawl bookie and your team comes out on top).

Second option is to use that Karma. Diversify. While a mage is going to pump every point of Karma into his initiation you can develop your character to cover all the bases. I had a 2nd/3rd ed troll sam who, by the time he retired could serve as the team driver, repair the car, build and repair guns, had an awesome etiquette skill for dealing with gangers and other street level contacts. He could also moonlight as a serviceable decker, and still managed to be a serious threat with his pistols.

[FlashbackJon]

More karma than nuyen? I must be in the wrong games... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The starting characters? Severely gimped in a ton of ways. No social skills or contacts? You're screwed.

Of course, to make it flat out impossible for them to survive, they get the additional bonus of being Uncough... and thus not being allowed to even default.

[masterofm]

There are three street samies in the party. If none of them took hand to hand combat I could see it being useful, but with 1 IP shooting is always better then punching. Also if one of the activesofts is always loaded hand to hand it's basically the same thing. Right? Right? Also it was a good idea to escape the icky goo that is hacking. Let the GM NPC that. Also what books is your GM running with, all of them or just the BBB?

[imperialus]

More karma than nuyen? I must be in the wrong games... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well lets compare the nuyen-Karma ratio in Parliament of Thieves. The suggested payout is 3000 :nueyn: per runner. The suggested Karma is 3-6 depending on how successful the run is.

A mage needs a max of 18 karma to initiate for the first time. He can accomplish this in a maximum of 6 runs. Say your street sam wants to upgrade his Alpha Wired II to Beta Wired III (a perfectly reasonable step for a veteran sam). Say he can sell the Alpha II for half price, 32,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) that means he still needs to come up with 268000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to accomplish this. Assuming a flat rate of 3000 nuyen and 3 karma per run he would need to make 89 runs to pay for his Wired III, and that's before factoring in availability and all the other incidental things that runners just spend money on. The power increase given by initiation is certainly no worse than the power boost that upgrading from Wired II to Wired III, in fact it's better because even with the upgrade to Beta it still eats into a sams precious essence score.

Say the group already had a table level of 6 with karma scores of 250+ At 3 karma per adventure this means they would have had 83 adventures. In other words this 'prime runner' street sam still wouldn't be able to afford his wired III. If they are table level 6 the team would be getting paid 18,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Even at this rate the Sam needs to go on 14.8 runs to afford his wired III. Even if he's getting paid the absolute maximum allowed by the adventure he still needs to do more than twice as much work for a very basic upgrade when compared to a mage who wants to initiate.