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> Risk of Ghoul Contagion
Murrdox
post Jul 28 2008, 09:09 PM
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Perhaps I've been playing D&D too long.

I'm planning an encounter with my group that may involve some Ghouls. Who doesn't love blasting some zombies now and again?

Question is that I was reading up about them and it lists them as being very contagious. However, in the SR4 rulebook, there's very very little said about HMHVV at all.

If my runners encounter ghouls, and get scratched / bitten is there any chance of them contracting the disease? Has any previous editions of Shadowrun covered this? If a human contracts the disease, can it be cured before the person becomes a ghoul?

One of my only complaints about the 4th Edition rulebook is that for some world development things (like HMHVV) the book just mentions it, and assumes that you know what it is. Another example is that I think SURGE is mentioned 2 or 3 times in the book, but the book never tells you what it is or what it stands for or what the results were... it just assumes you know it. Thank goodness for the 6th World Wiki.
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Ancient History
post Jul 28 2008, 09:12 PM
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1) Ghouls != zombies

2) Rules for Ghouls and HMHVV, including infection, will be included in Runner's Companion.
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Murrdox
post Jul 28 2008, 09:31 PM
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Well, right not zombies per-say. I picture ghouls as being somewhat similar to the "Infected" from "28 Days Later" - except they're hairless, blind, have a taste for dead flesh... and some of them retain a degree of intelligence and magical powers.

Good to hear they're being covered in the Runner's Companion... I guess I'll ad-lib it until then.

If they get scratched I'll probably scare them... make them roll a few dice, and describe to them that the wound seems to be healing a lot slower than normal... just to freak them out. Maybe they'll even go around seeking a Street Doc with a "Miracle HMHVV Cure"

"Don't let yourself be alone with Johnny! He's likely to go ghoul at any second and try to eat you!"

"Guys! For the 10th time! I feel fine! I'm not a fragging ghoul!"
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Backgammon
post Jul 28 2008, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE (Murrdox @ Jul 28 2008, 04:09 PM) *
If my runners encounter ghouls, and get scratched / bitten is there any chance of them contracting the disease? Has any previous editions of Shadowrun covered this? If a human contracts the disease, can it be cured before the person becomes a ghoul?


Yes you can catch it. Can it be cured.... that was never fully answered and generally left open to the GM IIRC.

One time I had a mission where the players went up against A LOT of werewolves (a type of HMHVV). The team leader (they were spec ops) was given lots of vaccine vials and told everything would be fine if the injected if ever they thought they had been contaminated. For fun, they didn't tell the cybered up street sam there was a simple anti-viral. It was really funny to see him get all panicky at the thought of getting infected (the player didn't know there was a vaccine, either). Fun time.

QUOTE
One of my only complaints about the 4th Edition rulebook is that for some world development things (like HMHVV) the book just mentions it, and assumes that you know what it is. Another example is that I think SURGE is mentioned 2 or 3 times in the book, but the book never tells you what it is or what it stands for or what the results were... it just assumes you know it. Thank goodness for the 6th World Wiki.

That's because SURGE is the worst idea ever and it is agreed that it must never be spoken of except to vaguely maintain stated events.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 28 2008, 11:18 PM
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why was were-stuff a type of HMHVV? that's one of the points where SR differs from folklore, as you're either born a shifter or you will never be a shifter . . shifters don't infect people and make them shifters too . . hmm . . what would happen, if a shifter got infected with HMHVV?
is that even possible or would the natural regeneration tell the virus to go screw itself?
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Rasumichin
post Jul 29 2008, 12:00 AM
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The Krieger strain of HMHVV could, in previous editions, be cured relatively easy during the timespan between infection and transformation into a ghoul.
The process took some time, with onset symptoms such as blurred vision, increased appetite for raw meat, aversion to sunlight and so on. It was not like turning into a zombie from one moment to the other- more like a disease slowly building up in strenght and finally leading to something similar to goblinization.
It was also theoretically possible to shake off the disease on ones own, probably leaving behind minor disfigurements (pale skin, hair loss, impaired vision etc).
However, in all of these cases, these people still carried the disease and where able to infect others.
This could not be remedied, as well as it was impossible to reverse the transformation into a ghoul once it had happened.
In SR3, one could catch the Krieger strain by contact with body fluids of an infected person, including saliva.
Even minor scratches posed a threat of infection, as ghouls (except PC ghouls, who where build using different rules) had the Pestilence critter power and therefore where highly contagious.
This vector also meant that everybody who ever had contact with Krieger-HMHVV was pretty hosed even if he did not turn into a ghoul, as he was a constant risk to anybody who had close contact with him (no more making out for the rest of your live unless you want to zombiefy your party flirt or at least send her to the doc afterwards because she is just as screwed up as you are now).

Of course, these rules where quite harsh and implicitly suggested that half of the world should be busy fighting back an impending viral outbreak of zombie movie proportions.
Make of that what you will.

I cannot really say how this will be handled in Runner's Companion, but as the same rules will be applied both for PC and NPC ghouls (according to Ancient History) and the ghoul description (in fact, the entire critter chapter) in the BBB lacks the Pestilence power, some things certainly will be changed.


As far as werewolves are concerned :
I think by the term werewolve, Backgammon is referring to the loup-garou, a human infected with yet another strain of HMHVV (the Jarca-Criscione-strain, IIRC, also responsible for turning sasquatches into bandersnatches).
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WearzManySkins
post Jul 29 2008, 12:00 AM
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QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 28 2008, 04:58 PM) *
Yes you can catch it. Can it be cured.... that was never fully answered and generally left open to the GM IIRC.

One time I had a mission where the players went up against A LOT of werewolves (a type of HMHVV). The team leader (they were spec ops) was given lots of vaccine vials and told everything would be fine if the injected if ever they thought they had been contaminated. For fun, they didn't tell the cybered up street sam there was a simple anti-viral. It was really funny to see him get all panicky at the thought of getting infected (the player didn't know there was a vaccine, either). Fun time.

That's because SURGE is the worst idea ever and it is agreed that it must never be spoken of except to vaguely maintain stated events.

Well if you have nano O-Cells rating 6 it can give a fighting chance against alot of infections.

As for SURGE well to parrot Ancient History "will be included in Runner's Companion."

Actually to me playable Vampires and Ghouls, rank way higher on the worst idea scale, along with many other "neato" ideas.

WMS
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sunnyside
post Jul 29 2008, 09:02 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 28 2008, 06:18 PM) *
why was were-stuff a type of HMHVV? that's one of the points where SR differs from folklore, as you're either born a shifter or you will never be a shifter . . shifters don't infect people and make them shifters too . . hmm . . what would happen, if a shifter got infected with HMHVV?
is that even possible or would the natural regeneration tell the virus to go screw itself?


As touched on above HMHVV werewolves and shifters are different things.

I don't have a problem with playable ghouls though. Shadowrunners are, to a degree, supposed to be messed up. That gets left out of a chargen all to often. Being a ghouls is a fair way to be messed up, and they weren't unbalancing.

I dunno about vampires though.

At any rate there were elaborate ghoul rules in the old SR3 companion I think. Lacking that I'd suggest making up some rolls for the players. First ones to contract the disease. Then ones to beat it with expensive treatment in it's early stages. And finally some harsh will rolls to try and keep their sanity intact during the process. They blow it NPC them, if they manage it change up their stats to be more ghoul like.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 29 2008, 12:19 PM
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but can shifters get infected with HMHVV?
is there any word on this?
at least as a ghoul you would have less problems than usual, as you tend to eat raw metahuman meat as a predatorial shifter anyway . . you gain dual nautre and astral perception and your eyes don't degrade because your regenerative abilities stop that from happening? light does still bother you, but you get no real problems as the damage is healed as fast as it happens?
any othe ropinions?
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Rasumichin
post Jul 29 2008, 12:43 PM
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Shifters are already burdened with dual nature.
Did they have immunity to diseases in previous editions?
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Stahlseele
post Jul 29 2008, 12:47 PM
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shifters have animal nature, not dual nature as far as i know O.o
if you wanted to be able to use astal perception you needed to take adept with the power or full magician in SR3 . .
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Ancient History
post Jul 29 2008, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 29 2008, 01:19 PM) *
but can shifters get infected with HMHVV?
is there any word on this?

Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus
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Stahlseele
post Jul 29 2008, 01:08 PM
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ok, the Ancient one has spoken, i won't further ask in this direction ^^
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Isath
post Jul 29 2008, 02:28 PM
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Shapeshifters have always been dualnatured in SR. The beastial nature you are refering to is another one of their traits, that came up with shifter as advanced character option.

As History has it (muhaha) shifters are not considered (meta-)human - that includes genes. The Virus in question is targeting (meta-)humans only.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jul 29 2008, 04:17 PM
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I remember in SR3 it was similarly vague about what one's risk of infection would be if one were bitten. I imagine that since RPG rules for diseases are usually whacked the best course of action would be to look up the transmissibility of real world diseases and figure out how contagious you want the ghoul disease to be.
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Isath
post Jul 29 2008, 05:30 PM
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I found the Companion in SR3 not all so vague. In that book the process of infection was described rather detailed, including how the chances for a cure are...or what the point of no return is, once infected. I guess we will have all that for SR4 soon, when the Runners Companion gets published. BTW. any word on that release?
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ravensmuse
post Jul 29 2008, 11:00 PM
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QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 28 2008, 06:58 PM) *
That's because SURGE is the worst idea ever and it is agreed that it must never be spoken of except to vaguely maintain stated events.

/disagree. One of the reasons I'm excited for Companion is to get (perhaps some meatier) SURGE rules.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 29 2008, 11:24 PM
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am waiting for a precedent of 4 arms on a character so i can play goro from mortal combat or Stryker from Cyberforce ^^
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CanRay
post Jul 29 2008, 11:38 PM
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I'm looking forward to Companion for a lot of reasons!

Shifters included! I can finally work up stats for Felix and include him in games! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And a few of my group members have been bugging me for other items in the Companion. One wanted a Gnome, and another wants the SURGE rules.
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Oracle
post Jul 30 2008, 06:55 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 29 2008, 01:18 AM) *
why was were-stuff a type of HMHVV? that's one of the points where SR differs from folklore, as you're either born a shifter or you will never be a shifter . . shifters don't infect people and make them shifters too . . hmm . . what would happen, if a shifter got infected with HMHVV?


Actually a lot of the werewolf movies I saw in my younger days had that "if it bites you but doesn't kill you, you are soon gonna be somewhat hairy" stuff.
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Ancient History
post Jul 30 2008, 07:18 AM
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Hollywood invented the Wolf-Man as an infectious critter; most mythologies place were-beings as semi-divine/infernal or the result of specific magics - ointments of baby fat, wolf, jaguar, and seal skin pelts and belts, mystic pools or rivers, that kind of thing.

SR splits the difference; your actual "werewolf" (or other shapechanger) is a critter that can take a metahuman shape, while the loup-garou Infected have more of the characteristics of the Wolf-Man - rabid, still predominantly metahuman in shape and abilities, furrier.

Now all those pining for Crinos-critters can play with SURGE or go back to your White Wolf games. Catboy/catgirl anime-style critters ditto except with BESM.
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ravensmuse
post Jul 30 2008, 11:39 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 30 2008, 02:18 AM) *
Now all those pining for Crinos-critters can play with SURGE or go back to your White Wolf games.


No thanks. I got over that particular time in my life and besides, they killed the worlds I liked.

Did make me stop for a second to see the word "crinos" stuck in there though.
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CanRay
post Jul 30 2008, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 30 2008, 02:18 AM) *
Now all those pining for Crinos-critters can play with SURGE or go back to your White Wolf games. Catboy/catgirl anime-style critters ditto except with BESM.

> "Say what you like, real live catgirls are proof that the spirits love us and want us to be happy."
> Traveler Jones
- Arsenal, Page 77
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Wounded Ronin
post Jul 30 2008, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 30 2008, 02:18 AM) *
Hollywood invented the Wolf-Man as an infectious critter; most mythologies place were-beings as semi-divine/infernal or the result of specific magics - ointments of baby fat, wolf, jaguar, and seal skin pelts and belts, mystic pools or rivers, that kind of thing.

SR splits the difference; your actual "werewolf" (or other shapechanger) is a critter that can take a metahuman shape, while the loup-garou Infected have more of the characteristics of the Wolf-Man - rabid, still predominantly metahuman in shape and abilities, furrier.

Now all those pining for Crinos-critters can play with SURGE or go back to your White Wolf games. Catboy/catgirl anime-style critters ditto except with BESM.


I read in a book when I was in elementary school that people were supposed to be able to transform themselves into werewolves through magical rituals. This ritual could include dancing naked under the full moon while wearing a belt made of skin peeled off from someone who'd been executed on the wheel while twirling a cauldron filled with magic stuff overhead.
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Dancer
post Aug 1 2008, 08:47 AM
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I'm not sure why people rag on SURGE for 'catgirls' given how trivial it would be for 2070s plastic surgeons to achieve that effect (a lot more likely than SURGEing into it).
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