Shadowruns w/o Johnsons, How feasable from a game standpoint? Options

[FlashbackJon]

none of them created characters with any connections to any other PC (not even a single shared contact/contact type).

Why not give them one or two? Make them regulars to the same contact - friend-of-a-friend.

I especially like the idea of them all being blamed for the same crime. Nothing encourages cooperation like being in drek up to one's neck.

[CanRay]

I cheated with my group, one of the PCs was a Doctor at a Shadow Clinic, and I said, "OK, he's your 'Family Doctor', or the closest that passes for Shadowrunners." "So... If he vouches for everyone..." "Then they're OK. He's seen them inside and out, after all!"

[nezumi]

When I was running the Other Game, I started out with everone getting arrested by slavers and having to make their way through the wilderness and eventually explain why they killed lawfully operating slavers. You can do something similar here. They're all in the arcology when... They're in a restaurant when it... and so on. Then they have an opportunity to work together. Make it clear that any PCs who decide they don't want to work with the group are welcome to have their own adventures... but you don't have time to GM those adventures. That should give them both the IC and OOC impetus to work together.

[FlakJacket]

You know, I like that idea. You mention the "Key to the Arcology", which reminds me of one of the bounties in Dunkelzhan's will, which is a good sum of money for information on what is behind door xxx in the... I don't recall, I'll have to reread the book but that could certainly be arranged and given the vagueness of the hook it should be possible to make it work with the current direction.

That was actually revealed in Renraku Arcology Shutdown IIRC.

[ Spoiler ]

From what I remember physically it was just an ordinary janitors closet, but if you checked it out in the matrix it was some kind secret hidden host that Dunkelzahn had put in place to monitor the SCIRE's Arcology Expert Program in case it ever became - or looked like it was going to become - an Artificial Intelligence. Which was quite prescient when you consider what eventually happened, just a shame that Dunkelzahn had already been dead a couple years before it all kicked off.

Of course what it is in your game is entirely up to you as the GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[psychophipps]

Just be sure to keep in mind that there are plenty of underground types who are more than just a fixer, chop shop operator, drug dealer, (insert other job here). There is absolutely nothing that says that your fixer can't also be a mighty fine Mr. Johnson is he has to be and the money is good. A Johnson is just a cut-out between the employer and the employee, after all.

[sunnyside]

Don't know if the OP is still bothering with this thread.

But first off all I think you need to clarify what you mean by them finding runs for themselves. I caution against just having the runners steal and try to fence stuff. It doesn't take too much creativity on their part and I would think that it makes for a dull game. Or one that's over all to quickly if they manage to score something really really expensive and they just retire.

Hmmmmm. You know what. Maybe what you need is to get them some inspiration. Even seen the series Firefly? You should at any rate. I'd suggest just buying the DVD or recording it if you get the Universal HD cable channel, but if you're cheap I'm sure you can find the episodes online easily enough.

Anyway the point is:

1. The characters operate the way I think you want your players to. Having contacts all over they check in with for work or for info on stuff they could do themselves, sometimes even doing legit or semi legit work. And if they don't have contacts in an area they do the legwork thing to find something.

2. If shown how it works they might actually be interested in doing something like that.

Maybe let them buy a used tilt wing for a fraction of the price or some hovercraft or something if they want the vehicle shtick.


As for the lone wolf thing. I don't generally have a problem with that. It's a bit different than if they don't RP at all. Let them each do some things on their own to develop sometimes. (I find this works best when the other players want to do something like get food or if someone shows up earlier to the game than the others. But ten minutes of table time on one guy doing something isn't so bad).

[Shiloh]

Or kill their Johnson *after* the run. Often, the only reason the target corp doesn't come after the 'Runners is because what they stole isn't recoverable any more, having been spirited away by the sponsor (Johnson). If that doesn't happen, and the target hear about it, they may well exert themselves a little to get the maguffin back.

Set it up so that some random violence endangers the Johnson at the payoff meet. You'll have a few potential outcomes:

1) the Johnson dies, leaving the 'Runners saddled with whatever they took
2) the Johnson dies and *someone else* steals the maguffin
3) the Johnson survives through their own efforts and blames the 'Runners for the doublecross.
4) the Johnson survives thanks to the 'Runners and sics them on whoever blew the meet.

There are additional complications such as whether the 'Runners got paid or not...

4 could lead to the Johnson and the 'Runners being thrown together (maybe the meet was blown by an ambitious underling who's used the Johnson's "failure" to usurp their position and now the Johnson promises the moon on a stick to Runners if they'll help. but that's getting away from the initial premise...

[DragonDecker]

I'll be keeping all this in mind for the future, but as of last night two of my players told me (before game) that they wouldn't be able to make it for the forseeable future. A new player was added to the group, and since that meant character creation before we began a vote was placed for what campaign we'd run. Apparently I'm the only one in the group who has any interest in continuing the campaign, and so it dies (despite the fact that those who remain are the ones who volunteered me to run it in the first place). Thank you all for you're suggestions, and if I ever get a chance to run another one I'll be sure to put them to good use.

[Sir_Psycho]

This all reminds me of a run that started from my one character going out for a drink. He was in the bathroom, and some guy tried to crush his head. He ducks out the door, coathangers him with a shock glove (all he had on him, as he was just going for a social drink) and then finds himself being chased and shot at by a team of men. He manages to escape in a cab, gets the cab fucked up by a powerbolt, he has to run on foot, fight a mage, steal the riggers sportscar, and have to defuse a bomb under the seat (I ended up removing it and throwing it through a shop window, it was ridiculous. Afterwards he sold the car to his fixer in exchange for telling him who tried to kill him. He goes to his safehouse, grabs his camouflage armour gear, weapons and gear, gets the call from his fixer telling him the address of the Johnson who organised the run against him. He invades the place over the roof down to the balcony, sneaks in the dark, scuffles and then manages to restrain the guy. He then proceeds to intimidate Mr. Johnson into telling him who was the client, when the door bursts in a flashbang is thrown into the room and as Raven (the character) jumps to the side and gets out his gun, Johnson has bean shot dead. Raven spins around the corner to shoot at whoever it is and then sees that the shooter looks exactly like himself.

Seriously, wierd things happen when you don't use the Fixer calls Team and gives Johnson, who wants things done for money. I still made good money from the convertible, and a new contact who looks uncannily like me.

[dspring]

What you are really asking is how do you engage your players into driving your campaign rather than being passive participants. The Johnson model makes it easy to start a game, but can discourage initiative. A person wants to hire you and tells you the goal. It makes it easy for the GM to plan a single adventure and the players have a single goal that they can shoot for. Simple, but limiting.

If you want the players to show more initiative than they are doing on their own, there are some easy stages you can walk them through to develop initiative.

Stage 1: Give them choices: Three different Johnsons each have different jobs in roughly the same time window. Maybe they can do two if they take some risks that the first job goes well, but certainly not three. This gets them used to making choices, gets them used to working with very limited information as they do not yet have full details on the jobs and debating what they really want to do. It also introduces factors on which Johnson they trust, how much risk they want, and forces tradeoffs (which is role playing). It also gives the GM good insight to what the players like.

Stage 2: Get them into adventures that have no Johnson
• Give them rumors, bounties, and other interesting plot hooks. Give them a half dozen or more every time an adventure ends. They may investigate 2-4 and pick on only 1. The key is the role play the investigation based on some limited notes until it is clear that the party has settled on an option with maybe a stand alone encounter to give some action. If they do not show any interest, then include in the rumors that somebody else got a big payoff from following up on a rumor you mentioned 2 games back. Maybe some of these jobs have a Johnson that can be approached – somebody interested in paying for results, but many would not.
• Have something happen (good/bad/interesting/terrifying) in the vicinity of one of your players. Their girlfriend got killed. A human footprint is planted on the hood of their car – and is radioactive. A mob hit occurs in the same restaurant as your annual team dinner. Somebody finds a pile of high tech goodies and a body in the street. You get the idea.
• Ask each character what they do – hobbies, interests. If they have none, then use the advancement rules and make adventures out of getting skilled training or special equipment. The key is to offer up an adventure hook tailor made for a particular character. My own experience is that players only take these hooks 1 time in 3, but I have hung an entire year long campaign on a single character’s driving ambition.


The question of how the players make their money (stealing, doing jobs, mix, free lance work, merc work, etc) really depends on the game style you want. It is a separate question.


Stage 3: Sit back and try and keep up with the players pushing for their individual agendas.

[Westiex]

One thing to keep in mind is that doing private runs for individual players can get a bit iffy. My 3rd edition character was quite proactive to the point where she managed to net two fairly decent hauls in runs that she did by herself.

Now, anytime I mention doing something like that the idea gets shot down faster then a double crossing Johnson. Also several times I've been in the position where I've OOCly asked the GM 'Will you allow me to do this?' and the answer has been no.

One of my GMs might spot this thread, if not I'll push him in this direction and see if he's willing to comment.

[DragonDecker]

Part of the problem is that every run so far had been to introduce a new character. Started with two players, no sooner finished that run than I had two more to introduce, then another player was added, though with the "voting" system our group decided to implement two weeks ago we'll never actually get to that run.

I had a plot in mind that involved most of the players. The majority had some potential tie-in to a mag-medical research group, and I was going to focus on that for a while, then two of the four who had such a tie-in disappeared (players, not pcs). I've been volunteered for a DnD game so the SR campaign is temporarily on hold (though I suspect the DnD will fall through as well, but that's another rant).

[Synner667]

But surely, almost by definition, there's always a Mr Smith...
...Even if it's the Character himself - since he'll be the one to decide on a target, the payoff and deal with the aftermath ??

I tend to have few "formal" hirings...
...Because that always seems such a rubbish way to get characters involved in anything - "your life is so empty that the only way you can make money or find meaning in your life is meet a bunch of strangers in a bar/hotel/office and do something for money just because they ask you to".

Didn't people stop doing that in D&D years ago, because it was such a blatently obvious way to get people together that had no backstory ??


Anyways...
...Once a group has done a scenario, they have contacts and repercussions from what they've done...
......And those become the next scenarios.

It's more work for me, and needs the Characters to have some sort background...
...But it lets things grow organically, without being forced - too much.

[Shiloh]

But surely, almost by definition, there's always a Mr Smith...
...Even if it's the Character himself - since he'll be the one to decide on a target, the payoff and deal with the aftermath ??

Pre-6th World, they probably got called "the client".

I tend to have few "formal" hirings...
...Because that always seems such a rubbish way to get characters involved in anything - "your life is so empty that the only way you can make money or find meaning in your life is meet a bunch of strangers in a bar/hotel/office and do something for money just because they ask you to".

I think that's a bit of a broad brush to paint 'Runners with... Motivations vary, and the environment is *written* to provide opportunities for that sort of a hook. You could equally say, pace Tyler Durden, "Your life is so empty that the only way you can find meaning in your life is to do a job you hate to get money to buy things you don't need." Every P.I accepts jobs from strangers, and some of them verge on the illegal (see "pretexting" and the CEO of HP spying on the Board of Directors).

Didn't people stop doing that in D&D years ago, because it was such a blatently obvious way to get people together that had no backstory ??

When people have no backstory, what other options are there? You can start "in media res" but that involves you providing at least the last few *hours'* backstory for them... People stopped being recruited as motley crews in taverns when players started giving their character backstory and working together to produce teams.

[dspring]

"I had a plot in mind that involved most of the players. The majority had some potential tie-in to a mag-medical research group, and I was going to focus on that for a while, then two of the four who had such a tie-in disappeared (players, not pcs). "


You are looking aat this wrong. This is an opportunity. Now the lead into this adventure is that one of their comrades is dead and another has vanished. Maybe a hit also occurs on the third character who is still around. The fact that the players are gone allows you to do all sorts of things with these characters - including makign them the opposition, the betrayers or the bodies.

[DragonDecker]

Another great idea, too bad the campaign won't be being revived (no resurrection in shadowrun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

As of the last session one of those two were no where to be found, and all of the rest were in a crowded bar. I was going to drop the news of Big D's death and have the second get lost in the confusion. And the first just wouldn't have shown up again (only been on one run together and all that).

[feralminded]

Just to throw my .02 in here. This entire thread is why I hate ever using johnsons or running games that are based on the Team/Johnson model. Of course I go over the top but generally if I can't get my players emotionally involved in at least 50% of the runs as opposed to it being just a complicated game of Rainbow Six then I consider myself having failed as a GM. I realize there are players out there who want precisely that, just slowly acquiring money in a regular fashion performing regular D&D style encounters ... but those aren't the kind of players I want in my games and not the kinds of games I want to run.

I guess my point is, know your audience. If you want motivation from your players, recruit players who are motivated and then provide them with plot and hooks and opportunities that they can't miss. A good rule of thumb is don't get TOO complex (unless its the main, overarching plot), and don't make it TOO hard. Challenge them but then give them something easy to make them appreciate their newfound powerlevel. Its all about pacing. A great campaign is just like a great movie with emotional and logical highs and lows.

That said this is all highly story dependent. I guess I very rarely use explicit johnsons and my players are fairly resourceful so they end up creating their own runs often times to acquire material for larger runs (why buy what you can steal for less). Usually I tangle my players up in the plot so thoroughly that the next "runs" are usually revealed during the previous ones. Of course I burned out on D&D about 20 years ago so the old "Gandalf meets you in the inn and says he has an adventure for you" ... which is all the archetypical Johnson encounter in SR is ... has long since been worn to the bone for me and most of my players. That said after enough plot/emotion heavy gaming they usually LONG for a straightforward "johnson reveals all" run and then I give it to them ... of course with my hooks in even those which I bring back to the forefront many months later ...

Ok I'm just an evil bastard who has too much fun running games. Ignore my rhetoric.

[De Badd Ass]

But as standard practice how well does it work out, and how much buy-in is required?

Essentially I've hit a wall with my players. They take the jobs because they are supposed to, but if they aren't contacted about the meet they don't go looking for it. I feel half tempted to let the PCs starve because they didn't bother to look for a job, but am hoping for an out first.

The main idea I have in mind is this: calls from contacts late at night about a product available, strangers bumping into you at the club leaving behind contact info and a note about product, but with the contact charging for the info instead of paying. Essentially each contact (or most anyway) would fill the role of Quark (DS9) as a middle man.

I know that setting wise this works fine. But as far as the main thrust of the campaign, would it work? would it be too much effort for the amount of payoff? Is there a munchkin angle I'm missing?

I've played in campaigns without Johnsons, both Shadowrun and ADnD.

The Biggest Problem: The GM (DM) has to be agile enough to handle what the players decide to do. If the players decide to organize a "Gone in 60 Seconds" type team, the GM gotten come up with buyers, victims, law enforcement, etc. Same for "Oceans 11" or anything else.

Players decide they want to acquire military hardware, rob a corp, hunt bugs, etc. today - the GM has to be ready.

Second Biggest Problem: The most motivated player probably wants to do something the others are not interested in. That's because it's something that's been neglected up to now. The Hacker wants a Matrix run. The Mage wants an Astral Quest. Sammie want a Bar Fight.

Third Problem: Players want easy.

OTOH: IF you are just looking to get the players off their asses - that's what consequences are for. If the players have commited a major crime in the past, someone should be investigating. Tangled with a gang or a mob? They should have enemies. Raid their joint. Arrest one of them. Conduct a Drive-By.

Want Plot Hooks? Look at their list of Negative Qualities. There might be something useful there. Maybe you can motivate them to get rid of the flaw. Conversely, you can offer them the opportunity to gain a Positive Quality.