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> Multiple Passes, Tired of extra IP = FTW
psychophipps
post Aug 4 2008, 07:24 AM
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My group is officially sick and tired of extra IP. It just screws everything up. From movement to weapon RoF to my ganger being able to punkslap three times as many guys as the phys-ad with at-will "I cast Shitkick I-Beam", it all gets tossed on it's ear when 1/4 of the party takes up 75% of the combat time due to their extra two IP each.

That said, here's how we're gonna fix it:
The extra IP spells, abilities, drugs, and cyber keep the Reaction bonus.
The extra IP is instead added as dice to multiple actions or reducing penalties based upon multiple actions. Got Wired 2? You can use those two dice at any time in your turn to reduce penalties like "Changing targets" or dodging multiple attacks. You can also add the two extra dice to your split pool if you use two weapons, drones, nodes, etc. at once.

Quick, easy, efficient and no longer completely broken, IMO. It worked great with this week's session and two of the players were no longer killing everything in sight and/or getting everything done while the no extra IP characters were stuck sitting on their thumbs and spinning. The added bonus was that the extra IP characters were doing more stunts and risky, but hyper-fresh, maneuvers rather than being conservative and waiting for their next IP to roll around while everyone else stood in place to die like bitches against full dice pool attacks.
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Grayson7
post Aug 4 2008, 07:33 AM
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Hmm, interesting. Let me know how it works over the longhaul, if you would.
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The Jopp
post Aug 4 2008, 09:56 AM
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I've been toying with the same idea basically but more Matrix oriented. Should be easy to implement on both worlds. My idea would on the other hand add dicepool bonus on all tests.

IP Enhancing Ware/Powers/Spells: Adds Reaction+Dicepool bonus equal to their rating for all Meat World Skill Test Actions
IP Enhancing Matrix Ware/Gear/Abilities: Adds Intuition+Dicepool bonus equal to their rating for all Matrix Skill Test Actions

A streetsam with +3IP would have +3D6 to all his skill tests
A Hacker would have +3D6 when in hotsim and additional+2 for the hotsim bonus in itself
This would also make a clear distinction between meat world (AR) hacking and VR hacking.
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knasser
post Aug 4 2008, 10:32 AM
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This is a really innovative approach. Definitely keep posting here to let us know how it's working out. I might do some number crunching to see how it affects game balance. If so, I'll post later.

I think without reducing costs (nuyen and essence) of the IP enhancing ware, then they're no longer value for money at just +1 dice per +1 IP, I'd certainly increase that to more dice. Great idea, though. I've sort of been looking for something a little like this, but on the grounds that the series of extra actions tagged on to the end seem unrealistic rather than unbalanced or un-fun. Using the existing rules for splitting actions never occurred to me.

Nice one.

-K.
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Zak
post Aug 4 2008, 10:33 AM
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I hope you made the gear a lot cheaper then. Because the 'bonus' you give them instead of extra IPs just fails.

There would be another simple fix btw: Tell the rest of the team to stop slacking and get additional IPs aswell, if they want to take part in combats. Or if their players cba to build a combat ready char, they should just stay away from it and not complain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
It's not like it is hard to get extra IPs in 4th.
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psychophipps
post Aug 4 2008, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Aug 4 2008, 02:56 AM) *
I've been toying with the same idea basically but more Matrix oriented. Should be easy to implement on both worlds. My idea would on the other hand add dicepool bonus on all tests.

IP Enhancing Ware/Powers/Spells: Adds Reaction+Dicepool bonus equal to their rating for all Meat World Skill Test Actions
IP Enhancing Matrix Ware/Gear/Abilities: Adds Intuition+Dicepool bonus equal to their rating for all Matrix Skill Test Actions

A streetsam with +3IP would have +3D6 to all his skill tests
A Hacker would have +3D6 when in hotsim and additional+2 for the hotsim bonus in itself
This would also make a clear distinction between meat world (AR) hacking and VR hacking.


I stayed away from the straight skill bonus dice because boosting means you do it faster, not necessarily better. Besides, a +2/+3 dice (the two most common levels of boost) to all skills is a tad bit on the burly side, IMO. Add that moving faster due to these enhancements will indeed make you a harder target to hit, we felt that keeping the Reaction modifier common with the listed abilities makes sense.
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Muspellsheimr
post Aug 4 2008, 10:43 AM
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Interesting idea. I would modify it a bit though:

Meat Initiative Pass boosters give a dice pool modifier to all actions utilizing a Physical attribute or skill linked to a Physical attribute. Modifiers are (of the top of my head) +1 (+1 IP), +3 (+2 IP), & +5 (+3 IP).

Matrix Initiative Pass boosters give a dice pool modifier to all actions utilizing Logic or a skill linked to Logic. Modifiers are +1 (+1 IP), +3 (+2 IP), & +5 (+3 IP).
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psychophipps
post Aug 4 2008, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE (Zak @ Aug 4 2008, 03:33 AM) *
I hope you made the gear a lot cheaper then. Because the 'bonus' you give them instead of extra IPs just fails.


Not in my (admittedly limited) experience. Using the extra dice, as an example, to remove the "Switching Targets" modifier let my ganger get a full-on shotgun attack on two ghouls per turn was pretty damn sweet. Add that Reaction Enhancement is 10K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per level and doesn't give these bonus dice? Sounds like a bargain to me, even w/o the extra IP.
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psychophipps
post Aug 4 2008, 11:03 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Aug 4 2008, 03:43 AM) *
Interesting idea. I would modify it a bit though:

Meat Initiative Pass boosters give a dice pool modifier to all actions utilizing a Physical attribute or skill linked to a Physical attribute. Modifiers are (of the top of my head) +1 (+1 IP), +3 (+2 IP), & +5 (+3 IP).


Well, we were thinking this way but decided in the end that simply adding dice to skill rolls was broken. Are you really prepared to deal with a +1 hit or +1.66 hits average per test? It would really skew the success tables and remove the purpose of adepts adding to skills with magic.

Our method means that it only reduces multi-action modifiers and resistance rolls against area autofire/explosion effects rather than taking the whole probability system and tossing it on it's ear.
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Zak
post Aug 4 2008, 11:06 AM
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Well, something costing 5 Essence and 100000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) should get you a little more than just 3 Reaction (which is a really easy to max out stat anyway) and 3 bonus dice with limited use.

And 1 bonus dice for limited use costing 2 Essence and 11000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) sounds a little bit crazy to me. Noone sane would bother getting that and opt for other sources of bonus dice that aren't limited to this special situation.
It may be interesting in case you maxxed out all other sources, but even then there is probably something better you can do with your Essence and Nuyen.

(And lets not talk about the 80000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) / 1 reaction&bonus dice if you opt for the bioware solution)

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Heath Robinson
post Aug 4 2008, 11:13 AM
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QUOTE (Zak @ Aug 4 2008, 11:33 AM) *
Tell the rest of the team to stop slacking and get additional IPs aswell, if they want to take part in combats. Or if their players cba to build a combat ready char, they should just stay away from it and not complain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
It's not like it is hard to get extra IPs in 4th.

Tell all those Fighters to stop slacking and get magic as well, if they want to take part in combats. Or, if their players cba to build a blaster mage, they should just stay away from combat and not complain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
It's not like it is hard to get magic in 3rd.
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psychophipps
post Aug 4 2008, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE (Zak @ Aug 4 2008, 03:06 AM) *
Well, something costing 5 Essence and 100000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) should get you a little more than just 3 Reaction (which is a really easy to max out stat anyway) and 3 bonus dice with limited use.

And 1 bonus dice for limited use costing 2 Essence and 11000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) sounds a little bit crazy to me. No one sane would bother getting that and opt for other sources of bonus dice that aren't limited to this special situation.
It may be interesting in case you maxed out all other sources, but even then there is probably something better you can do with your Essence and Nuyen.

(And lets not talk about the 80000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) / 1 reaction&bonus dice if you opt for the bioware solution)


Synaptic Booster pays for itself in that you can jam a bunch of other cyber/bio on top of it. Wired costs a lot less because it rapes your Essence.

Hey, you don't like it. That's perfectly OK. Post up your ideas so we can see how they work.

We found it to be a good toss up with the bonus dice being versatile (unlike just adding Reaction and/or Agility) and being nice to keep those pesky multi-action penalties at bay. Add the removal of two dice worth of suppressive fire ended up with a great flanking position and an unwounded ganger earlier tonight? Pretty damn sweet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Besides, how a character spends their scrilla is on you, not the cyberware list. And who buys level 1 Wired anyway? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
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masterofm
post Aug 4 2008, 11:42 AM
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A - Not everything is about combat, nor is it always about hacking, legwork, or face time. They can all take a significant amount of time at a table and depending combat might not take up 50% of your game time.
B - Sustaining spells. A mage can put up 4 IPs on any character in the team if they want to, and it doesn't increase your reaction (or else it would be made of broken sauce.)
C - for the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and mainly the essence cost a +1 to reaction and a +1 to not even skill related tests, but to decent yet somewhat lame tests (at least in my eyes) that don't generally apply to a situation is not worth it.
D - For someone who invests 100k and a crap ton of essence to give them the probability of +1 to hit on their combat tests isn't insanity. You can also just add those dice off the top of the skill pool and if someone splits their dice pool they have to decide where those +5 dice are going to be used instead of giving them +5 dice on every single action they take (thus letting them roll six dice on a dice pool split 12 ways and would then also be made of weak sauce.)

I admire your initiative in thinking of a different way to apply IP's, but I think your best bet is to just throw IP cyber and bioware enhancements off your table. It would just make it easier overall when dealing with the whole situation.

I myself however stand on the other side of the fence on this one. I think it's nice to have an edge where you decide to apply your character. The combat monkey should 1-up the non combat monkey in combat. The non combat monkey should 1-up the combat monkey in many other areas. In some games I would feel sorry for the combat monkey, because not every GM favors straight up combat in every single run. You don't give the street sam bonuses in hacking, and you don't limit the hacker because the combat sammie wants a piece of the action.
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Zak
post Aug 4 2008, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Aug 4 2008, 01:27 PM) *
Hey, you don't like it. That's perfectly OK. Post up your ideas so we can see how they work.


Oh, I am perfectly fine with the initiative system as is and I do not see a need to take it away just because some player doesn't understand how it works and whines about him sucking in combat.

All I am saying, in case you actually take additional IPs out, you need to adjust the price of the ware boosting the IPs. The bonus dice to offset penalties is just not worth it (except you increase the amount of dice).

So it would actually be easier to just do away with IP boosters all together for you. No need to worry about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But a game without additional IPs just wouldn't be Shadowrun for me anymore.
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Drogos
post Aug 4 2008, 11:55 AM
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I would at the very least cut the essence cost by a 1/10, as they are not performing as they were before. I think this is a fresh idea, and I would also change the bonus for all physical DPs across the board. BTW, this makes Move By Wire systems even more WIN. In the end though, I like my IPs the way they are. Some people are just going to hang back and suck it up in combat. They should have other areas to shine, else they failed at character creation. Heck, everyone has edge, so at least every once in awhile everyone can have multiple IPs.
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Sir_Psycho
post Aug 4 2008, 01:06 PM
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I was considering a different method, but it's maths intensive, so I'm no good to knuckle it out.

I've been wanting to have a more smoothly integrated initiative boosting system since SR3. I didn't want everyone to go, and then the sams go again, and again, and again.

Does anyone know a good formula for integrating initiative boosters into one pass? My idea was that 1 IP should be longer, and the initiative boosted characters get to act several times. Sort of like:

Samurai 1
mook 1
mook 2
Samurai 1
Mook 1
Samurai 1
Mook 2.

Again, i'm not sure how it would work, but I want the sam to be able to move more often, but I don't like that he always moves first and then gets several last hard words. Any suggestions? Perhaps an initiative tally system like:

Samurai 1 (wired 2) rolls 13
Mook 1 rolls 12 (wired 1)
Mook 2 rolls 8 (no wires)

Samurai 1 moves 13 -3 = 10
Mook 1 moves 12 -3
Samurai 1 moves 10 -3 = 7
Mook 2 moves 8 -3 = 5
Samurai 7 -3

So characters next move is based on their initiative score - 3 (example) and the actions are limited by their IP bonuses. This would still make IP boosting ware valuable, but it means that samurai can't just defend on their first pass, and then when everyone else is done they can suddenly emerge and double tap every member of the opposition before the next pass. Does that sound ok?
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Blade
post Aug 4 2008, 04:49 PM
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@Sir_Psycho:

That's more or less how I play it.
I got rid of the whole initiative system. There aren't any combat turns. At the beginning of a combat situation, the players are asked to declare what their character will do (this can be one or more actions: "I run to cover" or "I draw my gun, shoot that guy then run to cover."). Actions are then resolved simultaneously. The Initiative Attribute is used to determine reaction times and the number of IP shows how many actions one can do compared to the others.

Example: Sammy and Joe want to kill each other. They suddenly meet each other. Sammy has rating 1 wired reflexes while Joe has only 1 IP. To make things simpler, we'll consider that neither Joe nor Sammy are suprised. Sammy's player declare that Sammy will draw his Warhawk and shoot Joe while diving backwards. Joe's player declare that Joe will draw his Predator and empty his clip on Sammy while getting his body alongside the wall to be less of a target. The actions should be declared independantly of what the other says, and nobody can react to what the other said (that'll be covered later). Here is how the scene will be played:
* Sammy starts to draw his gun and to dive backward.
* Joe starts to draw his gun one tenth of a second later.
* Sammy has his gun out and shoots (in the same simple action). Joe is hit in the left shoulder.
* Joe is shaken by the impact but is still able to get his gun out and shoot Sammy, missing him.
* Joe has just shot and Sammy is already shooting a second time, missing Joe.
* Joe didn't have time to readjust his aim after his first shot, but Sammy has already done so and shoots a third time. But both him and Joe are moving, so Sammy misses.
* Joe shoots a few milliseconds after Sammy, who's just hit the ground and is hit in the chest.
* The impact cause Sammy to move his arm a little, and his fourth bullet ends up in the ceiling, missing Joe once again.


Everyone did act simultaneously. As Sammy had 2 IP, he was able to act twice as many times as Joe. As his initiative score was also better, he was able to act before his opponent, even if by a small margin. When the gap between two initiative score is small and the order of the actions very important, an Initiative test can be done to see who will react first.

This way, the combat focuses much more on narration than on the technical facts. If, once down on the ground, Sammy decides to roll toward cover he'll just have to declare this new action. But Joe said he wanted to empty his clip, so he won't have to declare a new action, except if he decides to interrupt his action.

- Interruptions: A player can decide to interrupt his action whenever he wants. To do so he might need to reevaluate the situation which will require him to spend a simple action or to rely on his experience and tactical abilities. That's why at the beginning of each combat situation, each character rolls Intuition+Tactics (a knowledge skill). Some information (or the TacNet if playing with Unwired) can give positive modifiers and a lack of information or a really confusing situation can lead to negative modifiers. The result of this test determines two things:

1. The ability of the character to react to the situation and interrupt his actions. A character can "spend" a hit to freely interrupt his action.
1. The ability of the character to analyze the situation and act accordingly. That's why the number of hits will give the time the player has to declare his action (0=immediate, 1=a few seconds, 2=about 30 seconds, 3=one minute, 4+=ok, take your time). Each use of a hit to interrupt an action lowers this pool.

The players can roll a free tactics test at the beginning of each combat situation. They can also spend a simple action to refresh their pool by rolling a new test.

Please note that characters also need to spend a tactic point or a simple action to reevaluate the situation before declaring their next action. On the other hand, an interruption can sometimes be free, for example when the evolution of the situation is clear enough. A particularly difficult interruption can also cost more than 1 tactic point, for example if the interruption follows very closely whatever triggered it or if the reason for the interruption is particularly difficult to see (if the character needs to spend a complex action to perceive it, he'll need to spend 2 tactic points to be able to interrupt freely). In some cases, it might also be impossible to interrupt.

Example : Sammy is on the ground and is hit by a bullet. The situation is quite obvious to him, so he can declare his new action freely. On the opposite, Joe wanted to empty his clip on Sammy and he might take a few seconds to realize that Sammy is now under cover. He has 3 options :
1. Interrupt his shooting, spend a simple action to realize what's happening and declare his new action
2. Interrupt his shooting spending a tactics point (Joe is good enough to know that Sammy will probably hide after hitting the ground)
3. Keep shooting until he realizes that Sammy isn't there anymore, which'll probably take no more than 1 simple action.

Safe behind his cover, Sammy takes a few seconds to catch his breath and evaluate the situation. He can either spend a simple action to be able to declare his new action or to roll a tactic test (and hope he'll get at least 1 hit to spend right away). Sammy's player declares that Sammy will take blind shots at Joe from behind his cover. Thanks to the hits he got in his tactics test, Sammy will be able to interrupt freely this action, should Joe die or appear in front of him. As it's not very easy for Sammy to hear anything else than his Warhawk and as he can't see Joe, he'll need to spend several tactics points to interrupt his shooting if Joe is dead.
With a lucky shot, Sammy hits the explosive container that was behind Joe. Because of the explosion, Sammy won't have to spend anything to interrupt his shooting.


These rules give a definite edge to character with more than 1 IP since they have many more actions to spend than characters with just 1 IP. But to be able to benefit from this, they need to react very fast, and the brain might not be able to follow the body. That's why when someone freely interrupts his action, he'll roll a die. If the result is inferior to his number of IP, there is a glitch on his action. This doesn't apply when spending a simple action.

Feel free to use, modify or comment!
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ElFenrir
post Aug 4 2008, 06:39 PM
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I always toyed with the idea of the initative enhancers adding Reaction as normal(so yes, you can stack it...I would indeed lower the essence and nuyen cost), and you roll as normal. Every 3 hits I would let the player choose of adding the hits to their score, or trading hits for an extra pass. 3 hits per pass is a bit steep, but it's fairly easy for even someone with a reaction of 8-9(which most combat-saavy characters will probably have anyway) to nail down 1 extra pass per go if they don't mind trading the hits. 3 passes will be rarer, but if you nail it, nice! 4 passes would probably be near impossible unless you spent Edge(I would treat Edge as it is. Spend a point of Edge, get an extra pass. Edge is good like that.)

I'd also perhaps consider making the player choose...go on a high number, or take an extra pass?

Hmm...I'll try an example. Joe sam is rolling, and he has Initative 11. He rolls 4 hits.

Now, Joe can go on 15, with 1 pass. Or, he can trade 3 dice for a second pass...going on 12 instead. Now, it *can* usually be much better to trade the hits...unless you KNOW you can take the guy out in one go(let's say Joe has Blades(Axes) 5(+2), a 7 Agility, +2 Blade DV from a Martial Art and a 7 strength. Chances are, he won't have to trade hits.

I haven't been able to try this yet. But I might give it a test-run to see how it works. On the surface, it keeps Reaction and Initative good to have(higher Initative=more hits=more chance of being able to nail more passes), but it doesn't *require* a combat character to drop a minimum of near half their essence and 64k nuyen for alphaware wired 2. (What i'd do with the Wired Reflexes is probably give them +2/4/6 to Initative, and halve the Essence cost, and try to adjust the nuyen to match.) Synaptic Boosters would likewise get an Essence and nuyen cut, but do the same thing(naturally still being more expensive.) So it would still be worth it to get those reflex boosters...but for the Essence-strapped Adept, a few Reaction Enhancers would still greatly help them out, and prevent them from being forced to either blow half of their magic of a fat 16 BPs AND Essence on 1 level of Boosters. On the other hand, it would make even your common grunt with a 7 Initative the ability to nail home two passes and possibly bump up their danger.

There are more than likely a factor or factors I haven't figured out here yet...but I might be willing to at least give this a test run to see if it works well, a little, or not at all.
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Raizer
post Aug 4 2008, 08:16 PM
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I use the initiative system as is, but another recommended way of removing the IP issue is allowing each character get get an extra simple action per extra IP when they go.

This way:
2IP character gets 3 simple or 1 complex/1 simple
3IP character gets 4 simple or 2 complex or 1 complex/2 simple
4IP character gets 5 simple or 2 complex/1 simple or 1 complex and 3 simple.
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Aaron
post Aug 4 2008, 08:56 PM
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Have you considered making the base number of IPs for a character two (or even three) instead of one? That would dilute the advantage of extra IPs somewhat.
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cryptoknight
post Aug 4 2008, 09:13 PM
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Why not have one initiative pass...

Take the highest initiative score and divide it by passes... say it's 15 with 3 IP...

You go at 15/10/5

Somebody else has 1 IP and rolls a 12... he goes at 12

another person rolls a 14 and has 2 IPs... and goes at 14/7

If somebody has high IPs and a low initiative... they get closer groupings... if somehow you had 3 IPs and rolled a 6... you'd go at 6/4/2
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psychophipps
post Aug 5 2008, 01:44 AM
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The issue wasn't, "Well, combat characters are better at combat!" Come on, guys. That one is a complete, "DUH!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

The problem we were having is that by spending only 32K (or 7BP with some left-over change and, again, who actually buys Level 1 wired?) you had "Good at combat" and "Completely pwns everyone who hasn't done the same thing." Just look at the math and tell me that an outlay starting at less than 2% of a character's starting BP with a potential 100-300% increase in damage-per-turn isn't a little broken?

Yeah, yeah...you can do it with magic too, but the initial outlay is huge compared to 7BP. Adepts need to buy "Adept" for 5BP and then still have to dump Magic at 10BP per point. Mages can do it too, but they have to buy "Magician" for 15BP, buy the correct spell that may or may not make sense to your character concept and even then not roll ass.

"B...b...b...but the essence cost is high!", some say. Yeah, like your last sammie build was really worried about Essence except in maybe making it harder for magic healing. Gimme a break! Essence for non-magic characters is a meter of how many goodies you can stuff in the box, nothing more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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cryptoknight
post Aug 5 2008, 02:39 PM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Aug 4 2008, 08:44 PM) *
The issue wasn't, "Well, combat characters are better at combat!" Come on, guys. That one is a complete, "DUH!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

The problem we were having is that by spending only 32K (or 7BP with some left-over change and, again, who actually buys Level 1 wired?) you had "Good at combat" and "Completely pwns everyone who hasn't done the same thing." Just look at the math and tell me that an outlay starting at less than 2% of a character's starting BP with a potential 100-300% increase in damage-per-turn isn't a little broken?


Actually I can trump that... For ¥10 I can buy a dose of Cram which does the same thing.

Also note, things such as suppressive fire last until the person firing the gun's next turn. Not to the next initiative pass... so 1 IP character that lay down suppressive fire are MORE effective with it than are characters with 4 IPs who do the same thing.
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masterofm
post Aug 5 2008, 07:25 PM
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No need to be snide psychophipps.

Starting off with the mage, you cast a force three (because that is the max you can cast on the spell) and you buy your hits if you roll 12 dice for spellcasting. Even so if you fail again and again you can easily slap down the drain. It's not insane, and it allows other party members to fight with more IP's if they wish to. The mage can group buff the entire party with this spell, so complaining that it costs 15 bps to become a mage seems somewhat odd. Also being a mage confers so many other awesome things that singling out one spell and saying that you pay through the nose in bp to get it seems a bit counterintuitive to me. It costs 4 bp to get the spell, that is unless you want to wait and pay for it in karma later then its a whopping 4 karma. I'm also not sure why having that spell would not fit any mages character concept. 4 IPs means the mage attacks or summons or does whatever s/he wants for 4 instead of 1. The mage can put the spell up on any other important character who would also be better at 4 IPs instead of 1.


I do however agree that adepts kind of get the shaft in the short term for 4 IPs. It is generally better for an adept to bone their magic and take the bio/cyberware to gain the extra 3 IPs in the end then taking 5 points in magic to do the same thing.... however adepts in the long term have better options to increase their dice pools (in any situation) then a mundane sammie. I mean having a character who goes from 6 magic to 1 because of cyber/bioware means that after a few sessions the character will be able to initiate twice and buy up their magic by a few points.

As for combat though, everyone goes on IP 1 so that means every single person on both sides of the fence can act. If you use drugs you can add an extra IP for next to no money. So that means if the characters in your party slapped up (the ones who only have 1 IP) then it means that they act on IP 2 as well. Then the dude with 4 IPs is only twice as effective, and only if the combat lasts that long.

In the end though it seems like the complaint is that non combat characters are complaining about the fact that they don't get to take place in the combat as much as the mundane combat monkey..... let me say mundane again. In the long term of Shadowrun mundanes can only go so far before it takes tons and tons and tons of karma just to boost their dicepools by a single die. That is what is more important in my opinion when dealing with how awesome cyber/bioware is. I mean for crimminies sakes a mundane can gain a +1 quite a few stats for just a few BPs. +1 logic = 2 BP per point. +1 Strength = 3 BP for bio. +1 Agility = about 3 BP for bio. 4 BP for +1 reaction. +1 Str and +1 Agility for 2 BP each rating if you take cyberware.

Yes you are exactly right psychophipps "Essence for non-magic characters is a meter of how many goodies you can stuff in the box, nothing more." Yet there is some pretty awesome things you can stuff into a cyber/bio mundane character for a small amount of BP/money if your argument is to throw essence loss right out the window. Also note that magical and mundane healing is affected by essence loss. After a while a cyber character just can't stuff more cyber and bio ware into their system. After they are done later in the long term of things an adept can grow faster then the cyber/bio mundane.

I feel in the end the combat system is balanced, because in the end Shadowrun is not just about combat. I mean time wise when it comes down to the hacker, or the face everyone else in the party generally has to stand back and give that person their turn.

*edit* this is my take on combat in SR and you have your own take. Glad it works with your group, but you can't expect posting something like that w/o people taking a critical eye to it. It is an interesting idea, but I would like to see what happens in this game longterm and what other tweaks will be needed to enhance the system you created. It just seems like after the 1st tweak that was made there is going to have to be further tweaks down the line to solve other potential problems it might create. Personally I would like to have the combat rounds drawn out to more then 3 seconds if multiple IPs are very common in a game while at the same time placing a greater roll on initiative. To each their own. *edit*
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VagabondStar
post Aug 5 2008, 07:48 PM
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I like the idea of passes a bit more than the previous systems of multiple actions in a round... but it does get a bit weird, especially when used to dealing with other game systems which need not be named here.

I agree that just removing all cyberware/bioware/magic that deals with passes may be your best option. Then there isn't all the mucking around with alternative rules and bonuses for compensation.

Of course, if you already have a game going, this isn't feasible, but the system you have sounds fine. If everyone is having fun that is what is important, right? Right?

Oh, silly me....
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