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> Martial Arts and the military/cops, What do they use?
mike_the_fish
post Dec 19 2003, 06:12 AM
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OK for the purposes of this thread, assume that we are talking about the martial arts rules from the Cannon Companion.

So in the new rules, there is no skill as "Unarmed Combat" anymore. You either have "Brawling" or some other martial arts style (kung fu or whatever).

Here is my question. The book describes Brawling as essentially "street fighting". Sort of a universal fighting style learned by the common man, across the globe. So that's all well and good for Joe Street Ganger, but what about a military spec forces member?

It is my understanding that military guys are not really trained in a specific martial arts "style". Rather they learn stuff from lots of different scources, sort of combined to make a hybrid style. Usually focused on disarming their opponents or crippling them as soon as possible, without a lot of fancy moves.

To me, this doesn't seem to fit the definition of the skill, "Brawling". Neither is it an actual "Martial Art". Military dudes seem to use a form of combat that is a little more refined than just a common street fighter, but more practical and less spiritual than a true martial art. Should they have their own fighting style? Or do you think that Brawling will get the job done well enough.
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Yum Donuts
post Dec 19 2003, 06:22 AM
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QUOTE (mike_the_fish)
To me, this doesn't seem to fit the definition of the skill, "Brawling". Neither is it an actual "Martial Art". Military dudes seem to use a form of combat that is a little more refined than just a common street fighter, but more practical and less spiritual than a true martial art. Should they have their own fighting style? Or do you think that Brawling will get the job done well enough.

you think sambo, krav magha, jiu jutsu, or savate are spiritual?
martial arts are not only monks in monastaries, they can also be just guys who are good at kicking ass. treat the martial arts there as paths that someone could follow. someone training in non-violent subdual may go on the path of aikido, even though they've never once worried about thier Chi. they just would never pick up the Focus Will maneuver.
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Fortune
post Dec 19 2003, 06:31 AM
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The Wildcat Martial Art is used by the Sioux Spec-Ops (appropriately named the Wildcats). It seems to be similar to Krav Magda (sp?), which is taught to some Spec-Ops groups in the present day.
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mike_the_fish
post Dec 19 2003, 06:40 AM
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QUOTE (Yum Donuts)

you think sambo, krav magha, jiu jutsu, or savate are spiritual?
martial arts are not only monks in monastaries, they can also be just guys who are good at kicking ass. treat the martial arts there as paths that someone could follow. someone training in non-violent subdual may go on the path of aikido, even though they've never once worried about thier Chi. they just would never pick up the Focus Will maneuver.

All right, all right. Yes I do know that. What I am trying to say is that I don't think a lot of military guys train with one spefic form of martial arts. Rather lots of them learn a little bit from here and there. Please don't get hung up on that one little off-hand comment.
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Tanka
post Dec 19 2003, 06:45 AM
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From what I've heard from a few of my friends who were in the military, you basically learn what is called "Ass Kicking 101," which involves lots of moves that cause pain and discomfort in the worst possible way, and if need be, death. Whether it be unarmed or armed with their now-empty gun, they learn how to tear somebody apart, or end it quickly enough that they can continue on.

In other words, look for the most offensive, debilitating, break-a-person-in-five-pieces-at-once form you can find, edit it a bit to be even more evil, and that's probably it.
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mike_the_fish
post Dec 19 2003, 06:52 AM
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So you are saying that an actual fighting style using the Cannon Companion's generation rules is the way to go? Rather than using Brawling?
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Tanka
post Dec 19 2003, 06:53 AM
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More than likely. Brawling isn't very good for fighting with immobile obstacles.

Usually.
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Yum Donuts
post Dec 19 2003, 06:54 AM
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I believe I did answer the question. I know alot of people who are "proffessional dablers" they get to the third belt of many martial arts and combine what they want into what works for them. One guy, Jalal, has slow feet, but fast hands with great accuracy. I would put him in context of Pentjack-Silat, which has no kick attack, but gives a bonus to called shots, and does have the maneuver of close combat, which he's good at.

I also know a girl, Amy, who is really quick and limber, and loves to use her legs to keep people at bay. I would put her under Savate, since she focuses on kick attacks, and would use both the herding and zoning options.

Personally, I am a grappler who does pretty well against a single opponent, but not great against multiple. I also prefer to draw out an attack and then counter when they're off guard. So I'd put myself under Sambo, because it's defensive with ground fighting, but no multi-strike. the lower TN for subduing combat would reflect being a damn good wrestler in high school.

Look at how the character should fight, and find the style that fits. who cares what you call it.
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Saintgrimm
post Dec 19 2003, 06:55 AM
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Also best to remember what Martial Arts means.

Martial Arts are the arts of war. Plain and simple. Combat.
Fighting with a Longsword, if you are trained in it's use, is a martial art.
Fighting with sticks, or bare hands, or guns. It's all Martial arts. Problem is, most people associate Martial arts with only eastern arts.

As to the question, I know that a lot of Military training is combinations of Kung-Fu, Aikido, and other martial arts.
If you are looking for something that individual corps might teach, think in these terms.

Does the Corp wish it's people to use Lethal Force or Non-Lethal force?
If they use Guns, do they use Batons or any other weapon?
If they use Guns, what is the purpose of the martial art? (This isn't asking "Why should I have martial arts when I have a gun," but more of a "I have a gun to provide a lethal dose. Do I need martial arts for Lethality in case my gun is taken from play? Or do I need it to protect myself from harm?)

Once you determine these, it's easier to decide if a hard or soft style is needed. Then you need to choose for flavor depending on the corp, the gov, etc.
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Yum Donuts
post Dec 19 2003, 06:59 AM
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another tactic that corps might use since they KNOW that shadowrunners will be coming in, and that it would be too expensive to train every guard to hold their own against a shadowrunner, is to use the power of numbers. train the guards in defence with the evasion maneuver and let the guard that the physad attacks just do his best to dodge while his team mates shoot at the attacker.
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Moonstone Spider
post Dec 19 2003, 09:05 AM
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Given it's description in CC Wildcat is what people are describing as the Special Forces martial art, a skill made from the deadliest moves of a dozen different arts built entirely around breaking people into 5 pieces fast. Just don't try to subdue anybody with it.

In other news does anybody think Martial Arts skills should be expanded to cover all the melee skills? Really there isn't just one form of using edged weapons, for instance, and there's a lot of maneuvers in armed combat as well. Certain of the Martial Arts, like Ninjitsu and Kung Fu, also have armed combat maneuvers but you have to study the unarmed version first, which doesn't make much sense if you want to be a fencing master.
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The Jopp
post Dec 19 2003, 09:35 AM
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I would believe that Lonestar would learn a combination of unarmed attack/defense coupled with Nightstick (club) for subduing an opponent. After all, that is what the P-24 Nightstick is used for, subduing a criminal so they can handcuff them.

I would say that in close combat they would have perhaps Pentjak-Silat (or equivalent) and be specialized in subduing an opponent.

They don't really need killing moves and break peoples limbs because that could lead to some severe lawsuits against the corporation due to headlines about rampant cops.

If they want to kill an opponent they DO have their Thunderbolt.
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Zazen
post Dec 19 2003, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (Saintgrimm)
Also best to remember what Martial Arts means.

Martial Arts are the arts of war. Plain and simple.

I've heard this before, and I asked what keeps a military aircraft designer from being called a "martial artist". I really feel that a definition should be more specific than that.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Dec 19 2003, 06:18 PM
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There should be some more specification, the current "martial arts" as people see them should be "martial dance." Design would be "martial drawing," construction would be "martial sculpting," etc.
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 19 2003, 06:34 PM
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No, some people just need to stop broadening the term. While the literal translation might be "the art of war," the term "martial art" has a specific meaning:

martial art, n. any of several arts of combat and self-defense.
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fourstring_samur...
post Dec 19 2003, 10:25 PM
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on a slightly related note, the cc isn't the most accurate on getting the arts right. I train muay thai, and have fought in the ring several times. I have never kip-upped(sp) nor had to use ground fighting. also, i've kneed and elbowed my way out of plenty enough clenches to know that the books limitation on muay thai (lack of enough space gets a penalty) is way off.

sorry if i've strayed off topic :)
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Siege
post Dec 19 2003, 11:28 PM
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You haven't strayed particularly, but as this topic is limited to the realm as defined by the CC, I'll try to frame my answer accordingly.

Cops may elect to learn Krav Maga and linear, brutal forms of unarmed combat on their own initiative.

However, can you imagine the public relations nightmare if this was standard training at the police academy?

There isn't a unified, formal hand-to-hand system taught across the board to every cop -- either irl or in SR (insofar as I know). Which means that self-defense is going to vary from state to state and even county to county.

Those lessons will be less of a traditional "martial art" like jujitsu, but rather have elements and techniques culled from a variety of styles -- usually at the discretion of the instructor. Which, in turn, moves full circle and could be called a martial art in its own right.

As for soldiers -- I'm told that most US troops aren't trained extensively in brutal hand-to-hand combat, although many people will learn on their own initiative. Military Police and SpecOps will see a higher degree of close-combat fighting as their job discription will often include such scenarios.

Never having served in the US services, I can neither confirm nor deny these reports.

By comparison, Krav Maga is taught openly and regularly at Israelie schools as a form of athletics and taught to all police and military personnel.

And as to how well and thoroughly developed the CC martials section is -- my opinion is decidedly negative.

-Siege
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Tziluthi
post Dec 20 2003, 02:38 AM
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But then again, if you knew that the cops in your city used Krav Maga, would try to beat up one of them? As far as the police knowing martial arts goes, I can tell you for a fact that Western Australian police going through the academy in Perth have, in the recent past, been taught basic essentials of a martial art as part of their self-defence program. And before you get images of Jackie Chan super cops running around the streets of Northbridge, I can assure you that their martial arts syllabus is pretty minimal, just enough to help them out of a tight spot.

But, in 60 or so years, with the meshing of cultures and that sort of thing, who is to say that martial arts will not be viewed as an essential part of close quarters training for police? Lots of armed forces use it nowadays, especially special forces units, and considering what the police often have to deal with, it wouldn't shock me to see more rigorous martial arts training in police forces in the near future.
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Siege
post Dec 20 2003, 09:15 AM
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I strongly advocate a heavier emphasis on unarmed combat for police units. The three key areas that should receive a lot of training: shooting, driving and unarmed combat. Leave that pesky "law" stuff to lawyers. "Sorry sir, that will be a ticket. Argue with the Judge."

However, I was giving current real-life examples -- if you want to rule that all cops in 2060 get heavy drilling in martial arts, go for it.

Cops in Georgia and South Dakota both receive the basics in self-defense. Is it the same program? Nope.

For that matter, cops in Columbus, GA and Athens, GA both receive self-defense training but it isn't the same program.

And I'll go one more -- it's not as emphasized nearly as much as it should be.

My two cents anyway.

-Siege
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Crusher Bob
post Dec 20 2003, 10:21 AM
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QUOTE (Siege)
I strongly advocate a heavier emphasis on unarmed combat for police units. The three key areas that should receive a lot of training: shooting, driving and unarmed combat. Leave that pesky "law" stuff to lawyers. "Sorry sir, that will be a ticket. Argue with the Judge."

...

-Siege

Don't forget running, first aid, and social engineering.
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Siege
post Dec 20 2003, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
QUOTE (Siege @ Dec 20 2003, 05:15 PM)
I strongly advocate a heavier emphasis on unarmed combat for police units.  The three key areas that should receive a lot of training: shooting, driving and unarmed combat.  Leave that pesky "law" stuff to lawyers.  "Sorry sir, that will be a ticket.  Argue with the Judge."

...

-Siege

Don't forget running, first aid, and social engineering.

First aid is a nice plus, but I think a number of agencies require paramedics or trained responder staff.

Running I'll give you.

Social eningeering? Does Darwin really need that much help? :grinbig:

-Siege
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Crusher Bob
post Dec 20 2003, 01:45 PM
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I'm talking about things like posture, eye contact, word choice, tone of voice... stuff like that. It's much better to get than mean drunk calmed down an on a cab home, than to have to spit out some teeth and subdue his ass. Every time some citizen who had to deal with the cops walks away thinking 'what a bunch of a-holes' and soon it'll be the cops vs everyone else.
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6thDragon
post Dec 20 2003, 03:32 PM
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For the longest time the US military dabbled with the idea of training its soldiers in martial arts. in the 80s it was determined to be ineffective. Simply put it takes a long time to train someone to be proficient, since martial arts is considerable different from regular brawling. They would simply train entry soldiers simple combat techniques. Nothing too complex and they drill home the muscle memory aspects. Things a soldier fresh out of bootcamp (if the army still calls it that) can perform. Recently the marines adopted their own martial arts style. They started training marines in bootcamp a couple months before I got out. I never paid that much attention to it, but I think it's just a little more complicated than what was taught before. Nothing that will take too long to learn, but something marines can build on once they hit the fleet. It is primarily designed to foster that aggressive spirit the marines strongly desire. And incorporate simple weapons much as bayonets, k-bars, and clubs.
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Siege
post Dec 20 2003, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
I'm talking about things like posture, eye contact, word choice, tone of voice... stuff like that. It's much better to get than mean drunk calmed down an on a cab home, than to have to spit out some teeth and subdue his ass. Every time some citizen who had to deal with the cops walks away thinking 'what a bunch of a-holes' and soon it'll be the cops vs everyone else.

Ahh, the whole "Customer Service" skillset.

Sure, I'll add that to the list of things that should receive focus. It might even help with residual stress and officer retention rates.

-Siege
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Siege
post Dec 20 2003, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (6thDragon)
For the longest time the US military dabbled with the idea of training its soldiers in martial arts. in the 80s it was determined to be ineffective. Simply put it takes a long time to train someone to be proficient, since martial arts is considerable different from regular brawling. They would simply train entry soldiers simple combat techniques. Nothing too complex and they drill home the muscle memory aspects. Things a soldier fresh out of bootcamp (if the army still calls it that) can perform. Recently the marines adopted their own martial arts style. They started training marines in bootcamp a couple months before I got out. I never paid that much attention to it, but I think it's just a little more complicated than what was taught before. Nothing that will take too long to learn, but something marines can build on once they hit the fleet. It is primarily designed to foster that aggressive spirit the marines strongly desire. And incorporate simple weapons much as bayonets, k-bars, and clubs.

I'm not advocating training soldiers in Karate or Tae Kwon Do. Such styles are complicated and require years to master effectively. That's a hallmark of most Asian forms.

By contrast, the fundamentals of a system like Krav Maga could be taught and learned effectively in a much shorter time frame. The techniques are simple and brutal with a focus on enabling the student to be effective with a faster turnaround time.

What I've read of the Marine Corps hand-to-hand program was designed with this concept in mind.

-Siege
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