Becoming the master of your domain, again. Options

[Sir_Psycho]

So all spirits can now go nearly everywhere. Hmmm...

How, without a mage, is a character supposed to deal with a spirit? We have conversations about using huge DP's or force of will attacks, but what about running? I've always felt that if a shadowrunner is outnumbered, outgunned, or unsure, he should run like the wind.

But with spirits, it's not an option. You can't run from something that can move hundreds of kilometers a second and can pass through solid objects, not to mention an inherent power to find you wherever you are, if you somehow manage to lose it (unlikely).

So how do you deal with a spirit if you don't want to go shout at it and punch it in the face? And you don't want to stand there shooting at it, of course.

There's the Petit Brume, but that only limits a spirit to less than 100 metres per combat turn. That's still faster than you, so it's going to eat you.

[Drogos]

Run inside a building with a ward...like a high end hotel.

[HeavyMetalYeti]

Can spirits pass through living objects? We allways said no. So a ivy or moss covered shack or wall was sufficient to stop it or any astral being that was projecting.

[Oenone]

Isn't that only awakened plants? Or else why did they grow awakend ivy as astral security?

You can always head some place crowded and hope one of the npc's has the right type of Spirit Bane..... Hardly the best trick but if all else fails.... (And if nothing else if innocent people get hurt corpsec might send out a mage to do your dirty work)

[VagabondStar]

Unfortunately, without matching magical firepower, there just isn't that much you can effectively do against a spirit. I mean, this is a creature that doesn't need to eat, sleep, breathe, age, etc. If it is ordered to hunt you down and kill you... well...

Unless you or someone you know is awakened, your hours are probably numbered.

[Wesley Street]

Here's a long and brutal discussion on the subject of which you speak. I believe the answers you seek are in there.

[Stahlseele]

and the number's not that big either.
as for living stuff? spirits can got hrough, awakened ivy or whatever glowed if it was touching an astral presence as far as i remember

[Tarantula]

Lose it in a crowd. The penalties for trying to follow a specific aura through a crowd are nasty. Pretty easy to confuse even the big nasty spirits that way.

[TonkaTuff]

Can spirits pass through living objects? We allways said no. So a ivy or moss covered shack or wall was sufficient to stop it or any astral being that was projecting.

This was true in first and second edition shadowrun. It was changed to require an active astral presence in third edition onward. It fixed some issues, but raised others.

[Cthulhudreams]

There is a 10 point negative quality in the runners companion that gives you a rating 4 background count.

This appears to own spirits and is basically made of win.

I would suggest it to you.

[Sir_Psycho]

Here's a long and brutal discussion on the subject of which you speak. I believe the answers you seek are in there.

The problem with that thread is 1) It's about how do kill spirits, predominately, and is bogged down with immunity to normal weapons arguments, and 2) Runners do not carry sniper rifles and elephant guns and EXEX/AP ammo and adepts with killing hands to throw with them at all time.

Spirits are fuck-off scary, and there should be some sort of viable escape method other than a huge gun or trying to punch it right in the face.

But when the slowest those things move is 100 mpt, how do you do anything before it's on top of you and eats you? Run to a warded hotel? Unless that hotel is a meter away and you're already running, the spirit just caught up to you in the blink of an eye and you just got eaten. Run into a crowd? Still, that crowd is probably more than a few meters away, so the spirit is going to eat you. And this is if you have cover from a petit brume grenade.

If I want to run away, rather than punch a fire spirit in the face, I want more options than crispy.

Basically, I want to know if I'm missing anything important about manatech. Is there actually a mundane device or technique for running or hiding from spirits (apparently even concealment doesn't work)? Does the stealth group work against a spirit?

Because if spirits are really so fast and immune to things that the best option is punching it in the face, I think I'm going to have to house-rule petit brume to create background count.

[sunnyside]

On running. Note that a spirit can't just jack you from the astral. It takes a complex action to switch over. So the pass it drops in all it can do is say "BOO!".

If you've got the initiative that gives you a chance to shoot it first. Or in the case of running to put some distance between you and the spirit. So what then? Depends on the spirit. Some are slow, and some are fast. Though now that they're material stuff can get in their way.

Wards are extrememly common in SR4. So running into a likely building or vehicle may do the trick. And it's quite possible the spirits will have trouble even within a corp compound. Alternatively you'd be looking for some background count to make the spirit managable.

By the way the linked thread said the taser/S&S rounds wouldn't work. Why is that?

[Stahlseele]

because, like elemental effects, they effectively halve any armor

[Blade]

By the way the linked thread said the taser/S&S rounds wouldn't work. Why is that?

Because Boyle said so. He said that spirit's armor is a magical armor and isn't affected by S&S, and spirits aren't affected by the electrical damages from S&S either.
As for the reason why, I guess you could ask 10 mages and get 15 different answers, all of them right. Go figure.

[Wesley Street]

Does the stealth group work against a spirit?

If the character was aware of said spirit prior to its attack I wouldn't see why not. The character would just need to get away before it materialized and attacked. If I was GMing (and if there's nothing in the rules contradicting this) I would make it an opposed test: spirit's Perception vs. character's Stealth group +/- any modifiers (ie background count, number of people in the area, etc).

[Sir_Psycho]

On running. Note that a spirit can't just jack you from the astral. It takes a complex action to switch over. So the pass it drops in all it can do is say "BOO!".

If you've got the initiative that gives you a chance to shoot it first. Or in the case of running to put some distance between you and the spirit. So what then? Depends on the spirit. Some are slow, and some are fast. Though now that they're material stuff can get in their way.

Wards are extrememly common in SR4. So running into a likely building or vehicle may do the trick. And it's quite possible the spirits will have trouble even within a corp compound. Alternatively you'd be looking for some background count to make the spirit managable.

That's interesting. Do you have any page references I can look up that back that up?

Also, do spirits move at astral speed or do they have a more mortal movement modifier? Because if they materialize and then can only run/fly at "physical" speed, then that would actually make a spirit chase quite fun. You run in and out of rooms, and they either have to take actions smashing doors down, or using complex actions to switch back to astral to find you and then materialize again to intercept. That would appease me, greatly.

Also, do Petit Brume grenades restrict materialized spirits, or just astral. Do they have physical sight when materialized, or are they still astrally perceiving?

[Shiloh]

Does the stealth group work against a spirit?

Yes. Even if it's astral/astrally perceiving, solid things throw solid shadows and Stealth therefore works against them.

[Shiloh]

Also, do spirits move at astral speed or do they have a more mortal movement modifier?

Without any materials to hand, I distinctly recall a "move" column in the spirit statblocks.

Because if they materialize and then can only run/fly at "physical" speed, then that would actually make a spirit chase quite fun. You run in and out of rooms, and they either have to take actions smashing doors down, or using complex actions to switch back to astral to find you and then materialize again to intercept. That would appease me, greatly.

Thats' how I'd see it.

[Cthulhudreams]

Materalisation is totally a complex action dude.

[Sir_Psycho]

That alleviates some of my concerns. Awesome.

So, regarding the thread title, we've done away with domains. However, can wind/air/storm types of spirits work indoors? Can a water spirit get you if you're say, on scaffolding or in some sort of giant collander/sieve? Spirits of man if you're a woman? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tarantula]

Yes to all the above

[Shiloh]

That alleviates some of my concerns. Awesome.

So, regarding the thread title, we've done away with domains. However, can wind/air/storm types of spirits work indoors? Can a water spirit get you if you're say, on scaffolding or in some sort of giant collander/sieve? Spirits of man if you're a woman? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Some Spirits might have difficulty or objections to going into certain places. A Fire spirit won't be keen on chasing you into a lake; that scaffold might not take the weight of an Earth spirit...

[Sir_Psycho]

I suppose there's no RAW to support this, but I'd definately dissalow or reduce the effectiveness of spirits in those situations.

I think a force restriction would help. For example, a materialized air spirit halves it's force while indoors, as it has no real environmental momentum to power it on the physical plane, so it has to exert more of it's energies to function. A fire spirit can follow you into a lake, but it loses force as it moves through, because it has to focus it's energy to instantly vaporize the water around itself to prevent being extinguished. A water spirit moving across a surface like a steel grate would lose force because part of it's body mass is pouring away, and it has to replenish it's water from the astral.

This would also mean that you could make a spirit easier to deal with by using your environment. For example if a fire spirit chases you into a building, you hack the fire suppression systems to reduce it's force, or you grab a wall extinguisher. Air spirit? Close the window, or if you can, fill the room with Halon gas (hope you have an internal air tank, though.) This could also mean a water spirit engulfing a fire spirit can win because it's beating down the force of it's opponent.

Awesome, I'm learning some interesting things from this thread.

[sunnyside]

That's interesting. Do you have any page references I can look up that back that up?

Also, do spirits move at astral speed or do they have a more mortal movement modifier? Because if they materialize and then can only run/fly at "physical" speed, then that would actually make a spirit chase quite fun. You run in and out of rooms, and they either have to take actions smashing doors down, or using complex actions to switch back to astral to find you and then materialize again to intercept. That would appease me, greatly.

Also, do Petit Brume grenades restrict materialized spirits, or just astral. Do they have physical sight when materialized, or are they still astrally perceiving?

Just look up the spirits stats. They have "move" listed for each one the same as all other critters. Some fly fast more than fast enough to run down any PC. Others plod along on the ground once material. THerefore you could certainly have an exciting chase scene if you pick the right spirit.

Remember it can always spend another complex action to go astral again and move at high speeds. So the chance might have a bit of a scooby doo feel as just when they think they've escaped they realize the spirit is in the closet with them (though again it can't act that pass as it just spent its complex action to materialize). So the players scream and start running again.

The only way to escape is crossing wards, crossing something else astrally active, getting into some background count, or going someplace where the spirit just can't track you.

Actually if I was making it into a movie scene I might have the hero pull out their streetline special, fire a bunch of rounds that miss, the spirit laughs for a moment at the punny mortal, and then the raw industrial earth violating radioactive sludge bursts from the pipe above them, the background count spikes ,and the spirit disapates.

On that note if you wanted to bring domains back a little via a semi RAW method you could be a bit selective in applying background count based on spirit type. While generally more about not being so affected by a background count the idea that background counts affect people differently is in there.

In the X rated version the hero manges to ditch the spirit temporarily in a crowd, but it'll use it's powers to find them. So now they've got only a few minutes with three women, a midget, and a shapershifter to get the background count up due to intense emotions and/or freaky stuff. Can they do it?


Oh and who is Boyle? Is the nerf to going ghostbusters on spirits published anywhere or is it that one of the catalyst guys said something on these boards?

[Blade]

Rob Boyle was the line developer before Peter Taylor (Synner) took Shadowrun in charge. What he said about S&S was IIRC a reply to an e-mail sent to the shadowrun FAQ. It should have been posted somewhere on Dumpshock.

Remember it can always spend another complex action to go astral again and move at high speeds. So the chance might have a bit of a scooby doo feel as just when they think they've escaped they realize the spirit is in the closet with them (though again it can't act that pass as it just spent its complex action to materialize). So the players scream and start running again.

Oh my god! Now I just need an ending where they remove the mask of the spirit to reveal who it really was!
"... And I would have succeeded if it wasn't for you, meddling Shadowrunners!"