Wall Between The Worlds, Page reference? Options

[Zen Shooter01]

Where exactly are the rules specifying how an astrally projecting magician may and may not affect material beings and objects?

[coolgrafix]

SR4, page 173 under Spellcasting, Step 3: Choose Target(s)...

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells -- even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving -- as it has no physical presence.

In some cases, the caster may need to make a Perception Test to determine if a given target can be seen well enough to target with a spell. This Perception Test is part of the Complex Action required to cast the spell and takes no time of its own. Visibility modifiers (including darkness, cover, and other impediments) noted for ranged combat also reduce the magician's Magic + Spellcasting dice pool when casting spells.

[Zen Shooter01]

Thank you, coolgraphix. Now - can an astrally projecting magician protect targets in the physical world with Counterspelling?

[SCARed]

as he has no real LOS (he is on a different plane) i would ruele: no, he cannot protect them with counterspelling.

things would be different, if one f his chummers would be astrally perceving, as this guy would be dual-natured and thus could be protected.

[Gelare]

I would agree that a magician on the astral plane could protect astral targets with counterspelling, while a magician on the physical plane could protect physical targets and an astrally perceiving magician can protect both astral and physical entities.

[Shiloh]

I would agree that a magician on the astral plane could protect astral targets with counterspelling, while a magician on the physical plane could protect physical targets and an astrally perceiving magician can protect both astral and physical entities.

I'd disagree about the astrally perceiving bit. They can't see any more of the Material than they can while projecting. Interesting limitation on Counterspelling.

[Isath]

Astrally perceiving characters are present on both planes, the astral and the physical. While astral perceiving a character can be targeted by spells from either plane and such I would say they can be protected by counterspelling from either plane aswell. This is not so much a matter of perceiving the meatbody from the astral, as an astral entity (like projecting mages) can target a characters aura, once it is astrally active.

[Shiloh]

Astrally perceiving characters are present on both planes, the astral and the physical. While astral perceiving a character can be targeted by spells from either plane and such I would say they can be protected by counterspelling from either plane aswell. This is not so much a matter of perceiving the meatbody from the astral, as an astral entity (like projecting mages) can target a characters aura, once it is astrally active.

I'm not disagreeing that the now-dual-natured character can be *targetted* from either plane. That's a given. Actually, it's a given for Projection, too, it's just that the meatbod is in a different place to the spiritbod... which is a neat rationale for why a Astrally perceiving character cannot Counterspell targets on the Material: their spiritbod is on the Astral and it's the spirity bit that does the mojo.

[Ancient History]

Don't forget astrally projecting characters that are manifesting.

[Isath]

which is a neat rationale for why a Astrally perceiving character cannot Counterspell targets on the Material: their spiritbod is on the Astral and it's the spirity bit that does the mojo.

This is where I object. astral perception lets you glimpse into the astral plane, but do not fully cross the border. The "spirit" is still residing in the body (obviously). But as it is somewhat odd or endless to diskuss different perceptions of a metaphisical plane in a fantasy world, as there just is nothing to proof. I will take a little pick at the source. Physical, nonmagical actions have a -2 while you are astrally perceiving, magical actions on the physical plane seem not to be restricted out of the way. On the astral you can cast mana spells and are restricted to your body, astrally attackable though. You gain access to your astralbody by fully projecting. I remember certain metamagical practices in former editions, that need you to astrally perceive while working makic on the physical plane (though I am not 100% about 4th Ed.).

If you can cast spells on the physical you will most probably be able to counterspell there aswell. None of the restrictions that are mentioned for astrally the perceiving, include counterspeling. While dual natured beings do not have the negative modifier of 2 on physical actions, because they are more natural to duallity, they would not be able to counterspell or work magic at all on the physical plane, following your argumentation.

While astrally perceiving you have access to both worlds. That is what I stick with, as to me, it makes perfect sense, from multiple points of view.

Don't forget astrally projecting characters that are manifesting.

why...? What about them?

[coolgrafix]

Slight correction on my previous post.

SR4, page 175, under Ritual Targeting indicates that it supercedes the normal targeting rules for being on the same plane. A member of the ritual team can travel astrally to the location of a mundane's location and only needs to be able to assense the target. Read for all the details.

Also, I believe I have an answer for your Spell Defense across planes question...

SR4, page 176, under Spell Defense and then under Dispelling Sustained Spells. The text under Spell Defense only says that line of sight must be maintained. But under Dispelling Sustained Spells they explicitly declare that the dispeller and spell must be on the same plane. So, reading it this may indicates that you can provide defense from the Astral. Might be a FAQ on it.

[coolgrafix]

Ok, no FAQ item, just checked.