Karma-based Chargen and Technomancers, Holy shit... Options

[Abschalten]

Okay, in one of the other threads concerning Runner's Companion, a poster made mention that karma-based character generation was a boon for technomancers. Personally, I was a little skeptical of it, so I decided to use the rules for karma-based character generation in Runner's Companion and make a mock technomancer.

All I have to say, simply, is holy shit. I think karma-based character generation is the boon that technomancer players have been waiting for.

I mean, the technomancer I've made isn't totally broken at all, but he's a hell of alot better than ones I was able to create with 400 BPs and even its linear costs and flat BP prices for complex forms.

I should note here that this was based on a human character. With the discussions I've read about concerning the metatypes/variants and the perks they get in karmagen for their attribute bonuses, I'm sure you could go a little bit further.

[ Spoiler ]

CODE

Attributes (306)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Body               3 15
Agility            3 15
Reaction           3 15
Strength           3 15
--------------------
Charisma           5 42
Intuition          5 42
Logic              5 42
Willpower          5 42
--------------------
Initiative         8
Initiative Passes  1
Edge               5 36
Resonance          5 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Complex Forms (160)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyze  5  16
Stealth  5  16
Edit     5  16
Encrypt  5  16
Armor    5  16
Exploit  5  16
Command  5  16
Browse   5  16
Scan     5  16
Spoof    5  16
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Active Skills (250)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(Cracking Skill Group) 4  55
   Hacking
   Cybercombat
   Electronic Warfare

(Electronics Skill Group) 4 55
   Data Search
   Computer
   Hardware
   Software

(Tasking Skill Group) 4 55
   Compiling
   Registering
   Decompiling

Influence Skill Group) 3 35
   Negotiation
   Con
   Leadership
   Etiquette

Running              2  8
Pistols              2  8
Unarmed Combat       1  4
Infiltration         2  8
Pilot Ground Craft   3 14
Dodge                2  8

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not done. I still have 34 karma left to toss around on things like contacts and Resources.

I soft-capped Resonance at 5, and I even took Edge at 5. I still did not hit the 375 karma limit for attributes that go along with 750 karma for chargen.

My qualities I maxed out both ways, 70 karma in positives and 70 karma in negatives, so for that reason I didn't list them here. If I'd given up stuff like Perceptive and Paragon I could've gotten even more to spend.

I was doing a little bit of min-maxing with the attributes and complex forms to see how far I could go before running out of karma. If I were to build a real PC techno to use in a game he wouldn't have such even numbers, and he'd be a little more diversified across the board. This was just for me to see what kind of results I could get out of the karma-based chargen for the archetype.

Has anybody tried making a magician with the new karma rules? I'd be interested in seeing how that turned out. I somewhat wonder if karma generation wasn't made with awakened and technos in mind, so that they'd have a bit of a kick in the ass going out of the character generation door.

Thoughts?

[MJBurrage]

No Perception skill? Otherwise looks playable to me.

[Abschalten]

No Perception skill? Otherwise looks playable to me.

Yeah, I was rushing quite a bit. I'm sure there's some things I missed. I could quite easily drop something down, say, Edge to 4 and have plenty of karma to raise Perception. Or hell, I could just use 8 of my remaining 34 points to raise it to 2, and along with my Intuition of 5 I'd still have 7 dice, +3 if I'm actively searching for something.

[De Badd Ass]

Yeah, I was rushing quite a bit. I'm sure there's some things I missed. I could quite easily drop something down, say, Edge to 4 and have plenty of karma to raise Perception. Or hell, I could just use 8 of my remaining 34 points to raise it to 2, and along with my Intuition of 5 I'd still have 7 dice, +3 if I'm actively searching for something.

You forgot Perception, and you forgot the Technomancer Quality. PLUS....

You missed one big thing: The only free Knowledge skill in the Karma system is the N for Native Language. You did not specify any knowledge skills for this character (I guess it's possible that you didn't "forget", and just chose not to give your Technomancer any knowledge skills. I notice that many players never actually use their knowledge skills during game play. In that case - this is the cheese in the Karma system).

KS 1 costs 1; KS 2 costs 3; KS 3 costs 6; KS 4 costs 10; KS 5 costs 15; KS 6 costs 21.

I tried converting my 400 BP Technomancer to Karma Build. He also has Intuition 5, Logic 5. His knowledge skills are 3, 4, 4, 4, 3, 4, 2, 3, 3 for 30 BP. This converts to 69 Karma Points.

My Technomancer also has Perception 3. That converts to 14 Karma.

My Technomancer has +10 BP and -35 BP in qualities. This converts to -50 Karma. His Resources equals 4 and his Contacts equals 10. This converts to 28 Karma.

If I accept your Attributes and Skills; and add Perception, Qualities, Knowledges, Contacts, and Resources from my build, I would have to add 14 -50 + 69 +28 = 61 Karma (or -8 if you drop the knowledge. You could use those 8 to buy a language).

I don't know about the rest of you. I think a PC without any knowledge skills is "broken".

Oops: I just read that your build has equal positive and negative qualities. In that case, add 111 (or 42) Karma.

[Abschalten]

I've already mentioned that's not a full character sheet. I was rushing it to see how far I could take the karma points. And I already commented above that the costs of my positive and negative qualities was even, at 70 karma both ways, so I didn't include it. I didn't "forget" anything.

[ElFenrir]

Has anybody tried making a magician with the new karma rules? I'd be interested in seeing how that turned out. I somewhat wonder if karma generation wasn't made with awakened and technos in mind, so that they'd have a bit of a kick in the ass going out of the character generation door.

I did indeed remake my combat mage with the karma rules. It turned out nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I'll post it later, if you would like to see how it came out.

[Rasumichin]

A guest poster on another board rebuilt the BBB archetypes with karmagen and got the following results :

Bounty Hunter - 488
Combat Mage - 434
Covert Ops Specialist - 491
Drone Rigger - 520
Enforcer - 517
Face - 494
Gunslinger Adept - 461
Hacker - 523
Occult Investigator - 464
Radical Eco-Shaman - 454
Smuggler - 485
Sprawl Ganger - 495
Street Samurai - 512
Street Shaman - 417
Technomancer - 543
Weapons Specialist - 466

Haven't checked wether these results are correct, but you'll notice that each and every one of these would still have at least 207 karma points to spend if made with 750 points.

When looking at these numbers, it shouldn't surprise anyone that karma-generated PCs are that much more powerful.

I'm quite certain that this will also hold true for any other type of character, not only technomancers (note that the TM is the most expensive of the archetypes).
Of course, the fact that you don't have to sqeeze every single point out of your build will be most striking when looking at character types like TMs and mages, for whom it is more difficult to come up with a viable build under standard chargen.

[Lothyrawir]

I am sure that the 750 karma will come down before things actually go to printing. Based on this if you take a standard 400 bp character and do the exact same thing with the karma based chargen. the average is somewhere in the 450 range.

[ElFenrir]

I like the fact the karma-gen is around 750. They even said the GM can lower it. Besides, I kinda like having several different chargen methods for different types of campaigns. Karma based is pretty healthy, but it's more a more semi-pro type of campaign, and also for a nice wide spread of skills and attributes. They mentioned 500 karma for a more lower-end campaign, if I recall.

Still typing up the mage to compare. (I had mentioned in the other thread, the mage ended up more or less spread out more than die-pool inflated. It's really working well so far.)

[It trolls!]

I haven't toyed around with it much yet, but in the Karma system, technomancers should be more behind other characters because of the increasing cost of CFs. BUT the recommended creation Karma of 750 generally makes for stronger characters and therefore there's much less strain on your pool than with 400 BP when building a TM character. Therefor the result will naturally be more well-rounded.

One could complain that the karma system isn't compatible with BP creation but I'd rather enforce the same creation for all characters in one campaign anyhow. As for myself, I'm starting a new game in September and I'm planning to test the Karma system to it's limits there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ElFenrir]

One could complain that the karma system isn't compatible with BP creation but I'd rather enforce the same creation for all characters in one campaign anyhow. As for myself, I'm starting a new game in September and I'm planning to test the Karma system to it's limits there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Totally. I would never do a mix of chargen systems(unless a player REALLY REALLY wanted to.) If i told everyone to use Karma, and one player INSISTED on BP...well, I won't take that from them, but I'll warn them they may be a bit behind(I would probably dump some more BPs on them.)

But yeah, I think folks are looking at it too much like mixing and matching. Honestly, for the book opposition, for a 750 Karma based game, I'd probably just give the opposing teams in the BBB an extra 1 across the board in stats and skills, and it would even out. The caps are still in place(1 attribute at 6 in chargen, skill caps, nuyen cap) again, the characters grow out much more than up, in the characters I converted. (eventually, it woiuld be nice to see a set of opposition that were made with Karma. Break down the karma cost of the BBB opposition, tack 50-100 onto that, and I think it would be very balanced.)

[KCKitsune]

A guest poster on another board rebuilt the BBB archetypes with karmagen and got the following results :

Do you know where I can find this Karmagen character generator?

[Jaid]

Do you know where I can find this Karmagen character generator?

Runner's Companion

[Odsh]

With 750 karma, it is possible to create a human with 5 in all his attributes (without magic).
Question to the devs: was that really intended ?

[ElFenrir]

Alrighty, here's Lexiss, done with 750 karma. (Keep in mind we use some SR3 negative and positive qualities, and we don't play with an Availability limit at chargen, so all of his gear is indeed legal in our games. He has a couple of pieces that go beyond the normal 12 limit.) I have the math scribbled down on another sheet of paper, I'll rebreak it down, but I did add it a couple of times, and it came out to 750.

He's a balanced martial artist/spellcaster. No firearms skills, but his Manabolt can handle most ranged instances for now.

[ Spoiler ]

Name: Lexiss F. Kiesl
Race: Human
Gender: Male
Age: 30
Height: 6'
Weight: 165lbs
Hair: Reddish-brown, medium-long, straight
Eyes: Amber


+ Qualities(70 Karma):
Magician(30)
Martial Arts(Savate, Lv. 2-+2 unarmed DV)-20
Guts(10)
Analytic Mind(10)

- Qualities(+70 Karma):
SINner(+10)
Enemy(+10)
Allergy-Mild, Soy(+20)
Dark Secret(+20)
Astral Beacon(+10)

Attributes:

Body: 4(5)
Agility: 4(5)
Reaction: 3(4)
Strength: 4(5)
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 3
Logic: 5(6)
Willpower: 5
Edge: 2
Magic: 6(5)
Initative: 6(7)/1[9/3 with focus active]
Essence: 5

Cost: 270 Karma(including Magic)

Active Skills:

Conjuring Skill Group: 1
Athletics Skill Group: 2
Spellcasting: 5
Counterspelling: 4
Astral Combat: 3
Assensing: 3
Arcana(Spell Design): 2(+2)
Enchanting(Alchemy): 3(+2)
Unarmed Combat(Martial Arts): 5(+2)
Clubs(Staves): 1(+2)
Etiquette(Magical): 3(+2)
Intimidation(Mental): 3(+2)
Perception: 3

Cost: 224 Karma

Knowledge/Language Skills:

Occult: 5
Magic Background: 4
Forbidden Literature: 4
Anatomy: 2
Old Imported Wines: 1
Martial Arts History: 2
Martial Arts Techniques(Lethal): 2(+2)

English: N
Latin: 4

Cost: 65 Karma

Martial Arts Manuevers(I don't know what these cost off the top of my head, but I paid 5 Karma each for them, or 20 total.)

Kick Attack
Riposte
Watchful Guard
Finishing Blow

Cyberware/Bioware:

Suprathyroid(.7 ess, 45k)
Synthacardium(Lv. 1, 10k, .1 ess)
Cerebral Booster(Lv. 1, 10k, .2 ess)

Nuyen: 237,500(95 Karma)

Spells(50 Karma):

Manabolt
Manaball
Mind Probe
Levitate
Increase Reflexes
Ball Lightning
Ignite
Mass Agony
Dream
Improved Invisibility

Foci:

Sustaining Focus Lv. 4(40k), Increase Reflexes Lv. 2(4 successes). Paid 8 Karma to bond.

Contacts(26 Karma):

Fixer: C3 L2
Talismonger: C2 L1
Occultist: C2 L3

Total Karma Cost: 750

Lifestyle: 11,000/month, High, 20 Lifestyle Points
Comfort: 6 Entertainment: 3 Neighborhood: 3 Security: 4 Necessities: 4

Didn't post all of his gear. Has armor, fake IDs, commlink, Hardliner gloves, etc.

Well, there he is. Honestly, none of his die pools are massively excessive. He's quite well-rounded, though. Is he more well rounded than a typical 400 BP combat mage? Certainly so...but in the times where we played ''twink-a-thon'' for the hell of it with 400 BPs, just to see what we could make...I have made, and seen, a LOT worse.

I really don't see this guy being the king of the roost and throwing off the game totally if he were in a 400 BP party. He's not a great summoner(goes with his personality), his casting pools aren't twinked to all hell, he's good, but not fantabulous in astral combat or assensing, and the same with arcana and enchanting. Now, his martial arts skill is scary(with his Hardliner gloves and boots-yes, we made the boots too in our game, he's 6P unarmed damage, and throws 12 dice(13 with his Kick reach), making him quite a tangle...but I still don't think he's a monster compared to, say, a specialized Sword Adept who is probably throwing 20 dice and counterattacking every time.

His spell list is impressive, though, at a full 10.

IMO, he's good, very good, but really, this doesn't look terribly unbalanced to me, and hell, we even have our no Availability limit to houserules(if for some reason we didn't, I could just as easily ditch one of the + qualities for Restricted Gear to make him totally legal in any campaign.)

But again, Karma characters, IMO, are meant to be played with other Karma characters, and not with BP characters.

[KCKitsune]

Runner's Companion

I thought it was a computer program.

[Cthulhudreams]

I made a 750 karma character who was a reasonable hacker, had strong automatics and melee weapons capability, serious spellcaster (full mage), specalised summoner, 3 IPs thanks to spell casting.

Pretty strong all round. He could throw down in pretty much every role in the game - only weak point was a lack of 'face' capability.

[Ancient History]

It is suggested that all players in a campaign build their characters with the same system simply because of the disparity that can develop.

[Cthulhudreams]

it would have been nice to preserve compatibility with published adventures though. While a 750 karma character is unlikely to have a bigger primary dicepool than a 400 BP character, he will have a much larger range of skills, including significant secondary capability.

750 karma characters will blow straight through missions games designed for 400 BP characters.

[It trolls!]

My theory about the recommended amount of karma for the karmagen inolves Rotbart van Dainig and ritual casted Mind control (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ElFenrir]

Well, I sorta look at the 750 karmagen method as best also for customized campaigns, homebrew campaigns where you are setting the challenge level.


I dunno. I guess as a GM AND as a player, I like to see book methods that allow you a wide range of characters and character levels. For example, i recall the 120-123 BP method in the SR3 book to be fairly powerful, and characters made under that level, on average, had some stuff at a slightly elevated level than the book version/priority system. BeCKS, also, tended to make much broader characters than priority. (It seemed that BEcks=much more spread out, Priority: Basic, BP system, slightly above the average but not insane.)

That's how I see this, only a bit different. This Priority system actually seems to favor folks who LIKE to hard max, and I would say that's the system that might have some inflated die pools. IMO, I'd rather see a character keep their 14-18 couple high level die pools..and rather add to them, spread out and get even 3-4 moderate level skills each with a bit better attribute spread.

I dunno. Maybe i'm just too nice of a GM, maybe I'm a strong believer in 'make the character you exactly see in your head...but leave em some room to grow, too'', or maybe I just prefer a more semi-pro campaign than new, wet-behind-the-ears runners.

IMO, the best way to test it is try. See how badly a more broad character will supposedly hose one of those published campaigns. I might be looking at it the wrong way, but it seems that the most it will do is allow the party to split up more often, or allow the technomancer to not die from a light pistol round. If it does unbalance it too much, and you want to keep the level down? drop the point number yourself. It doesn't matter that the book says 750, you can do 600, or 800, or 500, or 1500 if you want at your table.

Me, I like how they give the option for a more semipro game, more like the SR3 level. There is still 400 BP for more new runners, and there is still the priority system for...well, if someone figures out which road that is best for(again, I notice either more lower level spreads or more max-oriented people.)

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Hey, I like it if for no other reason than that it takes out of the system a quantity we never see again: BP.

[AngelisStorm]

...from what I've read here, isn't the point that 750pts would throw off game balance?

Yes, you could lower the 750 point level down. But you can do the same thing with BP, but just add some (our games, for example, are generally 450).

Why would they make a character creation system for the main rulebook, set it at a given level, then add a suplement book, make another character creation system, and set it significantly more powerful? Just seems hokey to me.

I just would like the two to be reasonably balanced against one another, so that the GM doesn't have to worry about power scaling. And then the GM can adjust it up or down, to suit taste.

[ElFenrir]

I just can't get it out of my head that this was indeed playtested and approved at 750 karma.

Now, is playtesting 100% accurate all the time? Of course not. No matter how long or how well you playtest something, things will fall through the cracks.

Perhaps I'm a bit trusting, but I can't help but think that the devs tried this, playtested it, and approved this in the book for a reason.

I guess I might be looking for something different, too. When I hear ''Significant Power Increase'', I imagine characters running around with 6-10 skills with 6-8 more DP EACH, tons of gear with more uber properties, and the like. To me, 3-4 more active skills around level 2-3(possibly with specializations) and maybe an extra 1 attribute across the board with a few extra goodies of gear/couple more spells is not ''significiant''...but this might be a case of YMMV.

[Odsh]

I guess I might be looking for something different, too. When I hear ''Significant Power Increase'', I imagine characters running around with 6-10 skills with 6-8 more DP EACH, tons of gear with more uber properties, and the like. To me, 3-4 more active skills around level 2-3(possibly with specializations) and maybe an extra 1 attribute across the board with a few extra goodies of gear/couple more spells is not ''significiant''...but this might be a case of YMMV.

With 750 karma you can make a starting human character with 5 in all attributes, including edge, for 372 karma. That leaves you with 378 karma for the rest, which is more than enough.
With BP, you would need 350 BP for attributes only, which is not even allowed, leaving you with 50BP for anything else.

I call that a significant power increase.