Full auto sniping, Whe your players are sniping goons at 500 meters+ with full auto guns Options

[It trolls!]

FYI, its Rob Furlong with the world record. (Another note you didn't point out, he took 3 shots. One missed, one hit the guys knapsack, and the last killed.)

Of course, the guy (Carlos Hathcock) who held the record before him, (short by 144m) made his record with a browning m2 .50 bmg machine gun with a scope on it. And that record held for 35 years. I don't think your point holds much weight.

Though you might ask: Was Hathcock's shot a precision shot or a lucky bullet during full-auto spraying a target?

On the topic of semi-auto vs. bolt-action I'd say if not today, by 2070 engineering should be way beyond what is needed to build semiautomatic rifles that offer equivalent accuracy.
I mean, you could assemble a sniper rifle part by part in a nanoforge, completely accurate to the molecule.

[CanRay]

Didn't Hathcock "Feather" the trigger to set off single-shots?

At least, that was the impression I got from what I heard about him.

[Stahlseele]

isn't the browning M2 .50 the light fifty the base modell for the M(A" Barret Sniper Rifle anyway?

[Tarantula]

From what I can find, wikipedia says the m2 was accurate to 2500 yds when fired single-shot. It doesn't say how that was accomplished.

[Stahlseele]

accurate depending on the definition of the word . . as it's role was to be a light anti vehicle weapon, it was accurate enough to reliably hit a moving vehicle at 2500 yards . .
confirmed kill for single person with one of those babies i've heard from was about 1800 to 2000m or something along those lines . .

[Tarantula]

accurate depending on the definition of the word . . as it's role was to be a light anti vehicle weapon, it was accurate enough to reliably hit a moving vehicle at 2500 yards . .
confirmed kill for single person with one of those babies i've heard from was about 1800 to 2000m or something along those lines . .

It was 2,286m, and I gave you the name of the guy who did it. Sheesh.

[Suriyel]

isn't the browning M2 .50 the light fifty the base modell for the M(A" Barret Sniper Rifle anyway?

The Barrett is the Light Fifty (clocking in around 30lbs) and other than the common ammunition is a completely distinct weapon from the M2 (clocking in around 80 pounds, weapon only).

[Mäx]

And, as far as I know, gas vent is a technology that already exists today (maybe in rudimentary form on AK-97+ rifles and stuff) and we don't see they losing all they recoil.

Gas vent isn't exacty enough to remove full-auto recoil is SR either, so i fail to see your point.
and you can not get gas vent for a sniper rifle anyway. I would like to see how they got 10 points of recoil comp with out bi/tripod or gyro harness.

[Stahlseele]

It was 2,286m, and I gave you the name of the guy who did it. Sheesh.

weren't you talking about yards?

[Tarantula]

Was referencing wikipedia, which says a m2 is accurate out to 2,500 yards. His kill record is measure in meters, at 2286 Meters. Which, conveniently enough, equals 2500 yards.

[hyzmarca]

It is important to remember that there is a huge difference between sniping and shooting shit.

If you're going to wait on your belly for six hours without moving a muscle while wearing a suit made out of plants just so that you can get that one perfect shot at a target two and a half miles away, then you will want as few moving parts as is feasible.

But most people aren't going to be doing that. Most people are going to be shooting shit.

One important thing to remember when shooting shit is that there comes a point where automatic bursts actually make you more accurate. If you're shooting at a target five or six hundred yards away with a M16A2 then you're going o switch to burst fire mode or you're going to miss. There really is no middle ground there. At that distance, the weapon's accuracy is so abysmal that you might as well just drop it and buy a lottery ticket if your goal is pinpoint shooting. But a burst fires a pattern, almost like a shotgun. That pattern greatly increases the probability of a hit at extreme ranges. Most bullets will miss, but you'll put substantially more on target than you would have using single aimed shots.

Wide bursts and suppressive fire both simulate this somewhat, but not entirely. This is, unfortunately, the price paid for using a system that doesn't calculate bullet trajectories with trigonometry. Since all firing is abstract, I don't have a problem with acturate long range fully automatic shooting.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

Cant we use trig in game?

I wanna.

Maybe anyone who cant solve a formula within 6 seconds misses?

[Tarantula]

If I have a smartlink system does that mean I get to use my math programs on the laptop?

[Cthulhudreams]

Its totally wacky that people don't think that mounted automatic weapons are highly accurate? Whats the accurate range on the 25MM chaingun mounted on LAVs? Pretty sure its over 3000 meters, and I'm pretty sure the RADEN is accurate out that far too.

The pintled mounted HMGs firing bursts are much more likely to hit anything at extreme ranges than a sniper rifle, thanks in part to superior stablisation.

[Zombayz]

As a weapons nut I can tell you that a bolt action is inherently more accurate then a semi- or full-auto, because of the fewer moving parts(less vibrations=more accurate). However, with a full auto, you can throw out enough shells to make up the difference. Add in things like gas vents, pintle mounts, and other such things, and you can put out enough lead acurately to hit a target at those exteme ranges.

[kzt]

If you're shooting at a target five or six hundred yards away with a M16A2 then you're going o switch to burst fire mode or you're going to miss.

Hell NO.

It's perfectly possible to shoot someone 500 meters away with an M16a2 on semi, if you know what you are doing. The effective range of an M16A2 is 550 meters (the range at which an average troop can be reasonably expected to hit point targets). The basic USMC M16A2 qualification stage 5 is at 500 meters. Fired on semi.

Burst/automatic fire is for CLOSE range. Shooting long range targets on burst/automatic will, at best, produce no additional hits.

" Effectiveness of Automatic or Burst Fire. Automatic or burst fire is inherently less accurate than semiautomatic fire. The first full-automatic shot fired may be on target, but recoil and a high-cyclic rate of fire often combine to place subsequent rounds far from the desired point of impact. Even controlled (three-round burst) automatic or burst fire may place only one round on the target. ... Closely spaced multiple targets, appearing at the same time at 50 meters or closer, may be engaged effectively with automatic or burst fire. More widely spaced targets appearing at greater distances should be engaged with semiautomatic fire."

[hyzmarca]

I have crappy depth perception, but the central point remains. Once you are past the range at which you can aim effectively, more bullets simply increases the probability that at least one of them will hit. You may only get one hit out of three shots (or worse), but that is certainly better than no hits out of one shot.

[toturi]

Burst/automatic fire is for CLOSE range. Shooting long range targets on burst/automatic will, at best, produce no additional hits.

Not quite true. Burst fire is for engaging target/s that are within your cone of fire, which is defined as the probability cone in which a large percentage of rounds are most likely to hit, in the shortest time possible.

I have managed to engage 2-3 man sized targets at a range of 800m with my GPMG. Sure, if you can fire 3 single rounds in quick succession, you can bring down all 3 targets fairly quickly. But if the targets exposure times are only a couple of seconds, your best bet is a burst.

[Chrysalis]

Choose the third floor of a building made using reinforced concrete. Keep the rifle far back in the room. Possibly with the creation of a hole if there is no window. The building should have multiple underground exit points.

Alternatively the use of a helicopter with a control rig is also possible.

Anything that involves a target which demands more than three shots should be done in an urban setting with explosives.

150 meters assault rifle, 300 meters machine gun, 450+ meters sniper rifle, 1000+ meters .50 caliber rifle.

Of course this is today so I could just have a rifle which is mounted on a computer controlled rig and have it controlled either by mobile phone, radio or a tracker. This is all rather old technology too, at least 10 years now.

[Shiloh]

...record with a browning m2 .50 bmg machine gun with a scope on it. And that record held for 35 years. I don't think your point holds much weight.

And a *tripod*. Mounted weapons have different parameters. People who are concerned with seconds of arc groupings at over 1000m tend to prefer bolt actions. Much of the recoil compensation available in SR is available today: gas vent, "shock pads", heavy barrels. A proportion of snipers and serious lon range target shooters do use semi-auto rifles, even some militaries issue SA rifles to their marksmen, but none use full auto.

Sure, RAW doesn't penalise recoil-y operation more at long range than at short, but there are holes in RAW that do need plugging, and this is probably one of them if you want to maintain any verisimilitude: the sesigned sniper riles don't include any full-auto-only ones, do they?.

[Nkari]

Indeed.. at 600m it is not THAT big of a deal to hit your stationary target within 10-15cm repeatedly IF you are properly braced, with little to no wind, clear LOS, etc with a AK5, try to fire a burst at that range and you will fint that you hit very little, mabye the first slug will hit the intended target, but nr2 and nr 3 will 100% not hit the target because of the deviation made by the recoil and the warping of the barrel, and at ranges of 600m the dispersion of the bullets would be close to 1-4 feet between each bullet depending on the weight of the projectile, its aerodynamica and a shit load of other factors..


I could not feasibly see anything other than .50 or heavier rounds having any reliable accuracy at ranges over 600m.. in anything but perfect conditions..
especially not when fired in bursts or full auto, unless vehicle mounted, then its only the warping of the barrel you have to take into account, the rest of the recoil is 0.. Chainguns help with this as they shift barrels, giving the barrel just used time to stabilize enough to provide acurate fire when it is its time to guide the projectile..

[Shiloh]

I could not feasibly see anything other than .50 or heavier rounds having any reliable accuracy at ranges over 600m.. in anything but perfect conditions..
especially not when fired in bursts or full auto, unless vehicle mounted, then its only the warping of the barrel you have to take into account, the rest of the recoil is 0.. Chainguns help with this as they shift barrels, giving the barrel just used time to stabilize enough to provide acurate fire when it is its time to guide the projectile..

.303 shoots straight way past that. Record (yes, I know it's an extreme, but 2300m is extreme for a tripod-mounted BMG) is 1500m or so, IIRC. That's a *mile*.

[toturi]

Indeed.. at 600m it is not THAT big of a deal to hit your stationary target within 10-15cm repeatedly IF you are properly braced, with little to no wind, clear LOS, etc with a AK5, try to fire a burst at that range and you will fint that you hit very little, mabye the first slug will hit the intended target, but nr2 and nr 3 will 100% not hit the target because of the deviation made by the recoil and the warping of the barrel, and at ranges of 600m the dispersion of the bullets would be close to 1-4 feet between each bullet depending on the weight of the projectile, its aerodynamica and a shit load of other factors..


I could not feasibly see anything other than .50 or heavier rounds having any reliable accuracy at ranges over 600m.. in anything but perfect conditions..
especially not when fired in bursts or full auto, unless vehicle mounted, then its only the warping of the barrel you have to take into account, the rest of the recoil is 0.. Chainguns help with this as they shift barrels, giving the barrel just used time to stabilize enough to provide acurate fire when it is its time to guide the projectile..

You can reliably hit a 1.5m x 1.5m square with the second round of a burst, with 25mm rounds at 800m. You just need a heavier barrel and a lot of bracing. Can be done, I have seen it done before.

[Tarantula]

Let me put it this way, getting a bipod/tripod in SR4 rule terms = recoil comp. If you can get equivalent recoil comp from other mods (gyro harness, mounting on a vehicle, being a strong bastard, etc) then you can aim and shoot it just as good, its equivalent. I don't see any reason why you are fine with it letting him nail all 10 bullets into one guy's head as a called shot at 50m, but make that all 10 just into a guy at a few hundred and suddenly you're all over him. It negates the recoil, and if its entirely negated, I'd let it happen.

If there was recoil left over, at ranges beyond medium, I'd probably say that any uncompensated recoil counted against that shot as well as future ones taken.

[Ed_209a]

Chainguns help with this as they shift barrels...

<nitpick>Chainguns don't shift barrels. Rotary cannon and miniguns shift barrels. Big thanks to Wolfenstein 3d and Doom for starting this misinformation...</nitpick>

Total accuracy is a combination of weapon accuracy and shooter accuracy. Bracing is a major part of shooter accuracy, and being bolted onto a 20-ton armored vehicle is about the best bracing there is. A tripod is probably a close second. Unfortunately, tripods are heavy, bulky and take time to set up. This is why snipers usually have to make do with bipods, talent and practice, practice, practice.

Incidentally, the .50 BMG isn't all that accurate, relatively speaking, it just holds on to it's accuracy at long ranges better than many other sniper-practical rounds, because the bullet is so darn heavy. Heavier rounds, like the 25mm autocannon rounds Toturi was talking about are even more so.