Full auto sniping, Whe your players are sniping goons at 500 meters+ with full auto guns Options

[Aaron]

Have you considered taking the fight indoors?

[kzt]

Not quite true. Burst fire is for engaging target/s that are within your cone of fire, which is defined as the probability cone in which a large percentage of rounds are most likely to hit, in the shortest time possible.

I have managed to engage 2-3 man sized targets at a range of 800m with my GPMG. Sure, if you can fire 3 single rounds in quick succession, you can bring down all 3 targets fairly quickly. But if the targets exposure times are only a couple of seconds, your best bet is a burst.

Considering that most people can't SEE a man sized target at 800 meters (excepting Dayglow Green on snow), how was the MG supported and sited? Tripod or ring mounted? Using optics?

[CanRay]

Considering that most people can't SEE a man sized target at 800 meters (excepting Dayglow Green on snow), how was the MG supported and sited? Tripod or ring mounted? Using optics?

Spotter support and call for correction? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[kzt]

I could not feasibly see anything other than .50 or heavier rounds having any reliable accuracy at ranges over 600m.. in anything but perfect conditions..

I've known people who shoot 5.56 to 1000 meters in competition. It's doable, but it's not an M16 and service ammo that they use.

[Shiloh]

I've known people who shoot 5.56 to 1000 meters in competition. It's doable, but it's not an M16 and service ammo that they use.

Aye, there's a reason some ammo is called "Match Grade"... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Seriously, though, SR isn't a sniper simulator. If you want to run by RAW, then that's fine. If you want to drag it down into the mud of realism, find a way of penalising recoil more at longer range.

[Xiaan]

(apologies for jumping in this so late)

truthfully, through game mechanics, it may not benefit a PC sniper to lug around a bolt action rifle or simi-auto sport rifle along with a main arm just to set up a sweet hide in game and pick out the marks. However it all falls back to min-max character building, you might get a higher damage rating and be able to squirt off some more rounds but it's at the cost of realism.
SR doesn't really take into account much that deals with ballistics, which is good because I for one would rather just get on with the game and not have to track a bullet's path and calculate the various properties of different rounds. However it's good to remember that different rounds do different things, like the fact that one big ol' fifty cal round we all like to envision blowing holes through corp security wage-slaves doesn't even need to Hit the target at close ranges to be effective. Depending on the load of that round it could just as easily cause wounds when the round passes withing inches of the target.
but it's these things that make for good story telling and not for great game mechanics, yeah a Troll with a gyro mount and every suppressive add to his Heavy weapon might make it a real possibility for him to pick out point targets at far ranges... but it's still not realistic. So if a game's focus is more on big and heavy hollywood style fights and action, then have the Pig-Totein' Troll rake long bursts through NPCs at extreme range (it is after all exciting and fun to imagine) However if the groups playing style is a little more firmly grounded in reality then just fudge the numbers or add the maximum amount of modifiers to the roll.
It's really not sniping if you're firing in even a rapid fire rate. it's true that it's not all ways one shot one kill... but that's the goal. (along with staying hidden and alive long enough to crawl back home and do it again when the duty calls)

[toturi]

Considering that most people can't SEE a man sized target at 800 meters (excepting Dayglow Green on snow), how was the MG supported and sited? Tripod or ring mounted? Using optics?

Pintle mount. Night optics x8 zoom.

[kzt]

However if the groups playing style is a little more firmly grounded in reality then just fudge the numbers or add the maximum amount of modifiers to the roll.

The devs have lots of weaknesses with firearms. They really don't get that it's a LOT harder to shoot someone with a rifle at 600 meters than is at 100 meters, and that using a telescopic sight just doesn't make the issue go away. You can argue that fancy electronics will take care of this (though exactly how they eliminate the 1.5 second time of flight is kind of unclear to me...) but that also works at close range too.

My current thought is that the easiest way to fix this is to get rid the the silliness with sights eliminating range penalties, and change the attack roll to a threshold test of 1 for short, 2 medium, 3 long, 4 extreme.

It doesn't help the automatic weapon bit much, but SR automatic weapons, recoil and all, are horribly broken anyhow.

[VagabondStar]

Realistically, machine gun beating zones would prevent you to be able to snipe effectively outside of 500 meters with them.


This is not represented in the rules. Therefore, it shouldn't be a problem.

[toturi]

Just to reiterate a point I have made in many other posts:

Shadowrun physics work according to Shadowrun rules. My opinion is that realism in the game is a function of in-game consistency and should not be dependent on suspension of disbelief (or lack thereof).

[Shiloh]

...realism in the game is a function of in-game consistency and should not be dependent on suspension of disbelief (or lack thereof).

That's verisimilitude, rather than realism, and is the best that any RPG can hope for and still be playable.

[BullZeye]

(though exactly how they eliminate the 1.5 second time of flight is kind of unclear to me...)

For that long time of flight, the target has to be really far, considering the bullet travels 600-1000 m/s. When it comes to some slower projectiles, it is a major issue but that's not covered at all in the rules. An arrow has a speed of 100-200 m/s so when firing to 500m, target could have left the building couple of times during that time. I would say the movement modifiers should multiply according to the range. Perhaps multiply the modifier of movement with the penalty from the range? (so extreme range and target running would be 2*4 penalty)

As mentioned before, the bullet's "grade" has a huge effect on the accuracy. Just changing the bullets in use to a different manufacturer's bullets, you have to adjust your scope/sights all over again. Did some shooting few years ago with two different types of ammo, one was military and other was match. Result was pretty much that even on short distance (20ish m) the military ammo (old ones) made about 30cm diameter pattern while the match ones had a nice 5cm in diameter pattern. For full auto shooting, that 30cm diameter might be even better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Fully compensated recoil from a full auto gun can be used at long ranges with devastating effect and accuracy, but I wouldn't call it sniping anymore. Spotting the muzzle flash of a HMG on full auto isn't too hard either. A true sniper would still go for a bolt action rifle for the sake of accuracy, weapon reliability and what's most important: style.

[Juca Bala]

Well, maybe it's more easy to simply say that you can't expend "Aim" actions with burst/auto weapons and, if you're using match grade ammo, you can aim for one extra turn. Maybe that way it is more simple.

[sunnyside]

Something that I''m surprised hasn't been mentioned is that when talking about extreme range sniping you're already into houserule territory. Making a shot that, RAW, you can't, because of the relatively short max ranges. You've got an assault rifle and they're 556 meters away, tough luck.

So once the players are already mewling for house rules I'd feel free to add in all sorts of requirments (or edge) to make it happen.

Also you can't use called shots on full auto from RAW (bursts OK though). See p 149 Since a proper aimed sniper shot is all about the called shot I'd say that solves much of the issue already.

At ranges that are allowable RAW with the full auto weapons that you don't need GM approval for it makes sense that with recoil comp you could keep a burst on target, or at least that it'd help.

[Tarantula]

Something that I''m surprised hasn't been mentioned is that when talking about extreme range sniping you're already into houserule territory. Making a shot that, RAW, you can't, because of the relatively short max ranges. You've got an assault rifle and they're 556 meters away, tough luck.

So once the players are already mewling for house rules I'd feel free to add in all sorts of requirments (or edge) to make it happen.

Also you can't use called shots on full auto from RAW (bursts OK though). See p 149 Since a proper aimed sniper shot is all about the called shot I'd say that solves much of the issue already.

At ranges that are allowable RAW with the full auto weapons that you don't need GM approval for it makes sense that with recoil comp you could keep a burst on target, or at least that it'd help.

Medium/Heavy machine guns have a 1200 meter range for extreme. Assault Cannons have a 1500 meter range.

Also, theres no reason you can't modify your barret to be full auto. The only way called shot *might* be better, is for bypassing armor. Thats an unknown dice penalty you're taking to do it though. (Since +4 dmg obviously is weak compared to the +9 for full auto). Also, the extra 9 damage from full auto equates to 9x3(27) armor to negate or more before it would be better to avoid the armor.

I don't know about you, but my sniper (even the most min-maxed around) can't just eat a -27 penalty and still shoot. So, again, full auto (compensated) wins. By far.

[ccelizic]

There's a problem with sniping in the 6th world if you aren't careful about it. I had someone try it, and she wasn't too good at the not being spotted thing. What she didn't see was the spirits on the astral plane also assigned to the area on defense. She fires several shots at a drone hoping to bump it off from a safe distance. The drones turn around and start firing full auto bursts. The spirits zip over to her rooftop and materialize effectively cutting her escape. She blasts one of the spirits, and it exactly fails to acknowledge that she shot it. She manages to get around one of the spirits and dash downstairs, only to find that the spirits had gone astral and rematerialized on the bottom floor, waiting for her. She was lucky the mage was not on site, or he would have grabbed a pair of binocs and really done it to her. Even now, some of my players tend to operate under the assumption that weapons are absolutely and totally useless agianst spirits even though I've pointed out that APDS rounds and well placed shots can work miracles.

Mages with bound spirits and binoculars are HELLA SCARY at long range warfare.

[Tarantula]

There's a problem with sniping in the 6th world if you aren't careful about it. I had someone try it, and she wasn't too good at the not being spotted thing. What she didn't see was the spirits on the astral plane also assigned to the area on defense. She fires several shots at a drone hoping to bump it off from a safe distance. The drones turn around and start firing full auto bursts. The spirits zip over to her rooftop and materialize effectively cutting her escape. She blasts one of the spirits, and it exactly fails to acknowledge that she shot it. She manages to get around one of the spirits and dash downstairs, only to find that the spirits had gone astral and rematerialized on the bottom floor, waiting for her. She was lucky the mage was not on site, or he would have grabbed a pair of binocs and really done it to her. Even now, some of my players tend to operate under the assumption that weapons are absolutely and totally useless agianst spirits even though I've pointed out that APDS rounds and well placed shots can work miracles.

Mages with bound spirits and binoculars are HELLA SCARY at long range warfare.

I'm just kinda curious how the spirits knew what was going on. Being that she was a fairly safe distance away as you say, and normal modifiers would apply. I'd assume she stealthed, which'd be opposed. Most snipers have at elast halfway decent stealth, and would beat most midlevel or lower spirits.

Those spirits sure have a good grasp of how stairs work for not living in the world we do.

Not to mention, mages make the best snipers... binoculars/telescope + mana/power bolt = dead. And they can take out spirits easy.


Also, shooting the spirit with a sniper rifle should go through unless its a stupidly powerful 5+ force spirit.

[CanRay]

I once had a Adept with a Grenade Launcher (The Glock-Looking one) who used a Mage's Watcher Spirit as a Spotter.

[sunnyside]

Medium/Heavy machine guns have a 1200 meter range for extreme. Assault Cannons have a 1500 meter range.

Assault cannons that are RAW aren't full auto.

MMGs and HMGs have their own restrictions (they still have that a human can't just fire those things freely right? You have to be set up on a bipod right?)

And again I'll point out that when an Apache does some sniping they do it with full auto.

Also, theres no reason you can't modify your barret to be full auto.

It's called the GM. You may have heard of them. Seriously there isn't a penalty associated with riverdancing while shooting (technically isn't running), however I'd say that it decreases your odds.

Actually I'm rather surprised arsenal doesn't restrict mods like that. Cannon companion did.

The only way called shot *might* be better, is for bypassing armor. Thats an unknown dice penalty you're taking to do it though. (Since +4 dmg obviously is weak compared to the +9 for full auto). Also, the extra 9 damage from full auto equates to 9x3(27) armor to negate or more before it would be better to avoid the armor.

Actually called shot is also useful for hitting specific things for cinimatic reasons. But beyond that the +4 damage counts for armor penetration while the full auto bonus does not. So you'll get spirits that are just annoyed and a lot of unconsious people that got hit by a bunch of bullets instead of people dead from headshots.


Sort of on that not have you ever gotten to fire something with compensated/low recoil on full auto? Oh hey. If you go to a fair sometimes they have those full auto bbguns.

Maybe next time instead of trying for the prize try firing a single shot. See if you hit the star. Maybe you will, maybe you wont. Now try and fire a ten round burst. I bet you get a couple on the star.

Hmm lemmi think about that. As I recall the target is about an inch tall. And you'd be set up maybe 5 meters away. So that'd be like hitting a person over ironsights at 360 meters.

So maybe for the MMG over ironsights experience just try and target the top point of the star which should be about 1/4 inch high. I bet you'll have a hard time in single shots but you'd still connect with a couple in a ten round burst.

[Tarantula]

Assault cannons that are RAW aren't full auto.

Yes they are, modified via the arsenal rules. At least you certainly could the ares vigorous.

MMGs and HMGs have their own restrictions (they still have that a human can't just fire those things freely right? You have to be set up on a bipod right?)

And again I'll point out that when an Apache does some sniping they do it with full auto.

Only as an optional rule in arsenal. Says you need either gyrostab unit, or minimum 8 body and 8 strength to use ti without one. Using those rules also cause you to take resist stun equal to half power (round down) of the shot, and may be knocked down.

It's called the GM. You may have heard of them. Seriously there isn't a penalty associated with riverdancing while shooting (technically isn't running), however I'd say that it decreases your odds.

Actually I'm rather surprised arsenal doesn't restrict mods like that. Cannon companion did.

Seriously, they have machineguns that shoot the same round. There's no reason you couldn't modify the semi-auto to full auto fairly simply.

Actually called shot is also useful for hitting specific things for cinimatic reasons. But beyond that the +4 damage counts for armor penetration while the full auto bonus does not. So you'll get spirits that are just annoyed and a lot of unconsious people that got hit by a bunch of bullets instead of people dead from headshots.

Sure, and if the gunner really really needs to, he can always just fire a short burst or single shot if he needs to hit something for cinimatic reasons.

Sort of on that not have you ever gotten to fire something with compensated/low recoil on full auto? Oh hey. If you go to a fair sometimes they have those full auto bbguns.

Maybe next time instead of trying for the prize try firing a single shot. See if you hit the star. Maybe you will, maybe you wont. Now try and fire a ten round burst. I bet you get a couple on the star.

Hmm lemmi think about that. As I recall the target is about an inch tall. And you'd be set up maybe 5 meters away. So that'd be like hitting a person over ironsights at 360 meters.

That isn't compensated recoil. Just low, probably I'd say half normal. I've shot those, and no, it isn't hard to shoot the same spot repeatedly (the hard part is that the stupid star bounces around and flexes if you just shoot at it full auto non-stop).

So maybe for the MMG over ironsights experience just try and target the top point of the star which should be about 1/4 inch high. I bet you'll have a hard time in single shots but you'd still connect with a couple in a ten round burst.

Why ironsights? We're not talking about shooting hundreds of meters with ironsights in this thread.

[sunnyside]

Why ironsights? We're not talking about shooting hundreds of meters with ironsights in this thread.

Because they won't let you put a scope on the bb gun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Also I guess since you'd probably manage it on full out.

(As an aside, the way to win at that game isn't to aim at the star. Even if you thing you've won bits will have bent back and if there is so much of a nanometer of red left you won't get a prize. Instead shoot out a circle a little larger than the star. )

And again the reason I'm using it as an example is that it's got the low sort of recoil that full recoil compensation implies.

As for the Arsenal mods again those are all subject to GM approval yes? (And again I don't get why the old cannon companion type restrictions aren't there. A full auto sniper rifle is a MMG/HMG/Autocannon depending on the round you start with)

[Tarantula]

I'd say full recoil comp is just that, full. Those guns still kick some, and thusly, aren't fully compensated.

[BullZeye]

Well, SR doesn't take in account at all the caliber of the fired full-auto weapon which makes a LMG and HMG kick the same amount even tho the difference is quite big. Even fully compensated recoil still kicks a .50cal HMG around enough to not put all those bullets into the same hole. What I found odd on the rules was that those chain guns in the game are kid's toys compared to what's out there for sale at this very moment. The highest rate of fire on those in game is 15 bullets per action phase=60 bullets per 3 seconds, which is low compared to the real deal's 50 shots per second. Anyway, that 15 bullets gives -14 for the throw which is totally unjustified as the rotary barrel does eat up some of the recoil away.

I would also go for the one big bullet to the right place instead of 10 bullets in the general direction of the target. As said before, that +9 from full auto doesn't add up to armor bypass vs. that +4 from called shot so that +4 is much more likely to inflict a killing blow or at least serious injury. While that 50 bullets per second would most likely pulverize any target with just about any type of man-made armor (or tickle a big spirit).

[Tarantula]

Actually, heavy weapons suffer double recoil penalties if it isn't compensated, so yes, they do take that into account.

Fully compensated = does not kick it around. That simple.

And I'd rather go for 10 bullets to the right place, instead of one.

+9 from full auto > +4 from called shot. Period. Always and forever. The only time it even matters is when you're dealing with hardened armor, in which case the guy with the full auto can drop to burst or singleshot and make a called shot with it, losing nothing for being able to burst long distances.

[psychophipps]

Actually, heavy weapons suffer double recoil penalties if it isn't compensated, so yes, they do take that into account.

Fully compensated = does not kick it around. That simple.

And I'd rather go for 10 bullets to the right place, instead of one.

+9 from full auto > +4 from called shot. Period. Always and forever. The only time it even matters is when you're dealing with hardened armor, in which case the guy with the full auto can drop to burst or singleshot and make a called shot with it, losing nothing for being able to burst long distances.

Umm...don't you mean -4 for a called shot?

I have to agree with the 10 bullets theory. It's great that RAW in this case doesn't match reality because it would otherwise mean 1-3 potential hits and 9-7 shots at low flying aircraft. Also, reality doesn't magically give the bullets extra uberness just because more than one hits the target.