Full auto sniping, Whe your players are sniping goons at 500 meters+ with full auto guns Options

[Tarantula]

No, i mean that +9 to damage is better than +4 to damage.

[BullZeye]

Actually, heavy weapons suffer double recoil penalties if it isn't compensated, so yes, they do take that into account.

Yes, it makes a difference in the game do you shoot with an uzi or a MG, but as I said, it makes no difference on LMG or HMG. For example LMG in these days fires 5.56 round, a medium would fire 7.62 and a HMG .50 to simplify things. Those 3 different rounds pack quite a different punch and quite a different recoil. Even fully compensated recoil still makes the bullets go through different holes. Uncompensated 5.56 MG will kick lot less than a .50cal.

I thought a FA weapon can't fire a short burst, so you can't go sniping with a HMG and use called shots or was that just a minigun-rule.. hm...

For an unarmored target or a target with a light armor that +9 damage is better, but against anything harder, that +4 deals more damage in most cases. A guy inside the armor might drop on either shot, but anything tougher, it just causes lots of sparks flying around. If I remember right, vehicles fall into that hardened armor category?

[kzt]

If I remember right, vehicles fall into that hardened armor category?

In the BBB they don't say that, not sure about arsenal. It makes sense, but using logic with SR firearms rules will get you in trouble every time.

[Tarantula]

Vehicles do and don't.

Vehicles do not have a stun track, and do not take stun damage.

Vehicle armor still reduces damage to stun damage if it exceeds the power of the attack.

Thusly, vehicles function similar too hardened armor (ignoring stuff with damage under their armor rating).

I just noticed something... only short bursts state that the +2 DV bonus does not count when comparing to armor. This means that long and full bursts DO count before being compared to armor (though, I could simply be missing errata or somesuch, though I don't see it anywhere, but I doubt thats how it works).

Anyway, I'd argue called shot for damage doesn't count before armor either. Reasoning is from pages 139-140. Step 1, declare attack
Step 2, modifiers
Step 3, Opposed test
Step 4, Compare Armor (the good part) - "Add the net hits scored to the base Damage Value of the attack; this is the modified Damage Value.
Determine the type of armor used to defend against the specific attack (See Armorp. 148), and aply the attack's Armor Penetration modifier (see p. 152); this is the modified Armor Value
If the attack causes Physical damage, compare the modified Damage Value to the modified Armor Value. If the DV does not exceed the Armor, then the attack inflicts Stun rather than Physical Damage."

I.E. Bonus damage gets thrown on after seeing if it does stun or not, that includes called shot for +1-+4 damage.

[BullZeye]

Anyway, I'd argue called shot for damage doesn't count before armor either.

Hm, that would make sense as one would usually try to protect the critical parts of a body with some kind of armor and possibly even pack bit extra to those critical places. One would have to combine the bypass armor shot AND the called shot for extra damage for a serious negative modifier to hit such a place.

For vehicles, the bullet either penetrates the armor or doesn't do any damage IMO. Of course in case of automatic weapons with AP rounds, one should be able to grind through the armor with some effort as long as the bullet doesn't have to pierce twice the armor or something like that. So a tank can't be destroyed with an assault rifle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Shiloh]

Actually, heavy weapons suffer double recoil penalties if it isn't compensated, so yes, they do take that into account.

Bullz was talking about the difference between an LMG (heavy weapon, x2 uncompensated recoil) and an HMG (ditto). IRL, there is a huge difference between a SAW like the Minimi, which can* be fired full auto by an unaugmented human holding it in their hands with no mechanical support, and a .50 cal browning, which *cannot*. This is the thing the RAW doesn't take into account.

[Tarantula]

Shadowrun includes the Rambo effect? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)

[BullZeye]

Shadowrun's recoil rules are unfortunate made so that they are according to weapon's fire mode, not caliber. A .50 AE (Desert Eagle, muzzle energy 1923 J) vs. 9x19 ("normal" 9mm, muzzle energy 598 J) have quite a different recoil, but still the difference isn't as big on 5.56 (1798 J) vs. .50 BMG (13460-18218 J). SAW's can easily be fired by a "normal" person while a M2 Browning needs to be bolted to something lot more heavy. Even on a tripod that M2 still kicks like a horse and thus full auto fire might not be advisable anyway where SAW can easily be handled on a bipod. Both weapons on full auto still make quite a spread even when fired on a fixed position by a person, while a heavy enough robot might be able to cope that full recoil and then only the difference of the bullets, wind and such would matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry about the energy values, but those I took in account to compare a bit on how much more punch a .50 BMG packs vs. 9mm. In case someone is interested, a .22LR has energy of 68 J (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[HeavyMetalYeti]

A RL M60 7.62 (medium MG in SR) can be fired from the hip "Rambo style" and doesn't climb with the recoil like a lighter LMG. The weight of the weapon IS the recoil comp on it. I didn't say it was accuate fired that way but it could be fired that way.

[toturi]

I'm just kinda curious how the spirits knew what was going on. Being that she was a fairly safe distance away as you say, and normal modifiers would apply. I'd assume she stealthed, which'd be opposed. Most snipers have at elast halfway decent stealth, and would beat most midlevel or lower spirits.

True. I am curious if it is just a case of GM fiat or whether the GM simply forgot that his NPCs needed to roll as well. Even if the spirits were using Assensing to spot the sniper, it shouldn't be so easy, precisely because it will be opposed by the appropriate Stealth skill.

[evilgenius]

I'm a little late to the party, but honestly full auto fire is VERY effective at long ranges. Even more so, for increasing your hit probability anyways.

Check out the following (in particular paragraph 5-4):

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...3-22-68/c05.htm

Essentially, the "beaten zone" of a machinegun saturates an area with bullets, usually ovoid in shape and parallel with the direction of fire. This ovoid gets longer and slightly wider as the range increases, and there's an increase in the natural variance of the bullets paths due to recoil, atmospheric conditions, user fallibility and even the level of precision in the machining of the gun's parts.

To illustrate this point, the Canadian Army had an 7.62mm GPMG called the C6. It was such a solid construction, that when mounted in a tripod, the beaten zone was too small, so the tripod was adjusted to allow a little bit of lateral play... It was loosened so to speak.

Unfortunately for game balance, long range fire automatic fire is quite effective, and in fact the preferred method of employing machineguns. In fact, Canadian company level infantry doctrine (which I imagine is similar to other countries') uses riflemen for close in protection of the GPMGs and LMGs in defensive positions... Until you get to something called "FPF" (final protective fire, which is essentially saturating the space a few meters in front of a friendly trench to either the left or right of your position to prevent a grenadier's assault), MGs are almost universally employed at ranges beyond 400m.

Now, how game play deals with guys firing assault rifles from the hip at 600+m, that's another story!

Personally, our games haven't found this to be a problem yet. I would just rule that there's no "full auto to increase damage" at longer ranges, only for covering an area with bullets. If you want to give your players a dilemma, have whatever the runners want be on the guy they need to geek, and then when mr "MG Sniper" goes to grab the loot, the comlink has a bullet through it and the data is useless. So sorry chummer, you should have used a precision tool for a precision job, not a friggin assault rifle on full auto. Good luck getting paid now, fool.

My $0.02

[BullZeye]

(the whole post)

Indeed. Machine guns aren't really close quarters weapons, unlike assault rifles and submachine guns. Really gotta think how to make it bit more realistic for my games (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Last time one of the team members got knocked out unconscious by a burst from assault rifle to face. On the old cyberpunk 2020, the rule for automatic weapons was that for every point you had more than the target number, 1 bullet hit. For every 10 rounds fired on short distances you got +1 and for every 10 bullets shot on long distances you got -1. Every bullet was rolled separately and the amount of bullets per round was determined by the weapon. That made of course lots more rolling but also made things bit more realistic. SR's style is lot faster but far less realistic but I guess for most parts it works, except on machine guns if they are used how people use machine guns today. For Rambos, the rules are ok (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I guess just about everyone has seen the movie, Commando, by big Arnold himself? There's that one scene where he shoots with assault rifle form the bush towards the house and the bad guys fall all around the yard regardless where he's aiming (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Must be totally uncompensated recoil and he just gets lots of lucky hits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[O'Donnell Heir]

sorry for dipping back into the front page for the quote:

It's an interesting point. Long range sniping (IRL) is even affected adversely (some say) by the reciprocation of a semi-auto action, so the best sniper rifles are manual bolt-actions. Considering you can get an Ares Alpha cpmpensated enough to fire 6-shot bursts with no modifiers, either that's not a consideration any more, or there's room for a houserule making the effect of recoil greater at long range. You could consider making recoil modifiers multiplied by a factor depending on the range, so that compensation might mean a 3-round burst at medium isn't much incovenience, but at long range it's just not sensible.

Not so true, as the Barret M82 (essentially the poster boy weapon for this discussion) can do so with excellent accuracy, there are also several .50 cal sniper variant rifles in the works that can readily fire a burst fire mode with good accuracy.

Fully automatic fire is fine in combat, I just wish more GMs would realize that when someone's firing at you on full auto, you run for cover, not keep walking. Burst fire is meant to keep the enemy's heads down and provide covering fire, because people tend to do just what I said above when faced with it, however, it doesn't translate well into games where you can conceivably take several to the chest and keep walking.

[Xiaan]

It's worth saying that although riflemen and automatic riflemen (i.e. that poor bastard holding the Squad Automatic) in an infantry platoon are trained at engaging targets at 300 meters and under standard conditions and your medium to heavy weapons are primarily deployed in support by fire positions it's not that the heavy automatics are intended for sniping. You're support by fire element is just that, support. The heavy weapons utilized to pin down an enemy allowing a manuvering element to advance and overcome the objective with weapons that require lighter load-outs. There's a reason why sniper sections rarely are seen in country toting a fifty around. One a weapon of that size isn't easily hidden or moved with ease, secondly it makes to damn much noise. Small kill teams (SKTs) are devised to take out distanced targets with lighter rounds. Just try caring that big ass gun though a hostile area along with a personal defence weapon such as an M4 with enough ammunition and other provisions to support yourself for a sniping mission. traditionally you're not just setting up a site for the afternoon, you dig in and move only when your hides been blown. And when you do need to move you don't want the weight of a fifty caliber weapon slowing you down. Beyond even high end sniper platforms a Heavy Machine Gun should be considered crew served and to be deployed with any long lasting success you'd need your ammo bearer, and assistant gunner on site to help you set up and break down that some of a fragger. Even the combat load-out of a M240B, with tri-pod and t&e is more than most can deal with for more than a few blocks of slow running unassisted.

[BullZeye]

Not so true, as the Barret M82 (essentially the poster boy weapon for this discussion) can do so with excellent accuracy, there are also several .50 cal sniper variant rifles in the works that can readily fire a burst fire mode with good accuracy.

.50 BMG was never designed to be a sniper round in the first place. The reason why it's so accurate is mostly because the trajectory of a .50cal round is not much bothered by wind, gravity or someone's head hindering it's flight. When it comes to really shooting that 10cent coin from 1km away, I'd go for .338 Lapua. .50cal is more for the anti material round but for that, I'd rather then take 14,5mm M41/44 which packs twice the punch of a .50cal.

Xiaan made good points in his post also when it comes to the weight of a weapon. That was the reason why I thought that sneaker character on that other thread packing a HMG a not-so-good idea for the sheer weight of the gun. If you have to walk for kilometers and then hide somewhere to shoot one shot, I wouldn't want to carry 30kg or more worth of one gun. Then again if I was a troll and would have to jump out of a car, climb to a nearby roof to make one shot, why not?