[4e] Magic Questions Options

[tete]

Why do summoning Hermetics use Logic but then for the number of Spirits they can have is Charisma while Shamans have Charisma for both?
Why do you loose a point of magic rating when you take cyberware on top of having a lowered max magic rating? (seams like a triple whammy to me)


Thanks

[Jhaiisiin]

The different drain stats are based on how the magician in question understands their magic. It's a fluff thing, basically. A hermetic thinks his way into magic, through formulas and such. A shaman is more asking the magic to come to his aid, hence the charisma.

Spirits are *always* pulled in through a request, because you're trying to convince an entity to work for you. Hence Charisma there.


As for the magic situation, I'm guessing it was done that way for balance reasons. Yes, it's a big hit, but it keeps you working to maintain a character's tenuous link to the mystical world. You could always houserule away the automatic loss of the magic point, and just lower the maximum by 1. If the max pushes it under the current rating though, you'd have to lose the point regardless.

[darthmord]

Why do summoning Hermetics use Logic but then for the number of Spirits they can have is Charisma while Shamans have Charisma for both?

Dunno.

Why do you loose a point of magic rating when you take cyberware on top of having a lowered max magic rating? (seams like a triple whammy to me)

Because... Cyberware lowers Essence. Every partial or full point of Essence lost due to injury, disease, or implants causes an equal loss of Magic.

Such that if you installed 0.5 Essence of 'ware and were reduced to 5.5 Essence, you would now have a -1 applied to whatever your Magic Rating was. If it were a 5, you'd now have a 4.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Why do summoning Hermetics use Logic but then for the number of Spirits they can have is Charisma while Shamans have Charisma for both?

Because Hermetics always spend more than shamans.

For example: in SR3 and earlier, a shaman needed a lodge worth a few thousand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (which could be upgraded incrementally) to fill all magic location requirements and functioned as a permanent ward of the lodge's rating, while a Hermetic needed to replace his several libraries at a cost of tens of thousands of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) each time he increased his magic rating (no upgrades allowed) and his summoning circle only functioned as a ward while it was being used.

Frankly, Hermetics are getting screwed so much less by merely needing a third stat, that I've heard people complaining that they're too powerful relative to shamans now.

[tete]

I've heard people complaining that they're too powerful relative to shamans now.

How so? link? What can Hermetics do that Shamans can't? Other than that for Shamans the spirit goes away at sunrise/sunset unless its bound.

[Ryu]

What is so bad about Logic as a drain stat? It is my preferred option, so I´m glad if it comes with my choosen tradition (astral agility and cerebral boosters come to mind). There are many more traditions in Street Magic, choose your poison.

[HappyDaze]

Other than that for Shamans the spirit goes away at sunrise/sunset unless its bound.

This is a feature of summoning and is, AFAIK, the same across all traditions.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

How so? link? What can Hermetics do that Shamans can't? Other than that for Shamans the spirit goes away at sunrise/sunset unless its bound.

Mostly from a couple people I (now-rarely) play with (because 4e is sooooo broken.) I don't recall seeing that particular complaint posted here. (And in 4th, unbound Hermetic spirits go away just like shamanic ones do.)

The guy I recall compaining the most about it was also the guy who most abused earlier version "domain-shifting" with his shaman*. He also spent at least 10 minutes complaining if the decker had any play-time whatsoever. Bit of a drama-queen, really.


*Example: when a combat happened on a road right between a lake and some woods halfway up a mountain, he ended up summoning a water spirit, a spirit of man, a forest spirit, a mountain spirit and a sky spirit all for the same combat - each was given the order to kill his enemies, then he'd abandon any additional services he had by "switching domains" and summoning the next spirit.

[Glyph]

All magical traditions use Willpower and one other mental Attribute for Drain.

Charisma's advantages are that it determines how many bound spirits you can have, and helps you resist the negative mental qualities of some mentor spirits (which is usually, if not always, a Willpower plus Charisma test). Non-magically, it is also used for social skills.

Logic's advantage is that it is the linked Attribute for arcana tests (an optional rule is to use the tradition's Drain Attribute instead of Logic if the two are different, but I favor keeping it Logic, since hermetics should get some kind of advantage). Non-magically, it is also used for technical and knowledge skills.

Intuition's advantages are that it is used for astral perception, and location and gathering tests when you get your own enchanting materials. Non-magically, it is also used for perception tests and part of determining initiative.


The Magic loss rules are partly there because of how essence works in the Shadowrun world (cyberware disrupts the wholeness of the aura), and partly for game balance - a character combining magic and cyberware would overshadow any other type of character if they could do it without penalty. Even with the penalty, it is still often worth it for a mage to take 1 Essense point's worth of 'ware (such as a cerebral booster and cybereyes), and for an adept to take 1 or 2 Essense points worth of 'ware (such as muscle toner or synthcardium).


Hermetic mages may get stuck with the (usually) least useful Attribute for their Drain Attribute, but their advantage is that they aren't stuck with any code or credo or dogma attached to their magic. They can treat spirits as lackeys, instead of appeasing and cajoling them like most other traditions do. They don't answer to any totems or follow any rules (although they can have mentor spirits if they choose). Basically, they don't have to deal with the hassles that a lot of other traditions are stuck with.

[Dyspeptic]

Logic's advantage is that it is the linked Attribute for arcana tests (an optional rule is to use the tradition's Drain Attribute instead of Logic if the two are different, but I favor keeping it Logic, since hermetics should get some kind of advantage). Non-magically, it is also used for technical and knowledge skills.

Logic also limits the number of foci you may have active at any given time.

[Ryu]

Logic is also used for many knowledge skills and technical skills; those who play the matrix with attribute+skill may find that chaos mages are really, really nice.

[hobgoblin]

Logic is also used for many knowledge skills and technical skills; those who play the matrix with attribute+skill may find that chaos mages are really, really nice.

kinda like how bruce lee's style was nice because he robbed every other for what worked? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ryu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Yes. Bottom line: it does work.

[hobgoblin]

so does a kick to the groin and fingers in the eyes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

not sure if thats the best way to get a being of pure mana to behave tho...

[tete]

Logic also limits the number of foci you may have active at any given time.

Ahhh and there is the balance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) thanks!