"New Edition" gaming culture, what do you think of it? Options

[Cantankerous]

@nezumi
I think you are targeting the wrong aspects of SR to draw class examples. As Dr. Funk wrote, and I agree with, the four classes are: Augmented (the default class), Magician, Adept, and Technomancer. Now each of those classes can rig, deck or shoot a gun...point is, I think you are misunderstanding the class "discussion".

@Cantankerous
I'd certainly agree that DnD4 is more supernatural or above the top than prior editions. You really don't have the option of playing a "normal guy" that just has the attitude of hero...at least without a lot of cutting from the core rules. I mean, you could play a fighter with nothing but basic attacks. You could take all the healing surges and translate those into total hit points and just track that number and not ever surge during the day...but I see your point. I don't feel that that ruins all games, but it is certainly restricting what you seem to want out of the game, from a character standpoint.

In the games I have played so far with my group, we've had to already resurrect one player, I've been knocked unconscious twice (with one surge taking place in combat), our fighter has been knocked unconscious once and been very close to death at least 3 times and our mage has been low at least 3 times in separate combat. As the warlord of the group, I can only surge people twice per encounter...after that, its up to them using an action point to second wind or forgoing an attack for a second wind. I'd say that (and it may just be our DM) DnD4 is more deadly than any other edition we've played. We are always going negative or dying...its just that it is a lot easier to get back to health.

Now, as you put it, this is a bad thing. The mechanics don't let you be heroes. But, on the flip side, the mechanics let our group move on to the next fight...without having to travel into town for healing, without having to rest 6-8 hours for our cleric to re-mem his spells, heal and then rest another 6-8 so we can move on at full power. I don't know, I just kinda feel like we get more "meat and potatoes" done in 4th. We get more combat, more treasure and more time to roleplay for personal reasons...as opposed to roleplay because we need to be healed or need more rest.

I actually feel more heroic with our 4th edition group than past groups. We can take on a lot more in a day and we don't need to rest nearly as much. If our surges are drained and our daily powers are gone...yeah, we'd rather rest 6-8 hours to get back to full strength before going into the final room of the dungeon. But, that doesn't seem to ruin everyone's fun and none of us have gotten hung up on the fact that no, "normal human" can do this stuff. I guess I've really never even attempted to correlate real human to any game I have played...so this has never been a flaw to any game system I have played.

Ohh, sure. All of this comes down to tastes. Mine simply run differently. Hell, I realize what a dinosaur I am. But being super heroish just does not, in any manner seem heroic to me. Personally I'm not even fond of playing Mages. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) If I can't feel a connection to the character, whether it be in a movie or a book or a game, I loose interest fast...really FAST! I'm the kind who Plays Oblivion with the difficulty slider set to 100, all the realism mods I can load on thrown in, all the mods that nerf the uber powers engaged and when the character dies, eh's dead. Level one in the first real fight or level 25 in the final fight, if he dies, game over, start again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Isshia

[deek]

hmmmm... If i squint at this it looks like it says Magician, adept, and technomancer (which is crap 4th stuff) are seperate. but if i remember right adepts and technomancers are magicians??? how weird. Cause as i understood it Adepts are a magician who channels their powers inward.. where as technomancer( the lame version of otaku) is a magician that can manipulate and connect with the matrix much like a normal magician would connect to the astral plane.. So more like sub-classes and a whole separate class. Plus calling a class augmented would suggest that that you had to at character creation take some form of cyberware.. which you don't... But hey some people like playing cyberpunk 2020 from what i hear.

True, true...honestly, you don't "have" to follow any real class rules during chargen. That's a plus, as you can create ANYTHING, but it also is a hindrance, cause you could end up with a very poor, playable character. I think ideally, classes are there in SR, its just they are strong recommendations, not firm rules that force you down any of those paths.

I think the thing is, that the rules themselves, have no classes. But, in actual game play, classes do exist...we just don't call them classes and aren't forced down a path. But going down the path, at least for your first couple hundred karma, is a pretty good idea.

@Cantankerous
Hehe...yeah, you are a dinosaur! I understand what you are saying and it intrigues me...it would just take me a while to get use to that type of playstyle. I commend you and definitely can see how each character you create is a major hero...especially if he survives for a while.

[shadowfire]

Realistically, you should change your play style if you tend to kill or nearly kill your character every combat session or so. Cause this means that you are doing something fundamental wrong; probably tactics wise.

[Cantankerous]

Realistically, you should change your play style if you tend to kill or nearly kill your character every combat session or so. Cause this means that you are doing something fundamental wrong; probably tactics wise.

There's the truth of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Honestly, when I played Oblivion, as outlined above, my first two characters died at low levels, including one who was barely out of the sewers and ventured across to the ruins of, I don't remember what, but directly across from the sewer exits, and ran in to four bandits plus the pair of guards that were supposed to be there and after running away from that crowd, he ran almost face first in to the trio of orcs guarding the entrance to the ruins of the Fort directly to the south Syonara baby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But the third guy, built for stealth and SPEED managed to finish the main scenario and become Head of the Thieves Guild (which was worse than the main quest for pity sake) along the way. In no small part on his ability to run away when the situation warranted it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Especially in Shadowrun though you can easily survive on tactics and preparation and, in short, being a smart runner, without magic, without even cyberware. One of those rare and precious occasions where I got to play for an extended period of time I played what was basically a jack of all trades type with very little cyberware, no magic and tons of skill spread out over a bit of everything and just plain tactical know how. That was the most fun I've ever had with a SR character.


Isshia

[nezumi]

I don't know what this 'technomancer' thing is. I suppose you could define the classes as 'adept', 'mage/shaman/whatever' and 'everything else under the sun', with the understanding that you can, and most likely will, multi-class between the three with few real limitations. And of course, someone in the mage/shaman/whatever class and the adept class can change to the 'everything else' class pretty easily.

May as well describe Shadowrun as a class system between 'drop bear' and 'prey'. At least then it's clear when someone is one or the other.

[shadowfire]

The age old adage works well in gaming: Never eat anything bigger than your head.

Now if you don't think its your playing style, then you should roast some coals under your GM cause he is plain out to get you.

[Wounded Ronin]

The age old adage works well in gaming: Never eat anything bigger than your head.

What about a big ceasar salad?

[shadowfire]

thats more a grouping of small items and safe to eat.. unless you fear the color green. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Catsnightmare]

But i have to say that i have noticed that every time there is a new edition to a game it seems like they are trying to make so that the players have to put less thought to the game. Is not thinking part of role playing? I always enjoyed role playing more when i had to stretched my brain a bit further than normal. which is one of the reasons shadowrun is one of my favorite games. i think this would be my main problem with new editions.

I could not agree with you more on this.

[Wesley Street]

Is "crunching more numbers" the same as "thinking more"? The role-playing bit of RPGs is always there. It just depends on how much the group wants to engage in it.

[shadowfire]

you can still have more content to the game system without it becoming a "numbers crunching" beast. in my own system i have many rules that should cover just about anything the characters can pull out of their hoop, but they don't cause the game to become overbearing or unbalanced. why? because they are based of the same basic rules and only the Gm need to worry about them.

[Wesley Street]

I'd rather have a basic set of rules that address common situations than a phone book that covers every eventuality. A GM should be able to deal with PC actions using the spirit of the rules rather than memorizing a law book. Plus there are always optional rules introduced in expansion productions.

[Icepick]

I'm still trying to get the boss to let me invest in the 4E.

"You got a pile of books in the garage you never use."

"Hon, those are all outdated second edition."

"Well you never use them. What makes you think that you will use the new ones."

"...."

Use the old ones. I still draw quite a bit of material from some of my first and second edition books. In particular I use the availability and price mod charts, as well as the crime punishment charts quite often. Plus the history sections don't change too much with newer editions.