IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> A Rant, A permanent home for a pet peeve
HappyDaze
post Aug 17 2008, 04:56 AM
Post #26


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,831
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
And those who clearly go beyond reasonable language use and rational intent don't initiate anything constructive. Imagine you had a child who dropped a hammer on your favourite toe. If you say "Fuck you you little shit! You're a moron! That fucking hurt and I hate you", it certainly gets the message across not to drop any hammers on daddy's toes. However, you also teach it resentment and fear.

If only the writers responded so well when our criticism ('hammers') fall upon their work ('toes'). They've certainly brought the resentment out in some...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightmareX
post Aug 17 2008, 05:11 AM
Post #27


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 826
Joined: 5-September 05
From: LAX, UCAS
Member No.: 7,687



First of all, I must say - what part of the simple request "please don't respond cause this is just for my sig" is not clear? That's why I PMed and asked Bull to lock this ASAP but in retrospect bad timing on my part I guess.

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Aug 16 2008, 07:20 PM) *
Waa waa waa waa, you can criticize the whole forum but then ask people not to respond in kind. And at the same time you criticize critics in general, even though you're being a critic now.


Did I ever say anywhere in here that I'm free of guilt here? No. I've been disrespectfully critical in the past and I regret it. The reason disrespectful criticism has become such a pet peeve is simply because A) there is so much of it, and B) I've realized that I cannot do the job the writers/devs do because I can never seem to get anything done (call it lack of discipline).

As to my request not to respond, that has to do with the simple fact that this would be in my sig but it's too damn big. That's the only reason I made it into a thread. Thanks for understanding that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

QUOTE
Also, I'd argue that some people have written enough free and excellent SR material on this forum, or on the internet, that your logic that their opinions don't count on the basis of non-production is completely defeated. For example, have you seen Raygun's amazing Shadowrun gun house rules? He basically explains why the generic SR gun rules are flawed, explains about the history of various firearms, silencer technology, and so forth, and gives a whole bunch of rules to make the weapons more analgous to reality. So you're factually wrong if you are trying to establish that critics never produce work superior or at least comparable to what is in the "default" SR sourcebooks. And this example is not even speaking of the heaps and heaps of SR fiction that has been posted on this forum by various posters.


I've seen virtually all save the newest SR sites over the years, and love most of them. These people - as I implied - can be as critical as they want though I would hope that they too are respectful about it. By critics I implicitly meant "critics who produce nothing but criticism". Y'know, like me.

QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 16 2008, 03:46 PM) *
Some of the critics do need to be more civil, I agree, but they're not always the only ones being rude in these debates.


QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Aug 16 2008, 11:19 PM) *
I don't think the criticism is the problem per se, it's the vitriolic "serious business" rage that it is conveyed with by many posters.

And those who clearly go beyond reasonable language use and rational intent don't initiate anything constructive. Imagine you had a child who dropped a hammer on your favourite toe. If you say "Fuck you you little shit! You're a moron! That fucking hurt and I hate you", it certainly gets the message across not to drop any hammers on daddy's toes. However, you also teach it resentment and fear.

To finish this hyperbole, if you're going to criticize, make it constructive, because you're not doing yourself, the devs, the writers or the game any form of service by telling the devs that their rules make you want to vomit all over yourself.


Thank you both of you though - you two actually got my point exactly.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
WearzManySkins
post Aug 17 2008, 05:15 AM
Post #28


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,159
Joined: 12-April 07
From: Ork Underground
Member No.: 11,440



QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 16 2008, 03:32 AM) *
This is too big to fit in my sig, so I have to give it its own home.

[rant]Admittedly I haven't frequented other RPG forums much, but this is the only forum, the only game, I've seen where people come out of the woodwork of piss and moan about EVERY SINGLE BOOK that comes out to the people that did the work to write, develop, and produce said books. I'd said this before, it ain't new. And it's directed to everyone that sits here on DS and complains about minute flaws, or whines because they think something should be different, or tells a writer that a concept - a piece of fiction - they wrote is wrong. Take a moment to consider the simple fact that they did the work to bring this game to the market, not you. If you have issues with their work, I suggest that instead of trying to tear them down for not reading your mind as to how "it" should be done go out and write something yourself. It's easy to be a damned critic, but that doesn't mean that all the noise of all the critics in the world amounts to more than a single pile of crap. Ask questions, get clarification, give feedback, hell that's all good. But don't sit there and tell the writers and developers they did it "wrong" - for EVERY SINGLE BOOK that comes out - when you haven't done even a fraction of that work yourself.[/rant]

(Please do not respond to this thread. I don't want a huge debate. It's only here so I can link to it in my sig.)

*WearzManySkins Moe Slaps NightmareX, followed up with a Moe Eye Poke*

WMS
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Aug 17 2008, 05:27 AM
Post #29


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,618
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 17 2008, 01:11 AM) *
First of all, I must say - what part of the simple request "please don't respond cause this is just for my sig" is not clear?



Obviously the "don't" part.

Seriously though did you even really mean it? I mean if that's what you wanted why didn't you drop this thread in the Dumpshock News, Bug Reports, Feature Requests, & Discussion board instead of the 500 posts a minute or whatever main board? Besides not being swarmed it actually kinda fits there as it's sort of like a Feature Request (locked threads for sigging).



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightmareX
post Aug 17 2008, 05:34 AM
Post #30


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 826
Joined: 5-September 05
From: LAX, UCAS
Member No.: 7,687



QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Aug 17 2008, 12:15 AM) *
*WearzManySkins Moe Slaps NightmareX, followed up with a Moe Eye Poke*


LOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 17 2008, 12:27 AM) *
I mean if that's what you wanted why didn't you drop this thread in the Dumpshock News, Bug Reports, Feature Requests, & Discussion board instead of the 500 posts a minute or whatever main board? Besides not being swarmed it actually kinda fits there as it's sort of like a Feature Request (locked threads for sigging).


Cause I'm dumb. Seriously, I didn't even think to put it anywhere else, it never occurred to me. And yes I did really mean the request. This wasn't my intention at all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Aug 17 2008, 05:38 AM
Post #31


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,831
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



So not only do you not want people commenting on the shortfalls of the game, but you say so and then say you don't want any comments on that either. Sorry, this is a forum and that means everyone can post-and-play so long as they follow the rules. If you post it, we will comment - like it or not.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightmareX
post Aug 17 2008, 05:46 AM
Post #32


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 826
Joined: 5-September 05
From: LAX, UCAS
Member No.: 7,687



QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 17 2008, 12:38 AM) *
So not only do you not want people commenting on the shortfalls of the game, but you say so and then say you don't want any comments on that either. Sorry, this is a forum and that means everyone can post-and-play so long as they follow the rules. If you post it, we will comment - like it or not.


I never said you (collectively) can't comment on the shortfalls of the game - and yes I agree there are a number. I said basically "don't do it in a disrespectful manner".

Further, if you had a sig, would you want someone making a huge thread out of debating every letter of it? I would guess the answer would be no, since that's not what sigs are all about.

What is so hard to understand here?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Aug 17 2008, 06:01 AM
Post #33


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,831
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
Further, if you had a sig, would you want someone making a huge thread out of debating every letter of it? I would guess the answer would be no, since that's not what sigs are all about.

Your link still goes where you want, it just has extra baggage. I don't see an issue, but I think that sigs are pretty pointless and exist primarily for ego-stoking purposes.

QUOTE
What is so hard to understand here?

For me, right now, it's why you think it's OK for you to claim a part of these forums as your own private playground. If others want to comment, you should appreciate that you've contributed to the exchange of ideas - that's far more important that having a b&m session to link in a silly sig.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Aug 17 2008, 06:20 AM
Post #34


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,679
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 17 2008, 12:46 AM) *
Further, if you had a sig, would you want someone making a huge thread out of debating every letter of it? I would guess the answer would be no, since that's not what sigs are all about.


Yes.

If you don't want to get wet then stay out of the water, that's pretty obvious. You could have put it up on your own space fairly easily. There is certainly enough free hosting around.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightmareX
post Aug 17 2008, 06:36 AM
Post #35


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 826
Joined: 5-September 05
From: LAX, UCAS
Member No.: 7,687



QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 17 2008, 01:01 AM) *
Your link still goes where you want, it just has extra baggage. I don't see an issue, but I think that sigs are pretty pointless and exist primarily for ego-stoking purposes.


There is also the amusement angle, and the "this is my general opinion so I don't have to repeat it a million times" angle. The latter was my intention.

QUOTE
For me, right now, it's why you think it's OK for you to claim a part of these forums as your own private playground.


One thread? One tiny thread? I'm sorry but that seems like a huge accusation to make over one thread. People post threads dedicated to their own purposes all the damn time. But I guess it's wrong when I do it huh?

QUOTE
If others want to comment, you should appreciate that you've contributed to the exchange of ideas - that's far more important that having a b&m session to link in a silly sig.


I would appreciate it if it actually accomplished a contribution to the exchange of ideas. This however seems to have turned into a "your an asshole cause you have an opinion" session that is unintentionally disruptive to the forum and thus borders on (me) trolling. And in that the entire original point seems to be lost to all but a few. That is why I regret posting this thread.

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 17 2008, 01:20 AM) *
If you don't want to get wet then stay out of the water, that's pretty obvious. You could have put it up on your own space fairly easily. There is certainly enough free hosting around.


As I said Hyzmarca, I'm dumb. I wasn't thinking. And for that I apologize.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Aug 17 2008, 06:44 AM
Post #36


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,831
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
People post threads dedicated to their own purposes all the damn time. But I guess it's wrong when I do it huh?

No, by all means dedicate this thread to whatever you wish - but I think you were wrong for trying to prevent others from commenting on it.

QUOTE
This however seems to have turned into a "your an asshole cause you have an opinion" session

Once again, you misunderstand - it's really more of a "You're an asshole for thinking that others should not reply with their own opinions" session. But hyzmarca said it a bit better and pretty clearly a few posts up.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Aug 17 2008, 06:46 AM
Post #37


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,618
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



Geez guys lay off on Nightmare. Just enjoy drinking down the sweet irony of the situation, which by now exists on multiple levels.

At any rate it is an interesting topic that probably should be discussed. The kurtz link a while back is worth a read and there has been some interesting insight from the writers themselves.

Actually on that note if one of the writers who worked on anything with hacking is around and feeling abused because we rag on it and our troubles with it daily there is a bit of a love fest for it at the beginning of the "why shadowrun" thread.



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightmareX
post Aug 17 2008, 06:58 AM
Post #38


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 826
Joined: 5-September 05
From: LAX, UCAS
Member No.: 7,687



QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 17 2008, 01:44 AM) *
No, by all means dedicate this thread to whatever you wish


Thank you (sincerely).

QUOTE
Once again, you misunderstand - it's really more of a "You're an asshole for thinking that others should not reply with their own opinions" session. But hyzmarca said it a bit better and pretty clearly a few posts up.


The only reason I didn't want comment is because I didn't want it to turn into turn into some big disruptive mess that seemed like/bordered on me trolling. That wasn't the intention, but rather to just state something once so I wouldn't have to keep repeating it. Truth to the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" I guess.

QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 17 2008, 01:46 AM) *
Geez guys lay off on Nightmare. Just enjoy drinking down the sweet irony of the situation, which by now exists on multiple levels.


Thank you Sunnyside *bows* but there is no need to defend me. I'm of the belief that stupidity should be painful and this is entirely the result of my own stupidity, thus gotta take my medicine and hopefully learn from it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Aug 17 2008, 07:12 AM
Post #39


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,618
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



Aw. He removed the thread link to this from his sig, which was the whole point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Still nightmare you can salvage your rant in pristine form. You could always put the rant up again over in the features board or what have you and ask a mod to lock it.

PS. Do not link to it until it has been locked.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightmareX
post Aug 17 2008, 07:26 AM
Post #40


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 826
Joined: 5-September 05
From: LAX, UCAS
Member No.: 7,687



QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 17 2008, 02:12 AM) *
Aw. He removed the thread link to this from his sig, which was the whole point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)


Yeah, to reduce the profile of this (embarrassing) mess a bit. Selling out to negative feedback I guess.

QUOTE
Still nightmare you can salvage your rant in pristine form. You could always put the rant up again over in the features board or what have you and ask a mod to lock it.

PS. Do not link to it until it has been locked.


I doubt I will. Depending on continuing reaction I may relink this, but I'm not gonna take up any more board space with this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
masterofm
post Aug 17 2008, 08:26 AM
Post #41


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,058
Joined: 4-February 08
Member No.: 15,640



Ok how can I put this... From what I gather is that people have a problem with the wording when you went off on people criticizing the rules/books/creators of Shadowrun. First off there are many different types of gamers who play SR. Some just take everything at face value and skip over things that don't fit into their view of the SR universe. There are those who take the book word for word, and there are those who try and find flaws in the rules.

Why it feels like a slap to the face for quite a few people reading this, is that when you posted your rant you might have forgotten is that many who complain about the books, or a rule, or a "something" on this forum are generally big fans of the SR universe. I myself enjoy Shadowrun and play it with a group of friends for 6 hours every week (or every other recently since we are all pretty busy with RL.) The problem I had with the overarching statement that was made in your rant was that there are some people who are just annoyed at certain parts of the game. For instance our group tried for months to make hacking a viable option before Unwired and eventually gave up and passed it over to some NPCs to avoid the headache. Our group was not the only group having this problem and that suggests that there is something seriously wrong with the rules if players are having such a hard time using it. I felt that after we play tested it for quite some time we came up with the conclusion that the rules were poorly written, and we didn't want to spend more time on something that we found annoying. I love Shadowrun and have bought the BBB just for myself, and the group has pitched in and bought every book but Unwired and Runners Companion (haven't decided if Unwired is worth the purchase, and RC has not been brought up as it is still quite new.) Just because I love Shadowrun still does not mean that I won't complain if I feel that a certain part of the rules are broken or need further clarification. It would be nice to close down some loops in the system and allow for more interesting gameplay.

In the long run though I always thought it is a good idea to gage the amount of bitching and/or complaining about certain rules/items to see if a system needs tweaking. Some erratas are there specifically because someone was nitpicky enough to spot a flaw where a few editors might have missed it or something was supposed to be added, but they forgot to in the final editing. In the end having people complain is just going to happen, and it's not always going to be civil, but I view it as an evil that needs to be there.

In the end it is harder to convey your point through words then it is when you speak them out loud. I'm sure it sounded less harsh in your head, but when you typed it out it seems a little too harsh. Maybe not your intention, but it did rile me up a little bit when reading it for the first time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightmareX
post Aug 17 2008, 11:45 AM
Post #42


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 826
Joined: 5-September 05
From: LAX, UCAS
Member No.: 7,687



QUOTE (masterofm @ Aug 17 2008, 03:26 AM) *
Ok how can I put this... From what I gather is that people have a problem with the wording when you went off on people criticizing the rules/books/creators of Shadowrun.


I've noticed that's been the case in a couple of threads here. I think it may be due to the fact that I simply don't post here enough, and thus people are unused to my style (I don't have this problem on other forums generally). Or maybe I'm just not being clear enough.

QUOTE
Why it feels like a slap to the face for quite a few people reading this, is that when you posted your rant you might have forgotten is that many who complain about the books, or a rule, or a "something" on this forum are generally big fans of the SR universe.


Perhaps. As noted I tried to imply that complain (feedback) = fine, disrespectful bitching = ungood. So yeah, a definite case of not being clear enough.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post Aug 18 2008, 02:43 AM
Post #43


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,125
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



How can I put this gently?

Lack of criticism, in whatever form, is what killed TSR; and almost took the gaming standard of all RPG's, Dungeons and Dragons, down with it.

This is an internet forum, and things don't always stay polite. But each and every one of us is here because we enjoy Shadowrun, in whatever form. That makes us an important part of the market: the consumers, who actually shell out money for the product. If your customers are mad enough to rant about something, you should at least listen to what they have to say, even if you don't agree with it. You may end up with a better product as a result.

I know that in the early days of SR4, some of us Dumpshockers ranted hard enough about rules problems that we got fixes implemented in the errata. That's an unfortunate reality of modern-day internet forums: in order to be noticed, you have to be something of a troll, and rattle enough cages to get noticed. The early flamewars about SR3 vs SR4 were brutal. But you know what? You got a better game out of the deal.

In the internet age, flamewars are the equivalent of letter-writing blitzes, and intelligent trolling is the equivalent of a publicity campaign. In short, the arguments here serve as a new form of customer feedback. Customer feedback isn't always constructive-- that's just the way it works. But it is no less valuable than carefully-worded, politically correct, overly-polite, "constructive" criticism.

We all know the SR4 team hangs out here. What's the best way to get attention on an internet forum? Well, start a thread, and get about a hundred replies in one day. The easiest way to to that is to start a controversy. Some mistake that for trolling and flaming, which isn't the same thing. But unless you start with a harsh stance, and defend it voraciously, it won't go anywhere and no one will read your thread. By causing controversy, you attract the notice of people who can do something about it, and even convince them that they're wrong. It's worked in the past, both in the real world and here on Dumpshock.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Aug 18 2008, 03:28 AM
Post #44


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 18 2008, 03:43 AM) *
Lack of criticism, in whatever form, is what killed TSR; and almost took the gaming standard of all RPG's, Dungeons and Dragons, down with it.

Be fair, bad business practices in general is what killed TSR.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post Aug 18 2008, 03:54 AM
Post #45


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,125
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 17 2008, 08:28 PM) *
Be fair, bad business practices in general is what killed TSR.

I've read a few articles on the subject, so you're kinda right. They didn't make a lot of sound business decisions in many areas. But the root of all their problems was that they didn't do anything resembling market research. They just jumped at trends, and did whatever they felt was right, confident that their large fan base would support them no matter what.

The Spellfire debacle is a good example. TSR saw that CCG's were a goldmine, and decided to release their own. However, they didn't playtest the game very well (IIRC, at the time, there was a no-gaming rule at the TSR offices) and they overestimated the amount they'd sell, and vastly overprinted their product. As a result, they had pallets of Spellfire cards collecting dust at warehouses.

Another problem was that they saw that new settings were becoming popular, so they pumped out a bundle of new settings. However, they didn't playtest the rules, and didn't bother checking for compatibility between settings and other published rules. As a result, chaos reigned at the gaming table. Just try counting how many different versions of "Gladiator" you could play under AD&D for an example. Planescape was probably the death knell, since you could combine characters from all the different settings there, all of which operated under different rules. They might have all shared the same basic mechanics, but the resulting applications were wildly different. Also, they still had massive inventory issues, consistently printing out way more product than they could sell.

The lesson here? Don't jump on trends. Check your market carefully. Playtest your product to destruction; if you don't do it, your players most certainly will. Don't radically change your product without a lot of careful considerations as to how it all fits together. And most of all, listen to your players!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Aug 18 2008, 03:59 AM
Post #46


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,452
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



And don't forget to pay the publisher of the the crappy fiction you overproduced and allowed to collect in their warehouse. Because someday they will want to get paid....
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post Aug 18 2008, 04:19 AM
Post #47


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,125
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 17 2008, 07:59 PM) *
And don't forget to pay the publisher of the the crappy fiction you overproduced and allowed to collect in their warehouse. Because someday they will want to get paid....

That's another problem stemming from bad market research. Their market research was basically: "Hey, novels sold well in the past, let's pump out a lot more!"

If they'd been doing proper research, they would have been able to get a better estimate on their market. It wasn't that the novels were *that* crappy; some of them, like the Drizzt works, became quite popular. However, they just pulled target sales figures out of their collective asses. As a result, they printed over a million tie-in books which never sold. That's right, over a million books were returned as unsellable, IIRC.

I don't have actual print run numbers to compare, but I'll bet you that D&D 4E didn't even print a million copies of their core rulebooks for initial release. In fact, while the only numbers I can find are from Wikipedia (which is suspect), they suggest that there's only 4 million D&D players worldwide. So, they overguessed their market by hundreds of thousands.

If they'd done some market research, gotten some feedback from players of all stripes, they would have discovered that a million-book market didn't exist for their product. They didn't need constructive criticism, they just needed a realistic number as to how large their market really was.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Not of this Worl...
post Aug 18 2008, 04:25 AM
Post #48


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 245
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle Metroplex
Member No.: 217



QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 16 2008, 09:27 PM) *
Obviously the "don't" part.


Particularly when combined with the public forum part. Doubly so for the most active part of that Active forum.

Also, is it somehow less bad when the pissing and moaning is done towards the people who do constructively criticize? Lets face it, there is always plenty of personal attack to go around for fans and critics alike. It is why I can usually only stick around dumpshock for so long every time I take up posting again.

It isn't even nearly as bad now since the lounge is gone where things really got heated and nasty.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cthulhudreams
post Aug 18 2008, 05:02 AM
Post #49


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,650
Joined: 21-July 07
Member No.: 12,328



A couple of big lols in this thread.

A) Starting a post in a dicussion forum, then asking people not to discuss it.

B) The old trope of 'KRITISM IS OWNLY OK IF U RIGHT IT URSELF LOLOLOLOL' (sic). I guess you better start an e-petition to take ebert's Pulitzer prize away from him because he has neither directed or acted. Clearly one is unable to present rational criticism of anything without being a professional yourself. Medical malpractice suits will no doubt cease overnight, or maybe rational thinking customers are capable of assessing whether the product they paid for and use is badly produced.

The total inanity of those points aside, while the developer presence is a good thing in general, in can be a bad thing in specific cases.

Take rarity based racial pricing. When this was noticed (orks vs elves) Several People ™ complained about it. When it was rehashed for great stupidity in runners companion (meta varients), the maths of its operation became even more painfully obvious (If I just take an ork and add these qualities...) lots of people critised rarity based pricing as the worst idea ever.

Then Synner came out and stated that this policy will not change while he is editor, he stands by it, and thinks its a good idea.

Rational discourse has just evaporated. The argument has been made, and the writer who controls it thinks it is stupid and that the other team are idiots. The same think happens constantly with the matrix rules and Aaron.

This leads directly to complaining and trash talking because rational debate has been exhausted and there is no third party to appeal to. Where else can you? I suppose you can produce an alternative ruleset (thus filling step B) and then keep trash talking until you get banned, but this isn't really a satisfying option.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Aug 18 2008, 05:34 AM
Post #50


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,452
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



It's interesting that I haven't heard of anyone who was involved in the process of putting of 4th ed who felt that playtesting was actually effective. Comments I've heard from playtesters were that their feedback was totally ignored and from freelancers that the playtester comments they saw suggested that the playtesters were illiterate idiots who weren't actually reading the rules. I'm not at all sure that they were referring to any shared experiences, but it sure feels like large parts of the rules were never actually played by people who had to figure out how the game worked by reading the rulebook.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 17th April 2014 - 06:39 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.