Why Shadowrun?, And why the edition you play Options

[sunnyside]

I'm both curious about this, and think it might be useful for selling SR to future players compared to other systems with an argument better than "Well I already have the books..."

For me I like SR because in many ways it makes more sense than some of the over the top dystopian settings (CP2020), and had a very tactical and lethal combat system (As opposed with the idiocity of Paladium). Also I enjoy the magic and matrix elements. They make for a lot more plotting options, and makes players not step on each others toes so much. Finally I liked that PCs started off fairly cool. It made it easy for people to get into it, and allowed for more complex and realistic stories from early on.

As for edition I really wanted to resist 4th edition. I have a massive stack of 2nd edition books, and do not look upon my 3rd edition purchases as wise investments as ulitmately I wasn't impressed with 3rd compared to 2nd and now with another edition out they aren't even current. And I really didn't like the idea of removing the changable target numbers.

However 4th ed hacking was simply irresistable. It confuses every GM that comes across it, and has some issues in the details. But really it's the best hacking/matrix concept out there, not just in SR but in any system I know of. Fast, useful, and integrated into daily life So I made the switch.

[Synner667]

Bizarre - I was thinking about this same topic and was going to post it.

Personally, out of all the Cybergames out there [HERO, GURPS, CP2020, Trinity, Kromosome, CyberGeneration, SLA Industries, the D20 modernday one I can't remem the name of, Shatterzone, Twilight Inc, Corporation, Ex Machina, TORG - off the top of my head], SR has no advantage over any of the others.

HERO and GURPS are more flexible.
CyberGen and Trinity have very good rules and feel for integrating the virtual word into the real world - and did it years ago.

CP2020 is modelled on Neuromancer-esque, and does an admirable job.

SR has a rich and vibrant background...
...But it's def not the only one to have tactics, options, magic, matrix, realistic and complex stories.

And, really, SR v4 appears to have faded away much of the SR1-3 background, so it's not as different as it used to be.


I'm really interested in why people play SR rather than any of the other options our there...
...Is it just because the other options aren't hyped as much ?? The rules are faster/easier ?? Flexibility ?? Amount of gear ?? Grit ??

I'm just curious.

[Rasumichin]

Why SR?

Because it is hillariously over the top, pink mohawk, style over substance, especially with 1st ed Germany sourcebook's Berlin coupled with 4th ed RC and Augmentation.

Because of the combination of physical world, matrix and astral space, providing 3 simultaneous battlefields, along with the complex social networks and technological possibilities of modern societies.

Because it deconstructs clichés from classic fantasy.

And finally, because i'm used to it and have been playing it since the early 90s.


Why 4th edition?

Matrix rules that don't make you want to outsource the hacking to an NPC and don't mean the decker would be better off killing himself and let the player stat out a new character when the cyberdeck gets lost.
In fact, because it doesn't require half of the team to be millionaires who have wasted a fortune on illegal items.

Because AR > VR.

Because i like the streamlined and flexible magic rules.
Or, for that matter, the more streamlined rules in general.

Because i like the new TN system better.

Because it contains jarheads and all the whacky stuff from RC.
All the whacknes from previous editions and then some.

Because it is, even with all the additional rules out now, still more rules light than 3rd ed.

Because it has got more drugs.
And cyberlimbs that are actually useful.

Because the old, 4-stage damage system made no sense to me anyway.

Because Dikote™ sucks and portable gauss rifles rule.


And because i've spent enough time getting into the system to make it work to its full extend.

[HappyDaze]

Right now, I don't play SR. I've tried, but the rules seem cumbersome and too much detail actually detracts from my enjoyment. I'm finding that I like easy games these days - heavy on flavor and low on crunch - WHFRP. Dark Heresy, Hollow Earth Expedition, and Savage Worlds all give me that. In fact, I'm looking at playing SR with the Savage Worlds rules just to get by the clunky crunch.

[Adarael]

I play 4th currently. Three big reasons why:
1) I've been playing Shadowrun since 1st editon, and I've generally followed the timeline. Adapting 4th edition stuff to 3rd edition rules or vice versa is often more work than I'd like it to be. So it's just easier to use the native rules.
2) The Matrix. It doesn't require massive time expenditures, and I've plugged most of the egregious holes in the basic rules, so it works pretty well.
3) It's a lot easier for people that aren't me - and therefore don't own just about every SR book ever - to find rulebooks for.

[MJBurrage]

Why Shadowrun?
Because it has legend based fantasy (magic, races, etc.) AND high-tech (cyber, matrix, etc.) together in a world with a cool back story that ties it all together well. I have been playing since 1990, so am experienced with all editions, but would still play in the world (with say GURPS rules) even if I thought the native rules were that bad.

Why 4th Ed.?
Because hacking works well enough to be used by PCs. Other minor reasons include the fixed target numbers (fixes the TN 6/7 issue), and that it is current. (Just because I have everything published in English (and then some) does not mean that the average player in my (currently two) groups does.)

^{P.S. I also like that the 4th Ed. difference between heavy and light pistols is more reasonable, it always bugged me that the .45 equivalent was so much better than the 9mm equivalent. But I can also get obsessive about things that don't really matter that much.}

[ludomastro]

Why SR?

In a word: Awesome.

I started with 2nd in college and haven't had any regrets. My first character was a phys-ad (back when you they were called physical adepts) Troll with an attitude (brought over from my DnD days). Our run took us to Japan with all the meta-hate and the GM played up the dystopian setting. When my troll got his mid-section bitten out by an small(ish) Eastern dragon and I then had to "watch" him bleed to death, I learned two things. 1) Being a smartass in SR is a bad idea. 2) The old "common sense" edge (i.e. positive quality) is your friend in a new system.

I still play because the system - grit and all - makes for a much more lethal kind of game.

Why do I play SR4? Because as was mentioned previously, SR3<SR2. Since SR2 is a legacy system now, I play with SR4 to keep up on what's current.

[Squinky]

Me and my bro started in 2nd edition, and it just stuck. We stumbled across the SNES game, and since then SR has been "the one".

I've played a bunch of other stuff, but it just doesn't feel like home.

[crash_00]

Shadowrun because of the flavor. It's has such a rich background that weaves the technology and magic together. I can actually read through the sourcebooks, and I can actually play a character that cares about things in the world. I still remember the session i was playing when my character found out about Big Ds death.

This is one of the reasons I havn't switched to 4th edition. It's just seems bland compared to the last editions. The again, I never liked success based systems, I prefer the TN ones.

3rd edition for me. Its what I started with and it just flows well while being grity enough to support the world.

[Isath]

Hm... oh boy... where to begin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

When I started SR1 in...must have been '90 or so, I allready had experience in fantasy set rpgs. SR was a new approach to me, with elements that I wascomfortable with (fantasy), elements I knew (the real world[tm]) and elements that always fascinated me, SiFi. That's why I started, how I got to know SR in the first place is a totaly different story. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Over the years, I played in several campaigns, created several of them as well, and liked every new edition more than the old. Adapting was hardest, while switching from 1st to 2nd Ed. as it was the first time I encountered the concept of "surprise its a new game now" in roleplaying. There also have been times, when I did not play SR for a while, part of that time was filled with CP2020, which I definately do not like less than SR. Still I do not tend to play both systems at a time.

Today I play SR because it is one of my homes somehow. It is a world that has been with me for a long tme now (even when not playing actively). There is much about this world that I hold dear and my initial reasons are some of those.

Why SR4... SR has done an important step, it included many of the things that CP2020 was better at, than SR had ever been. So in SR4 I have SR with a bit of what I prefered in CP2020. Also it is (in my eyes) more like a SR2. Somehow I see SR2 as SR1.2 and SR3 as SR1.3. The 4th edition, is the one edition, that streamlined and cleaned up much of that rule and story clutter, SR has collected over the years - it is the first massive change. While many hate changes, I like them, if they are good (which they are IHMO). Also I see more belivabillity in some aspects. While it is always hard to predict how the future will look and work, it is strange to play a future setting with high-tech, that is low-tech compared to todays standart (post-civilization scenarios excluded).

Much time has past, I changed, SR did so aswell and we still like each other (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Zombayz]

For me, above all, it's the grit.

When I played DnD(long live 2.0/3.0/3.5!!), I loved the gritty low level stuff. High level was good and all, but only if it was dangerous as hell. Shadowrun has the grit, setting, rules, and history that combine so perfectly it's beauty is almost painful.

Plus, where else can I combine grit and the ability to take a tank shell and not even flinch with the same ruleset and starting points?

[Not of this Worl...]

Why Shadowrun?

Originally I got hooked on Robert N. Charrette's first book, the first novel for Shadowrun and the mix of High Fantasy with a folklore base and Cyberpunk instantly had me hooked.

Why 3rd edition?

It fixed a lot of problems with overly complex rules in 2nd edition, and greatly improved riggers and deckers in the setting. The rules aren't without problems, but I've home ruled those away in my own games a long time ago. 4th edition had some good changes but took it too far and broke belief in the virtual/augmented reality system by making everything like cyberware, guns, and your kitchen sink hackable. Plus 4th edition Matrix is treated much like the Matrix, with everyone including the hermit in the woods having a "presence" in the Matrix.

Character creation is a lot simpler and faster than 4th edition.

3rd edition books have a richer feel with the unique slang. Magic in 3rd edition still has distinct mechanical and roleplaying differences between different traditions from 4th edition which makes it again a richer setting (even though 3rd and 2nd edition both suffer from too many variations on magic systems).

4th edition has mostly done away with the use of Shadowslang that helped create the setting of a different culture and a different time from our current one. It also made the game more friendly to play in family friendly game stores and mixed age groups.

Of my old regular Shadowrun players (about a dozen) in Oregon, only one is willing to play 4th edition and only because it is the only game in the neighborhood area he moved to.

Plus as a Shadowrun veteran [1st through 3rd editions] (these wouldn't effect someone brand new to Shadowrun) I find a number of things very annoying about contemplating switching to 4th:

Needless renaming of well established core rules (Edges & Flaws are become "Qualities", Karma Pool is now Edge, etc) creating even more needless confusion.

Massive jump/shift in SR storyline. There is a jump of 5+ years from the last 3rd edition book to SR4. This was used to change a lot of the known characters, corporations, countries, etc other elements of the setting. This is good if you thought the setting needed a lot of changes.

Lack of storyline continuity between 3rd and 4th editions. Were you a fan of things like Otaku, one of the AIs like Megaera, resurgent ancient cultures (Native American Nations that were portrayed as Native and not corporate), or Elves being in charge of Elven nations? Out with the old, in with the new. 4th edition has a lot of storyline changes that just won't "Jive" with a lot of campaign settings from 3rd edition and there isn't a sense of closure or continuity to them. Particularly when it comes to the Matrix it lacks consistency with prior editions or even different books of this edition.

[sunnyside]

Karma Pool is now Edge, etc) creating even more needless confusion.

Actually that was the second biggest reason for switching over to 4th. First karma pool started off low, and having some is useful. But if you had a group where the players could go a long time without getting killed Karma Pool would start getting out of control. In principle it could get burned off, possibly really fast, but often a player would simply rather be dead than hand of god, and would suffer much not to burn.

And the person who didn't burn/die would start getting a little nutty.

Tied in with that is one of the things I like about SR is that you don't start out as some dunce who can barely wipe their own butt and the work your way up to being over 9000.

Players can tackle more as they gain experience. But I find that has as much to do with players getting smarter, sharper and more competent in the game work as opposed to rolling a couple more dice.

[Cadmus]

Lots of reasons really,
I like tech and magic, I like a game where more thinking is involved even if I do suck at talking to npcs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . In a lot of games it can degrade so quickly into the old D&D idea of enter hole in ground, kill monster, loot monster, SR just seems more creative, And like most games I play it was teh fiction and writing that got me intrested in the game it was based around.

I mean lots of games have elfs,dragons,vampires ect. And in lots of games you can avoid being eaten by these creatures...but in shadowrun the dragon dosn't have to eat you..no far worse..he can just SUE! you..true evil I know..

*Fighter runs into cave* HA! I have my +8 sword of dragon slaying you shall fall before me creature!
*Dragon yawns and a door to the side opens* Yes but I have my lvl 6 Attorney with a +3 Subpoena, Now Roll your Legalezze language skill and tremble before my litigation <evil dragon laugh>

[Chrysalis]

Well, I started playing SR4 tthis spring I think. I am an old CP2020 fan and what got me into Shadowrun was simply how much CO v.3.0 sucked. Personally I prefer playing SLA Industries more, but I have trouble finding players. However Shadowrun is in print which means that it is somehow staying up with technology and is not as rules heavy as GURPS and is fun to play. 'nuff said.

So if v3.0 hadn't been crap in the shape of a book I would have stayed with it, but as it is not I am now here.

[psychophipps]

I play SR 4th after a fairly long (100+ karma earned) SR 3rd game. I played SR back in 1st Ed in between CP2020 because I had a grip of friends who liked aspects of the CP-genre but were also Hugh Jass fantasy fans. To them it was all about the mix of elves, orcs, magic, cyberware, and guns. I preferred CP but they wanted some magic in the mix now and again so I ran and played SR, too. Skipped 2nd completely except for a short campaign and wasn't impressed at all.

Why 4th? To be frank, the dice engine rocks. I find SR 4th to be what I wish SR was in 1st Ed. Easy to use, streamlined, and intuitive. Some people bitched that it's NWOD with d6 but I fail to see where the issue with that is, either. Both are great gaming engines.

The best part of SR 4, IMO? That the meta-plot (and I'm sure it's coming) hasn't had a chance to beat you over the head yet. I run games that are SR rules-based, not SR background based except in the loosest terms (corps, ghouls, spells, etc). Hell, I don't even know the real name of the event that the NA super-mage used to punkslap the old US in the original storyline! Strangely enough, this hasn't affected our game, or the ability for us to have fun, in the slightest.

The worst part of SR 4th? I feel that the developers sometimes feel the need to add something too much or too fast at times to bulk up the books. I think that game development, especially when adding new non-optional rules (yeah, I know that they're all technically optional but like that's really the reality of the situation to players (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) to the ruleset, is like Novocaine. Just give it time and it'll work out fine. You rush things and all you'll have is a pissed off patient(s). This is just an opinion folks and the reality of publishing is that the end has to roll a lot faster than the start as the poor, overworked editors start yelling for their pieces of the puzzle so they can put the damn thing together.

I grab what I like, I toss the rest. Works for me.

[GreyBrother]

Why Shadowrun? Because it adds Magic and Technology. The setting is also kinda cool, if not too much focused on Runners, but that's not much of a problem. I wouldn't know what to play in CP2020. In Shadowrun, i don't face that problem.

Why 4th Edition? I started with the 3rd Edition. We had a nice little plot going (although confusing for my character) until i said one day "Guys, would you want to try out the 4th Edition rules in a one-shot?". Our time-managing GM mentioned that we should better choose to actually change the system, since one guy has troubles with the SR3 Rules. My reason to change was the IMO better ruleset, although i was biased because it reminded me so much of the NWOD (which i dislike). But it works good and is fun and the fights are much quicker resolved. The setting is something i love, mostly because the matrix now makes sense and the cyberpunk style isn't that much 80s anymore.

[Sir_Psycho]

Me and a mate used to play "Dee-en-dee", which had nothing to do with Dungeons and Dragons, it was just a system that two 8 year old kids made up to tell eachother stories while sitting around a beach house, or in the gardens during sunday lunches between families. There were no real rules or stats. You described your character, and then to make the game not so easy, we had the "pick a finger" rule system. Where the GM would hold out their hand and the player would select a finger, with differences made up on the spot, such as "you open the chest and:
-There's a spider in the chest and it bites you. Pick a finger to see if it's poisonous or not!
-There's 20 bucks. Awesome!
-Suddenly a angry spirit appears defending the chest!
-The chest is locked and you can't get in.
-You find a sword"

Most of the games were a combination of the Starcraft universe and the Fifth Element (it was what we were into as young'ns). And it was pretty fun, but the chance of death was relatively tiny, and most of the time all you'd need to do is say "I backflip off the barstool onto the table and kick him. Right in the face", and the margin for error was often incredibly slim. We applied this system to many things, such as pirate adventures, sci-fi, medieval/magic games, detective stories, etc.

I never had a problem with PnP games, I just thought they weren't for me. All I really heard about was dungeons and dragons. And I figured if I wanted to play that kind of game, I could just fire up Diablo or The Elder Scrolls and have a more streamlined and stimulating fantasy dungeon crawling experience.

However my dee-en-dee buddy had a friend. The kid was pretty separated from reality, and had aspergers syndrome, and he also picked up a shadowrun habit and the 3rd ed core book from his older brothers. One time at our holiday house, my friend borrowed that book and brought it up, and I fell in love with the concept. I thought "Orks and elves with mind-computers! Awesome!" and so the obsession began. It was just like Dee-en-dee, but with a fixed yet versatile concept, and with an actual mechanical system that determined whether you succeeded or not, that was more relevant to character than pick a finger.

That's what got me, a child very disinclined to take any interest in anything involving numbers and equations and crunch interested in roleplaying. I resisted 4th ed for quite some time when I found it. I thought 3rd ed was fine, and felt like the atmosphere had more veracity. It wasn't until I joined Dumpshock and saw everyone else playing 4th and espousing the virtues of the unified system that I decided to pick up the rules and see what all the fuss was about. I realised that I could still use the same ideas that 3rd ed had fostered with it's artwork (I loved Bergting and Hoop's edgy black and white stuff - still do) and fluff, but I just had to do less fiddly mathematics.

[NightmareX]

Why Shadowrun?
I started SR back in '90 with 1st edition, and while the group at the time ended up playing only about a campaign and a half (finishing about halfway through Harlequin), I got totally hooked on the setting. The magic system was what lured me the most, having only been familiar with D&D Vancian magic at the time (SR is the second RPG I tried) the concept of being able to cast at will was just beyond awesome. The actual mechanics of the magic system annoyed the hell outta me, as did the rest of 1st edition mechanics (variable staging is the major complaint), but the concepts behind it I fell in love with. From there atmosphere, the flavor, the in-jokes, the foreign-but-familiarness, the faux-realness, and cybergoodness just barged on in and settled in to stay (y'know how you invite one person to a party and they bring like 20 other people you never heard of? Kinda like that). The metaplot and world itself have kept me coming back (if not entirely faithful) ever since.

Why 4th Edition?
Back in the early days of SR1 we ran Food Fight. A 5 round gunfight (during which my mage KOed himself with drain without effecting a single target) took 2 hours to game out. The Matrix, while cool, was a place that we stared in awed confusion at and left the decking up to an NPC. Eventually everyone got tired of messing around with variable staging and armor that could only be defeated by nuclear weapons and quit, leaving me to buy the GM's books from him thus forming the core of my collection. I can still remember the stale cigarette smoke smell of the BBB as I type about it now. In college, I started SR2. They fixed the variable staging mess, made armor feasible, and introduced alot of cool things, but they also moved it away from the beautiful grit and punks in the streets goodness of 1st Edition, ending up very much more manapunk then anything. 3rd edition came out and I switch immediately, partly to keep up with what was current, partly because I had yet other new group of players. The SR3 BBB consolidated alot of the old stuff, fixed some problems, and almost, almost brought back the punks in the street grit. It was so close but they dropped the ball somewhere and it ended up feeling more like Mission Impossible than SR. And the Matrix was still a place to loose your sanity, only not so much so - SR3 is the only edition I've actually used the Matrix RAW to this point.

Then SR4 comes out, and my group looks at it with the proverbial hairy eyeball. After debating and looking over the BBB a while, we decide to give it a shot. That 5 round gunfight? It's down to 10-15 mins realtime now, and that's with only one player that's familiar with the game. The mechanics are (mostly) coherent, simple, and make sense while still being tailored to the world, and for the first time the Matrix is understandable and easily usable! Annoying setting elements (the godlike AIs, the horrors metaplot and it's aftermath, IE proliferation, CATco) are gone or being minimized and the world is rolling on in a quasi-believable fashion. So we updated and haven't looked back since. And the lack of Karma pool makes it almost feasible to play my namesake character, who hails way back from the good old days, again. Almost.

Are there problems? Yes. Technomancers are basically magical in nature, there's too damn many AIs running around, combat against PCs and important NPCs has become a game of depleting their unspent Edge until they finally give up the ghost, one still needs a full pound of dice to play with a mid-sized group (plus GM), and Shadowland and it's NeoAnarchist undertones are gone, replaced by pale imitations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

And it's still not punks in the street gritty (being somewhere about halfway between Mission Impossible and Pink Mohawk IMO). But that is something I fear exists now only in my memory.....

[CanRay]

The Universe sold me. Started with the novels...

I wanted to play since '92, but could never find a group in my hometown.

Finally broke down a few years ago, bought the main rulebook (SR4 BBB), and said, "Damnit! Even if I have to GM, I'm damn well going to play it!"

So far, my group has been enjoying things despite my in-experience as a GM.

"VIC THE CABBIE! Good! I need you to go to this place and steal a cow!" "When?" "NOW!!!"

[Eugene]

I loved Snow Crash and most of William Gibson - if you wanted to play in a game like that, you really only had Cyberpunk 2020, GURPS, and Shadowrun as options.

I love the kind of stories that you can naturally tell with it - capers, heists, espionage, who can you trust kind of stuff. I love that not all the rules are for combat - that you get details about contacts and lifestyles (especially in 3rd), and it's really necessary to role-play to get the job done. I love that you can have a fight with machine guns, spirits, and helicopters in one run yet pat yourselves on the back that not a shot was fired in another. I love the modern and fantasy blend. I love the story and the world - bug spirits, shamans, Deus, the tenuous Earthdawn connections, everything really except for immortal elves.

I play 4th because I like the rules, I like the way the Matrix is handled and how drones are simpler, and (honestly) because it's the best way to keep current.

[Wasabi]

I choose Shadowrun because the players tend to be detective and roleplay oriented. It can have some wargaming style combats if folks want that aspect but all in all its a complicated gameoworld where you never really know what to expect.

[Chrysalis]

Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big tri-d screen, choose nexi the size of washing machines, cheap cars, sim-rigs and cybernetic commlinks. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter lifestyle. Choose your contacts. Choose leisurewear and matching weapons. Choose you elf stripper on hire purchase in a range of fucking tastes. Choose DIY vehicles and wondering who the fuck you are on Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows on AR, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got Shadowrunning?

[Pendaric]

I started in CP2020 but it struck me as grey, all shades of black and white. SR was full of colour in the background. You could be a mercenary who sacraficed your flesh and sanity to cyberware but you could also be a neo anachist antihero who slung spells.
It was the vivid and vibrant background that entraces me, the cyberpunk/fantasy fusion making something greater than the compontent parts.

I still play 3rd ed for three reasons;
The first: inertial/practicality we have a long running game and we're all happy with it and don't want the hassle to change.
The second: the rule are a frankinsteinin mess but there is always something new to tantalize and inspire.
Finally: I prefer the 3rd ed matrix rules where the decker has a nano second neon quest to seize victory.

A happy side effect of 4th ed is that I can take inspiration for my third ed game for sota and meta plot developement.

[Wesley Street]

It grabbed my thirteen year-old mind and blew it. It was so hilariously over the top with its Neuromancer meets Lord of the Rings setting that it was something that I just had to play. I've thumbed through Cyberpunk and it seems so... stale in comparison. Seventeen years later, I discovered that there was a 4th Edition. I wanted to get my gaming group away from tedious hack 'n slash D&D adventures and this seemed like the perfect opportunity to do so. The rules were simplified, deckers/hackers could actually run with the group, it was an easy game to teach... it all clicked. So I think I'm one of the few who jumped from 1st ed. to 4th. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)