I cannot believe there aren't more Vietnam War RPGs, Talk about material that is both suitable and interesting Options

[Wounded Ronin]

I cannot believe there aren't more Vietnam War RPGs or settings. In the first place, being a war where lots of different people did lots of widely different tasks (i.e. various roles in the military, journalists, the peanut gallery back in the US, etc etc etc.) it represents a very rich setting for running different types of RPG settings and characters. We can equally imagine a special forces campaign, a Army draftee campaign, a Marines campaign, a journalist campaign, or even a criminal campaign taking place in the seedy back alleys of Saigon. There is such a wealth of evocative material for players and gamemasters to draw on. There's extensive video footage of the Vietnam War, and also very innovative music from that time period, with many peices dealing directly with the subject matter of the ongoing war. I feel like the incorporation of period music, including protest music, can contribute greatly to making a campaign engrossing and immersive.

I also believe it would be correct to say that even today, the Vietnam War affects the lives of most Americans. The conflict between the social and cultural movements of the 1960s and those who opposed them in many ways were made manifest by social conflict within the United States over the Vietnam War, and the current ongoing cultural war and growing divide in the United States between liberals and conservatives can be traced directly back to the original conflicts created by fundamental disagreements over the appropriateness of the Vietnam War and the proper role of the individual American in relation to the Vietnam War. The conflict between liberals and conservatives continues to grow more vehement and venemous and one gets the impression that many older Americans still exhibit extreme emotional reactions over the Vietnam-related issues of yesteryear.

All this means that there is so much background material that could be incorporated into character backgrounds in a Vietnam War RPG setting. Rather than character backgrounds being entirely fabricated through imagination as they would have to be for a pure fantasy setting with no basis in reality, there are a wealth of real peoples' backgrounds and reactions in the context of the Vietnam War which would form a very rich and well developed base for Vietnam War RPG characters.

In terms of hack-and-slash and tactics it's hard to imagine a romp more fun than the Vietnam War, except perhaps World War II. Vietnam era weaponry in and of itself is iconic; white phosphorous, M16A1s, AK47s, claymore mines, agent orange, and M60 machineguns with overheating barrels. Electronics and computer systems by and large hadn't stepped in to the extent they have today and weapons systems still had something of the operatic World War II quality to them.

They also had C rations. Personally I'm fascinated by C rations. When I was in the FSM there was a washed up elderly skinny veteran and I asked him all about C rations, and about the P38 can opener.

In short, I can't believe that RPGs are not all over the Vietnam War.

[casarez]

The only one that comes to mind is the Recon RPG. I remember getting that and the Laos expansion back in the day. Although it really only dealt with LRRP/SOG type units.

But I played that so long ago I do not even remember the mechanics.

[hobgoblin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_2000

or maybe the merc 2000 variant should probably do the trick.

[Voran]

I wonder how much it has to do with "Too close in recent history" as well as "The outcome wasn't as positive".

Its kinda odd, but Vietnam still has a wierd vibe here in the US. Its odd because when you look at other stuff: Any game that lets you fight Russians (Cold War era) or "Terrorists", or even the old standbys of German Nazis, you'd think the gaming industry isn't really that oriented to being sensitive to other cultures, but then you note that at least until recently WW2 games didn't really have FPS "shoot up Japanese soldiers", or shoot-up asians soldiers of anytype actually. I can't recall the last FPS that faced you against Japanese, Korean or Chinese soldiers.

Mercenaries/Mercenaries 2 is the closest I've seen to a game that lets you blow up soldiers that aren't just European ones.

[Wounded Ronin]

http://www.rjsmith.com/vietnam-era-music.html

Wow, check it out! Someone put up a list of Vietnam era music. If I had unlimited money I'd release a Vietnam War RPG and it would come with a CD full of musical selections from a list like this.

The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1965
1. Eve of Destruction - Barry McGuire
2. Hang On Sloopy - The McCoys
3. You Were On My Mind - We Five
4. The In Crowd - The Ramsey Lewis Trio
5. Like a Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan
6. Help - The Beatles
7. Unchained Melody - The Righteous Brothers
8. Catch Us If You Can - The Dave Clark Five
9. Yesterday - The Beatles
10. I Got You Babe - Sonny & Cher
11. It Ain't Me Babe - The Turtles
12. California Girls - The Beach Boys
13. Tracks of My Tears - The Miracles
14. Papa's Got a Brand New Bag - James Brown
15. Baby Don't Go - Sonny & Cher
16. Some Enchanted Evening - Jay & the Americans
17. Action - Freddy Cannon
18. We Gotta Get Out of This Place - The Animals
19. You've Got Your Troubles - The Fortunes
20. Baby I'm Yours - Barbara Lewis


The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1966

1. Cherish - The Association
2. You Can't Hurry Love - The Supremes
3. Reach Out I'll Be There - The Four Tops
4. Yellow Submarine - The Beatles
5. Sunshine Superman - Donovan
6. Black Is Black - Los Bravos
7. 96 Tears - ? (Question Mark) & the Mysterians
8. Mr. Dieingly Sad - The Critters
9. Beauty Is Only Skin Deep - The Temptations
10. Bus Stop - The Hollies
11. I've Got You Under My Skin - The 4 Seasons
12. See You In September - The Happenings
13. Wouldn't It Be Nice - The Beach Boys
14. Cherry, Cherry - Neil Diamond
15. Wipe Out - The Surfaris
16. Guantanamera - The Sandpipers
17. Sunny - Bobby Hebb
18. Born Free - Roger Williams
19. Walk Away Renee - The Left Banke
20. Sunny Afternoon - The Kinks


The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1967

1. The Letter - The Box Tops
2. To Sir With Love - Lulu
3. Ode to Billie Joe - Bobbie Gentry
4. Apples, Peaches, Pumpkin Pie - Jay & the Techniques
5. Never My Love - The Association
6. How Can I Be Sure - The Young Rascals
7. Come Back When You Grow Up - Bobby Vee
8. Dandelion - The Rolling Stones
9. Reflections - Diana Ross & the Supremes
10. Expressway to Your Heart - The Soul Survivors
11. You're My Everything - The Temptations
12. Higher and Higher - Jackie Wilson
13. Funky Broadway - Wilson Pickett
14. (I Wanna) Testify - The Parliaments
15. People Are Strange - The Doors
16. Gimme Little Sign - Brenton Wood
17. I Dig Rock and Roll Music - Peter, Paul & Mary
18. San Franciscan Nights - Eric Burdon & the Animals
19. All You Need Is Love - The Beatles
20. Hey Baby (They're Playing Our Song) - The Buckinghams


The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1968

1. Hey Jude - The Beatles
2. Hush - Deep Purple
3. Harper Valley P.T.A. - Jeannie C. Riley
4. 1, 2, 3, Red Light - The 1910 Fruitgum Company
5. People Got to Be Free - The Rascals
6. Light My Fire - Jose Feliciano
7. The Fool On the Hill - Sergio Mendes & Brasil '66
8. Born to Be Wild - Steppenwolf
9. Girl Watcher - The O'Kaysions
10. I've Gotta Get a Message to You - The Bee Gees
11. Do It Again - The Beach Boys
12. Slip Away - Clarence Carter
13. Say It Loud - I'm Black and I'm Proud - James Brown
14. My Special Angel - The Vogues
15. You're All I Need to Get By - Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell
16. Sunshine of Your Love - Cream
17. Little Green Apples - O.C. Smith
18. Revolution - The Beatles
19. Time Has Come Today - The Chambers Brothers
20. Fire - The Crazy World of Arthur Brown


The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1969

1. Sugar, Sugar - The Archies
2. Honky Tonk Women - The Rolling Stones
3. Jean - Oliver
4. I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Tom Jones
5. Easy to Be Hard - Three Dog Night
6. Get Together - The Youngbloods
7. I Can't Get Next to You - The Temptations
8. A Boy Named Sue - Johnny Cash
9. Little Woman - Bobby Sherman
10. Green River - Creedence Clearwater Revival
11. Hot Fun in the Summertime - Sly & the Family Stone
12. Sweet Caroline - Neil Diamond
13. Hurt So Bad - The Lettermen
14. Lay Lady Lay - Bob Dylan
15. Oh, What a Night - The Dells
16. This Girl Is a Woman Now - Gary Puckett & the Union Gap
17. I'd Wait a Million Years - The Grass Roots
18. When I Die - Motherlode
19. Everybody's Talkin' - Nilsson
20. Suspicious Minds - Elvis Presley


The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1970

1. Patches - Clarence Carter
2. Ain't No Mountain High Enough - Diana Ross
3. Candida - Dawn
4. Julie, Do Ya Love Me - Bobby Sherman
5. Cracklin' Rosie - Neil Diamond
6. Don't Play That Song - Aretha Franklin
7. Lookin' Out My Back Door - Creedence Clearwater Revival
8. Snowbird - Anne Murray
9. War - Edwin Starr
10. I'll Be There - The Jackson 5
11. It's a Shame - The Spinners
12. Spill the Wine - Eric Burdon & War
13. Groovy Situation - Gene Chandler
14. In the Summertime - Mungo Jerry
15. (They Long to Be) Close to You - The Carpenters
16. El Condor Pasa - Simon & Garfunkel
17. (I Know) I'm Losing You - Rare Earth
18. 25 or 6 to 4 - Chicago
19. Look What They've Done to My Song Ma - The New Seekers
20. All Right Now - Free


The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1971

1. Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey - Paul & Linda McCartney
2. Maggie May - Rod Stewart
3. Go Away Little Girl - Donny Osmond
4. Superstar - The Carpenters
5. Spanish Harlem - Aretha Franklin
6. The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down - Joan Baez
7. Ain't No Sunshine - Bill Withers
8. Smiling Faces Sometimes - The Undisputed Truth
9. Thin Line Between Love and Hate - The Persuaders
10. Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get - The Dramatics
11. If You Really Love Me - Stevie Wonder
12. Take Me Home, Country Roads - John Denver
13. How Can You Mend a Broken Heart - The Bee Gees
14. I Just Want to Celebrate - Rare Earth
15. All Day Music - War
16. So Far Away - Carole King
17. Yo-Yo - The Osmonds
18. Sweet City Woman - The Stampeders
19. One Fine Morning - Lighthouse
20. Imagine - John Lennon


The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1972

1. Black and White - Three Dog Night
2. Back Stabbers - The O'Jays
3. Baby Don't Get Hooked On Me - Mac Davis
4. Saturday In the Park - Chicago
5. Everybody Plays the Fool - The Main Ingredient
6. Go All the Way - The Raspberries
7. Alone Again (Naturally) - Gilbert O'Sullivan
8. Rock and Roll Part 2 - Gary Glitter
9. Beautiful Sunday - Daniel Boone
10. Ben - Michael Jackson
11. The Guitar Man - Bread
12. Freddie's Dead - Curtis Mayfield
13. Nights in White Satin - The Moody Blues
14. Run to Me - The Bee Gees
15. Use Me - Bill Withers
16. Honky Cat - Elton John
17. Burning Love - Elvis Presley
18. Popcorn - Hot Butter
19. I'll Be Around - The Spinners
20. My Ding-a-Ling - Chuck Berry


The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1973

1. Brother Louie - The Stories
2. Say, Has Anybody Seen My Sweet Gypsy Rose - Tony Orlando
3. Let's Get It On - Marvin Gaye
4. Delta Dawn - Helen Reddy
5. We're an American Band - Grand Funk
6. Half-Breed - Cher
7. Higher Ground - Stevie Wonder
8. Loves Me Like a Rock - Paul Simon
9. That Lady, Part 1 - The Isley Brothers
10. Angie - The Rolling Stones
11. Touch Me In the Morning - Diana Ross
12. Ramblin Man - The Allman Brothers Band
13. Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting - Elton John
14. Keep On Truckin' - Eddie Kendricks
15. China Grove - The Doobie Brothers
16. My Maria - B.W. Stevenson
17. Free Ride - The Edgar Winter Group
18. Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight & the Pips
19. All I Know - Garfunkel
20. Top of the World - The Carpenters


The Top 20 As Of September 20th, 1974

1. Can't Get Enough of Your Love, Babe - Barry White
2. I Shot the Sheriff - Eric Clapton
3. I Honestly Love You - Olivia Newton-John
4. (You're) Having My Baby - Paul Anka
5. Then Came You - Dionne Warwicke & the Spinners
6. Nothing From Nothing - Billy Preston
7. Rock Me Gently - Andy Kim
8. You Haven't Done Nothin' - Stevie Wonder
9. Beach Baby - First Class
10. Tell Me Something Good - Rufus
11. The Night Chicago Died - Paper Lace
12. I'm Leaving It (All) Up to You - Donny & Marie Osmond
13. Another Saturday Night - Cat Stevens
14. Do It ('Til You're Satisfied) - B.T. Express
15. Skin Tight - The Ohio Players
16. Can't Get Enough - Bad Company
17. You Little Trustmaker - The Tymes
18. Jazzman - Carole King
19. Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd
20. Life Is a Rock (But the Radio Rolled Me) - Reunion

In "The Last Months In Vietnam" Operation Flashpoint campaign, one of the more difficult levels actually had "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" playing as you rode in the helicopter to the insertion point. It was pretty badass, and because I kept dying so many times I ended up hearing that song quite a few times...

[Backgammon]

Did you ever play Battlefield: Vietnam?

Buggy game with lots of problems, but damn was it cool to ride a chopper to a hotzone with the pilot blasting out vietnam tunes.

[dog_xinu]

Here is my experience in the last quarter century of playing RPGs... people (in general) dont like to play something that is too close to real life. They want to stretch their minds into thinking that this distant, not realistic alternate universe is what they want be in. Most fantasy is from the middle ages (duh!) but has dragons, elves, magic, and all this stuff that doesnt exist today. The SciFi side of the house, generally has similar things too. The only modern day (give/take 20 years) games that I know of is Recon (which I have played many times) and SpyCraft (or something to that effect - d20 system). I know there is probably more. As for Twilight_2000, that was a future-istic type game when it came out. Late 80s and stopped in the early 90s. But I guess on my specs that would be in the same grouping. So three out of how many RPGs out there?

Now I have played in a game that the GM wrote that was modern day. They would take RoleMaster/SpaceMaster (combined) and make a modern day version of the game but with magic. Or several D20 systems and merge them into a single game. Again today + magic.

as for Recon... we used to call it disposable heroes since characters are squishy. there are only 3 stats, no of which is intelligence (related). easy come and easy go. character creation once you got a hold of it was sub-10 minutes including all gear, history, names, etc.

I have read spycraft (or whatever the name is), never played it.

I have seen twilight_2000 being played (at a con) but never got the chance to play.


now for playing some sort of modern day game without magic (or with magic), take a game system that you know and mod it game. If you know D20, there is many books out there that can help. Modern day firearms book in D20 stats, etc. If you want to use SR4, you can if you take out the cyber/bioware/magic/etc. You can use the mechanics of the game, just a different set of skills/gear. or just modify the hell out of them. It just depends on how realistic you want to make it.

[Wounded Ronin]

Did you ever play Battlefield: Vietnam?

Buggy game with lots of problems, but damn was it cool to ride a chopper to a hotzone with the pilot blasting out vietnam tunes.

I was under the impression that Battlefield: Vietnam is multiplayer only? Is that correct?

[Dumori]

no I recall playing singal player.

[Wounded Ronin]

no I recall playing singal player.

In that case, I'll probably get a secondhand copy from amazon.com. I'd actually been holding off on buying the whole Battlefield series since I thought it was multiplayer only, whereas I usually prefer single player so that I can enjoy the scripting and game world the game designers have put together.

Actually, does anyone have any recommendations on whether Vietcong was a good game? How realistic was it? I might also get that off amazon.com.

[WearzManySkins]

WR
You may find the book Devil's Guard of interest if you can locate a copy.
Devil's Guard

I have read the first but been unable to read the following in the series?

The copy I read of the first in the series was signed by the author, and the owner of that copy knew the author personally.

WMS

[casarez]

I wonder how much it has to do with "Too close in recent history" as well as "The outcome wasn't as positive".

Its kinda odd, but Vietnam still has a wierd vibe here in the US. Its odd because when you look at other stuff: Any game that lets you fight Russians (Cold War era) or "Terrorists", or even the old standbys of German Nazis, you'd think the gaming industry isn't really that oriented to being sensitive to other cultures, but then you note that at least until recently WW2 games didn't really have FPS "shoot up Japanese soldiers", or shoot-up asians soldiers of anytype actually. I can't recall the last FPS that faced you against Japanese, Korean or Chinese soldiers.

Mercenaries/Mercenaries 2 is the closest I've seen to a game that lets you blow up soldiers that aren't just European ones.

Well there was:

Medal of Honor: Rising Sun - WWII Pacific
Conflict Vietnam
Men of Valor (Vietnam)

Just off the top of my head.

[Backgammon]

The Battlefield series can be played Single Player, but then you are playing the same stuff (capture the points) as you would in Multiplayer, except with crappy bots instead of real people. Multiplayer is a much better experinece, but I doubt anyone really plays BF:V anymore.

[Wounded Ronin]

The Battlefield series can be played Single Player, but then you are playing the same stuff (capture the points) as you would in Multiplayer, except with crappy bots instead of real people. Multiplayer is a much better experinece, but I doubt anyone really plays BF:V anymore.

Ah, see, there's the rub.

[Dumori]

really I though BF:V had signal player with a campaign. I know that the earlyer BF game had singal player BF:2142 is multi only. I know BF:V for the Xbox and singal player.

[Platinum Dragon]

I guess american game developers are a little worried that and RPG set in Vietnam would be seen as insensitive (wether it actually is or not). As to non-american game developers, it possibly just doesn't seem all that interesting. It seems like the western countries other than the U.S. don't tend to pay it anywhere near as much thought.

At least, that's the impression I get in southeastern Australia, anyway.

[Wounded Ronin]

I guess american game developers are a little worried that and RPG set in Vietnam would be seen as insensitive (wether it actually is or not). As to non-american game developers, it possibly just doesn't seem all that interesting. It seems like the western countries other than the U.S. don't tend to pay it anywhere near as much thought.

At least, that's the impression I get in southeastern Australia, anyway.

It's possible. In my experience one of the most satisfying Vietnam War games I've ever played, Line of Sight: Vietnam was a smaller release, even though it was ultra-awesome. A smaller studio might not be as worried about lasting PR damage. Also, the manual that came with the game was probably more pro-military when it told the backstory of the main character, since it specifies he got spit on by hippies, felt very motivated to go and perform special operations on the border of Laos after having returned to the US and after having felt out of place due to his prior experience in 'Nam, and things like that.

[hobgoblin]

if i where to guess, vietnam showed that usa could actually loose.

until then its been two world wars that was won by the usa allied side, and the korean war where things where worn down to a stale mate.

vietnam on the other hand was more or less retreated from and abandoned.

[Wounded Ronin]

if i where to guess, vietnam showed that usa could actually loose.

until then its been two world wars that was won by the usa allied side, and the korean war where things where worn down to a stale mate.

vietnam on the other hand was more or less retreated from and abandoned.

Those are reasonable statements, but how would that affect the existence or non-existence of Vietnam War RPGs?

[hobgoblin]

nobody feels like writing one where all you get is to be shot to bits and shipped home to be forgotten?

[PBTHHHHT]

Did you ever play Battlefield: Vietnam?

Buggy game with lots of problems, but damn was it cool to ride a chopper to a hotzone with the pilot blasting out vietnam tunes.

Did ya ever play the Battlefield 1942, Vietnam mod (before BF:V ever came out)? I forget the name to the mod but it was interesting, spent quite a few hours playing that mod. Can remember getting shot up before the chinook took off in those one maps *sigh*

[Wesley Street]

nobody feels like writing one where all you get is to be shot to bits and shipped home to be forgotten?

"What's the button to watch your best friend die, get hooked on drugs, and then return home to a country that hates you?"

There were several Vietnam War table-top games including Flashpoint Vietnam, Grunt, Hue, and Search & Destroy: Tactical Combat Vietnam 1965-1966 created in the 1970s and 1980s. Recon's the only RPG though it was created to be used with minis as well.

Vietnam was such a political and social clusterfuck for the US that to create an actual role-playing game based around it would be a hard sell. Even a World War 2 RPG game would be a tough one. Most RPGs are based around the idea of heroes vs. villains. The participants in real-life wars aren't so easy to break down into those particular categories, especially at the grunt level.

[Platinum Dragon]

I think the words 'political and social clusterfuck' neatly sum up the point I was trying to make.

I think it's just one of those things the US wants to forget (kinda like WW2 for Japan), though as time goes on people will regain an interest in it since it will feel less personal.

[hobgoblin]

and thats partially why people that dont learn from history is doomed to repeat history...

the other part is the hubris of youth, trying to prove that one can do what ones elders could not...

[Wounded Ronin]

I guess I'm just unusual in the stuff that interests me. "Political and social clusterfuck which people are still butthert over and which has laid the foundations for the modern American 'culture war'" sounds like something awesome to study, have opinions on, and write RPG rules for so that we can all play. Truth is stranger than fiction and I just feel like there'd be a lot more to play with there than with, say, elves in a forest that a fantasy author made up such that their existence is basically limited by that author's own personal imagination. There'd just be so much more details and meat from a complex situation in the real world than what even the most gifted author could make up.