Character Creation, How to make a character? Options

[Zolhex]

Is it in any way shape or form by the rules mandated you must build a character from the top down?

I.E.
You must first choose your metatype
Then you must choose your attributes
Then you must choose your skills
Then you must chooseyour knowledge/language skills
Then you must choose your qualities
And then and only then can you choose your resources?

I have been told this is true to the point that even the people in charge have been quoted as saying this is true.

[Cyntax]

Nope, I've had people suggest for a technomancer you -start- with Complex Form buys then move on.

[Jhaiisiin]

Sometimes creation will require you to start in different areas. Heck, sometimes a character idea for me springs from certain gear or spells or something, and so I build backwards to make sure I get the core of the character done. You're not required to do it in a certain order, but sometimes that's the best way. *shrug*

[ElFenrir]

Yeah, it's totally random, really. Sometimes I start with a basic concept and build, sometimes it's gear or fighting style...sometimes I see a picture or something that inspires me, and then I build however I feel(skills first, attributes first, etc). Whichever works, really.

[WearzManySkins]

I generally start with a concept then flesh it out as I go along, and inspirations sometimes occur too.

WMS

[Glyph]

It doesn't matter what order you do things, mostly, but Cyberware and Bioware's affects are spelled out more specifically on pg. 84. They affect Magic or Resonance (in other words, you have have an initial Magic or Resonance that you have bought, then the 'ware reduces it). And boosts from cyberware or bioware don't affect other aspects of character creation (cerebral boosters don't give you more free knowledge skills).

Me, I go back and forth a lot - stuff doesn't cost as much, so I go back and add some skills, or I need money, so I lower Edge by a point, and so on. It's not set in stone.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

This matters in the alternate systems, but not all that much in BP.

[Cain]

If you really think about it, it's just about impossible to create many characters following the prescribed layout. Magicians, Adepts, and Otaku, for example, are required to buy a Quality in order to be what they are. Because they need specialized skills and attributes, you end up having to buy Qualities first, then go on to other choices.

Character creation in SR4 involves a lot of back-and-forth. There really isn't a good example of character building in the BBB, and it's time-consuming, no matter how you look at it. So, really, there isn't any good order in which to do things. You're going to end up playing with a lot of fiddly bits, no matter how you slice it.

[kzt]

Come up with a concept or personality. Then buy stuff. For example, Biker magician.

[masterofm]

I personally think it is about tinkering. You start with a concept and then just tinker around until you find something you like. Then you tinker some more just to get that slight amount of tweak that most SR characters need... well depending on what you want I guess...

[Zolhex]

See I make my characters the same way bounce where I want as I find I need to in order to get what it is I am after in character concept.

I was told though that the books layout is set in stone (paraphraseing here) by the developers.

This is due to how I see magic/resonance and the effects of cyber/bio vs. what the current GM of our group see things.

YES I get it it's his game no problem with it, the issue is his argueement on why is all he said he would e-mail the devs and I was like whatever so I guess I'll see what if any answer he gets back. I know the devs are busy and questions like this are not of high priority as there are no rules that are in anyway vauge about this anywhere in the book. I.E. no where does it say something like your GM would have final say.

In my opinion the books layout for character creation was done the way it was cause they started at the top of the character sheet and worked there way down in first edtion why change now.

[Cain]

Just point out what I did: you can't create many character types that way. In order to make a magician, you need to buy the Edge first. If you assign attributes before you buy the Magician Edge, you can't go back and give yourself a Magic higher than 1. You can't buy any Awakened skills, since they all require you to have a Magic attribute, and you won't have that until you're a magician. Basically, you can't create the character.

[Glyph]

I think his biggest problem isn't the sequence, but how character creation handles Magic loss. Namely, you buy the Magic rating, then it gets lowered by cyberware or bioware. He's suggesting an alternate house rule in another thread, but his GM is taking the RAW position.

But I don't think one instance of something coming first means the entire sequence is set in stone.

Actually, purely by RAW (emphasis mine):

Players may purchase abilities in any order they choose, but we strongly suggest that you start by first selecting your character's metatype, and then by purchasing attributes.

[Cthulhudreams]

SR4 character generation without a spreadsheet causes herpes.

When you have a spreadsheet it doesn't matter because the trick maths works it out for you.

[KCKitsune]

If you really think about it, it's just about impossible to create many characters following the prescribed layout. Magicians, Adepts, and Otaku, for example, are required to buy a Quality in order to be what they are. Because they need specialized skills and attributes, you end up having to buy Qualities first, then go on to other choices.

Character creation in SR4 involves a lot of back-and-forth. There really isn't a good example of character building in the BBB, and it's time-consuming, no matter how you look at it. So, really, there isn't any good order in which to do things. You're going to end up playing with a lot of fiddly bits, no matter how you slice it.

See my response below Cthuludreams post.

SR4 character generation without a spreadsheet causes herpes.

When you have a spreadsheet it doesn't matter because the trick maths works it out for you.

Actually, I use Daegaan's character generator and it does all the math and calculations for me. Heck you can use it with Karmagen characters (just remember it doesn't calculate the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) karma cost properly, and it screws up the Complex Forms calcs pretty badly).

Daegaan's makes it is almost TOO easy to make characters! You have plenty of time to putz around with your character.

[Magus]

I think his biggest problem isn't the sequence, but how character creation handles Magic loss. Namely, you buy the Magic rating, then it gets lowered by cyberware or bioware. He's suggesting an alternate house rule in another thread, but his GM is taking the RAW position.

But I don't think one instance of something coming first means the entire sequence is set in stone.

Actually, purely by RAW (emphasis mine):

Glyph has nailed it on the head. I am the GM in question for Casazil. His standpoint is that a character at GENERATION can purchase his gear skills and his attributes then at some point during generation Awaken and purchase his Magic Rating without losing his magic rating due to already or previously installed cyber/bio/nanoware. I said that it was not possible that the influx of foreign material which hit essence always translates to a loss in your purchased Magic Rating. If you bought Magic at 5 (40 BPs) and had 1 point of Essence removed for Implants you now have a rating of 4.
Did I get that right Casazil?

[Tarantula]

Magus is correct as far as RAW goes. Either way, if he's your GM, thats how it is RAW or not.

[paws2sky]

Ah ha.

You can't apply a magical quality after you've deducted Ess (and Magic) for implants.

As far as I know, the only way to get around losing Magic from implants is to take Latent Awakening, which means the character won't be starting with any of your magical goodies, skills, etc. And, in fact, won't get any magical anything until the GM says so.

-paws

[masterofm]

You could take latent awakening and let your GM decide when to give you a magic of one.

[Zolhex]

First off Ilet me say I have NO issues with how Magus runs our games If I did i'm sure when I run the game i'd some woppers from him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

This thread was just to clear up that in no way, shape, or form does the book nor do the devs state you must build your character in the order the lists.

To others yes latent awakeing is one way to go not that it matters to my character as I'm the hacker with only 1.95 essence!

It was just something that came up in conversation with another player and was then asked of Magus who said no.

So Magus the question is not about magic and augmentations so much as it is about getting an answer as to you must build your character this way as you said I posted it here as I thought it would provide a faster response as well as view points from other players/GM's.

[Tarantula]

The book does say that you should try to follow the order of the steps as outlined, but once you're comfortable, you don't necessarily need to. You points to how you think it works if you go out of order are horribly incorrect though.

[DireRadiant]

If there is a sequence which lowers the cost for anything relative to the standard sequence, it's likely that the cost when the standard sequence is followed is the expected cost.

When order is important, then apply the standard order of operations. This applies to mathematical operations in general.

I think most of you have seen the classic

2 * 3 + 4 = ?

While you can choose the order that can give you the lower or higher number, there actually is a standard order of operations which gives you the standard expected result for this problem.

[Cain]

Actually, I use Daegaan's character generator and it does all the math and calculations for me. Heck you can use it with Karmagen characters (just remember it doesn't calculate the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) karma cost properly, and it screws up the Complex Forms calcs pretty badly).

Daegaan's makes it is almost TOO easy to make characters! You have plenty of time to putz around with your character.

I have Daegann's as well, and it's still time-consuming to come up with a character. You're still doing a lot of back-and-forth, and gear is still a hassle. I think he did a fine piece of work; it's the sheer fiddliness of the underlying system that's the problem.

I'll also add that saying a pen-and-paper system is good because you can use a fan-made computer program is just silly. By that logic, SR3 should be the greatest system out there, thanks to the sheer wonder that is NSRCG.

[Mäx]

I have Daegann's as well, and it's still time-consuming to come up with a character. You're still doing a lot of back-and-forth, and gear is still a hassle. I think he did a fine piece of work; it's the sheer fiddliness of the underlying system that's the problem.

I'll also add that saying a pen-and-paper system is good because you can use a fan-made computer program is just silly. By that logic, SR3 should be the greatest system out there, thanks to the sheer wonder that is NSRCG.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
I't takes a friggin half an hour to do a character in karmagen(except gear), there really isn't anything fiddly about the system.
Of course it takes a little longer if you don't have any idea what kind of a character your going to make.

[Cthulhudreams]

Depends how 'optimised' you want to be. Its eaking out that last 20% that takes alot of time because you need to be much more aware about what dropping from a 6 to a 5 can get you vs the 5 to 4 relationship etc.