Do you tend to up cyber the grunts in the book? Options

[sunnyside]

It's just something that's always bothered me, but especailly in 4th edition, with really cheap cyber.

For an example of what I'm talking about take the Red Samurai grunts. The text and their profesional rating indicates they are elite. And they have skill groups at a higher level than the PCs can start with.

But somehow in all that they couldn't come up with five grand for some cheap muscle replacement 2? Really? I mean when your job is to get shot at you'd think insurance might cover that drek. Maybe a little dermal plating? Heck I'd pay for that myself if I had a job like that.

Now I know society has issues with cyberware. So I don't give it to everybody, evne if they might have a desire and have the means to get it.

But I guess as a general rule there tends to be more cyber in my punks.


What do you think would be an appropriate amount? I use half of what I'd guess their annual salary would be as a rule of thumb. (Leitenants have been around longer and will have more if they're so inclined).

On that note I will also apply both "used" and "lower grade" modifiers to cyberware for the actual punk elements. Which means a quarter the price but I apply the essence increase twice. Not sure if that would be considered RAW or not.

[ElFenrir]

Hmm, I have a few thoughts on this.

Now, for rank and file redshirts....no. Combat drugs for them. Any cyber they have will be on their own money, and while I might say 1 in every 8-10 might have a bit of ware, it won't be many. (Mages are likewise rare in rank and file in my games. Then again, Mages are NEVER redshirts. They, IMO, are always more Elite.)

To give Red Samurai credit, they *do* start with Wired Reflexes. That IS a bit of money they put into them. (Wasn't it level 2)? With their good armor, decent firearm DP(I think it was what, a 9-10 base? +2 for a smartlink? With several guys gunning at you with 11-12 DP, even if your PCs are throwing more...that and numbers, and getting 3 IPs each, is dangerous enough alone, IMO.) Now, Im also in the school that 1 out of every bunch might well have that Replacement 2 and other stuff added. Skillwires I think are a very likely bit of cyberware in tons of corp folks.

Gangers? I tend to run as combat drug/cheap cyber(razors, spurs, some might indeed have smartlinks), and some lower-level muscle replacement. Better ranked gangers will have a bit more.

I tend to run ganger-challenges by sheer numbers; even with lower DPs, numbers can do a lot. With guards, i use a cross between numbers, home ground advantage, and plain tactics(and things like calling for backup, etc), to add to the challenge therein.

Naturally, I have some ''elites'' that are decked out in a sweet way, but if you get one of them after you, you did something terribly wrong.

[sunnyside]

The reds only have wired 1 and otherwise they just have a link and eyes w flare. Pretty cheap stuff.

[paws2sky]

I like to keep all my grunts identical, stat-wise. It makes life easier when I go to roll initiative, etc. Unless a group of grunts has a reason to be more buff (a gang of ork posers with muscle replacement, for instance), I generally leave them alone.

On the other hand, I'm all about buffing up Lieutenants.

-paws

[Wesley Street]

I avoid cyber/bio/nanoware with cannon-fodder grunts for simplicity and ease of play. Lieutenants will receive some simple bits (wired reflexes, dermal plating) as will plot essential NPCs, depending on the characters.

[ElFenrir]

The reds only have wired 1 and otherwise they just have a link and eyes w flare. Pretty cheap stuff.

Ah, misremembered.

Still, though....Reds come in groups, have good gear(armor, weapons), and stuff like that...and giving them smartlinks would be cake. A bunch of guys with Wired 1, good armor, and smartlinked guns(i'd give 'em links before loading them), with a couple ''elites'' among them with said muscle replacement and perhaps a couple other goodies(thermo vision, low-light, vision mag, etc), using good tactics and ground advantages, would be a real beating as it is, to be honest.

[Dashifen]

My grunts are often non-cybered, too. Or, I give them suites from Aug (or make my own) to try and represent the corp putting the same crap cyber in to the same crap grunts. As others have said, lieutenants and anyone who gets a name (prime runner or otherwise) get a little more focus from me, but that's about it.

[NightmareX]

For corp sec grunts it depends on the "level" of the unit - for just basic redshirts they get combat drugs and that normal gear (smartlink goggles etc). Elite units like the Red Samurai I tend to cyber a bit beyond the book description.

For organized crime, lower grade leg breakers might have a bit of cyber but likely not. Mid level soldiers on the other hand are likely tricked out decently. The rarely seen elite hit squads I go hog wild with (same with corp elite hitters).

Gangers tend to get little to moderate cyber, mainly the cheap stuff.

I always consider mages, hackers, technos, riggers, and (most of the time) adepts to be lieutenant level or individual characters (similar to ElFenrir's implication) that are (usually) as tricked out as makes sense for their financial situation (a corp wage mage would have more assets than a ganger mage) with their own Edge scores.

Addendum - I dislike the idea that all of society thinks cyberware is last year in 4th, so I tend to be more liberal with it. Bioware is generally only scene on "named" characters in my games, same with genetech.

[ElFenrir]

The Lone Star SWAT suite is actually not a bad suite to give to lieutenants. It has Wired Reflexes 1, the Smartlink, thermographic vision, flare compensation, and Plastic Bone lacing. So this helps their offense, defense, and overall utility. Now, for the ''Super Lieutenant'', IE, the Leader, you can easily upgrade this with a level or two of muscle replacement, or Wired 2.

The Urban Kshatriya with it's Cybereye 3 with flarecomp, low-light, smartlink, thermo, vision mag, VE2, Reaction Enhancer 1, Muscle Replacement 1, 2 retractable spurs and a biomonitor makes for a pretty good ganger or crime syndicate midlevel. Tack on a level of Wired 1 and you have a pretty nice setup, here.

[The Jopp]

I would actually give them EDGE to use to show their level of skill.

1 Edge: Basic grunt
2 Edge: Boss grunt
3 Edge: Officer
etc...

I can see these guys using Edge to act first in an initiative pass and AR bonuses in order to get the drop on a runner team.

[BRodda]

I tend to augment most grunts a little bit if they have corporate backing. I usually keep it all the same though and tend to keep it uniform through the corporation. However each of the corporations have a different configuration. Tends to make the runs a little more tactical. "Going against EVO, last run none of there guards had flare comp. Load up on the flash bangs."

Generally I budget 10K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for each threat level. That means that they might have cyber, or better armor or better guns. However they never have all 3. And of course they tend to have whatever the corporation makes. There is a reason why people hate making runs against Ares.

[The Jopp]

And of course they tend to have whatever the corporation makes

A very good rule of thumb to get people to fear the power of Aztechnology...

Bloodmages, Bloodspirits, High tech gear...

[KCKitsune]

Addendum - I dislike the idea that all of society thinks cyberware is last year in 4th, so I tend to be more liberal with it. Bioware is generally only scene on "named" characters in my games, same with genetech.

AMEN to THAT!!! Unless the "named" character is a Mage, Adept, or a Technomancer, I would say that they would get NO bioware as that crap is expensive and the cyber works just as well. Sure you might have a low Essence guy, but that would just make him more memorable.


Example

*Runner 1* Hey do you guys remember that Aztech Captain?

*Runner 2* Hell yeah I remember that asshole! He ripped my arm off and was beating FlashFry to death with it!

*Runner 3* If it wasn't for for that grenade that Mackie shoved down his throat we'd all be rat drek right now.

*Runner 1* What really creeped me out about that slot was the way he was smiling... God, that was fragged up!

[sunnyside]

Like a couple people mentioned I tend to equip all the guys the same except the Lieutenant. Just to much of a pain otherwise. But, say, adding muscle 3 to the red samurai is not a difficult thing to handle in game. I think "trivial" would describe the added difficulty.

Of course in terms of lethality the increase is not so trivial. However while I don't think runners should suck. That said with all too many GMs the runners can more or less kick an arcologies butt. No. Once the red samurai are attacking you it pretty much means you fragged up.


Heck this isn't Shadow Stand and Fight. Though again adjusting the difficulty level on elite troops is just a happy side effect. It's just mostly that if you have a unit of elite troopers who are incredibly skilled it just seems like they might be worth more investment than, say, a Honda Civic.

[sunnyside]

Like a couple people mentioned I tend to equip all the guys the same except the Lieutenant. Just to much of a pain otherwise. But, say, adding muscle 3 to the red samurai is not a difficult thing to handle in game. I think "trivial" would describe the added difficulty.

Of course in terms of lethality the increase is not so trivial. However while I don't think runners should suck. That said with all too many GMs the runners can more or less kick an arcologies butt. No. Once the red samurai are attacking you it pretty much means you fragged up.


Heck this isn't Shadow Stand and Fight. Though again adjusting the difficulty level on elite troops is just a happy side effect. It's just mostly that if you have a unit of elite troopers who are incredibly skilled it just seems like they might be worth more investment than, say, a Honda Civic.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I play with people who used to play D&D.

It's kind of hard to put in 'ware when they WILL cart around the body and cut out the 'ware and sell it. Or worse, keep it.

[Skip]

I have to agree with most of the people here. The only people with bioware in my games are usually people you aren't going to be fighting unless all goes south. Most corp sec is unmodified, but there are lots of them and they know how to call for help. The idea most of my games had was not to fire a shot, but then again I tended to like more steath based games. Cyber is more common on middle and upper class (where you'll also see some bioware), but most of it is not the type of thing a runner would find use for.

If your group gets in a fight that lasts more than 30 sec during a run, all you should be thinking about is getting out alive. Gang fights and bar fights are different matters.

I play with people who used to play D&D.

It's kind of hard to put in 'ware when they WILL cart around the body and cut out the 'ware and sell it. Or worse, keep it.

That's relatively easy to fix. First don't give them much for the 'ware, it's not like the stuff is in mint condition is it? Second, have the fixer refuse to deal with them or simply charge more for everything. If they ask why, have the fix tell them "I don't like dealing with you". Last but not least, have the star show up and start questioning them about that off-duty cop that was killed for his cybereyes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Chrysalis]

CRAZY EARL sits on the ground next to a

figure

sprawled in a chair.



CRAZY EARL

Hey ...

photographer! You want to take a

good picture? Here, man ... take

this. This

... is my bro.



CRAZY EARL lifts the hat which has

been, covering

the man's face. We see he is a dead N.V.A. soldier.





Laughter.



CRAZY EARL

This is his party. He's the guest

of honor.

Today ... is his birthday.

[BRodda]

I play with people who used to play D&D.

It's kind of hard to put in 'ware when they WILL cart around the body and cut out the 'ware and sell it. Or worse, keep it.

That is the GM's fault, plan and simple. If they have enough time to cart out the bodies, hunt town and destroy all the RFID tags, find a fixer who will buy the crap or a street doc to install it the GM has fucked up.

Let face it, even if they can get the bodies out and the tags erased without getting filmed or traced, how many people are going to see them unloading those bodies. Sure that doc won't rat you out, but his nurse might. Organjackers cut up and sell dead bodies and probably have no problem with selling the team out. And people tend to notice when people have a lot of new money or gear...

[Oenone]

Considering the Red Samurai can be sent in wearing the armour from Arsenal which gets a whole bunch of custom options like Strength upgrades etc I don't generally give them extra cyberware.

I'd have to agree with the general 'making generic guards have the same stat lines' comment which people have been using. Because it makes it so much easier.

Personally I rationalize them not having much cyberware as the Corps who hire the security forces are too cheap for licenses and implants which they might waste by dying and/or changing jobs (or worse still betraying you).

Runner teams, important NPCs and a few rare challenging groups sent if the party have done something stupid do however get the upgrade treatment.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

First don't give them much for the 'ware, it's not like the stuff is in mint condition is it?

Used modifier. Do it already.

Second, have the fixer refuse to deal with them or simply charge more for everything. If they ask why, have the fix tell them "I don't like dealing with you".

The GM Screw Song! (Sung to the tune of "Happy Birthday!")

Players hate GM screw
Players hate GM screw
It's completely arbitrary
And it blindsides them too!

Last but not least, have the star show up and start questioning them about that off-duty cop that was killed for his cybereyes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Sure, if the Star finds out.

That is the GM's fault, plan and simple. If they have enough time to cart out the bodies, hunt town and destroy all the RFID tags, find a fixer who will buy the crap or a street doc to install it the GM has fucked up.

Thank you for your wonderfully well-researched and considered opinion. I'm glad to know that I can always trust you to rule on situations that require an intimate knowledge of me, my players, my game, and the dynamics between then.

Did you ever consider, for example, that my players might simply cut off the relevant body part to avoid RFID trackers, have a tag eraser, or both? Or that the rigger has a few extra drones he specifically keeps to cart around corpses/body parts? Or even that there exists within my group a Loyalty 6 Contact who will handle that sort of thing no questions asked?

In conclusion, you're an idiot.

[BRodda]

Thank you for your wonderfully well-researched and considered opinion. I'm glad to know that I can always trust you to rule on situations that require an intimate knowledge of me, my players, my game, and the dynamics between then.

Did you ever consider, for example, that my players might simply cut off the relevant body part to avoid RFID trackers, have a tag eraser, or both? Or that the rigger has a few extra drones he specifically keeps to cart around corpses/body parts? Or even that there exists within my group a Loyalty 6 Contact who will handle that sort of thing no questions asked?

In conclusion, you're an idiot.

Ok, I'm an idiot. But can you clarify a few things for me.

1) They just cut of the relevent body part to avoid RFID trackers?
I'm assuming that you have a reason for the corps not spending the 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to put stealth RFIDs in thier cyber for some odd reason? Stealth RFID tags have a signal of 6 and tag erasers have to be within 1 cm of the tag to work. A stealth tag 2cm or more into a piece of cyber is safe untill they totaly dismantle it and clean it.

2) A Rigger with a dedicated corpse mover?
Ok, how big is that drone? Not arguing that they can't have one, but anything that can carry 1-2 bodies is goign to have to be the size of a steel lynx.

3) Loyalty 6 contact?
Ok, you must not have a problem with them doing this becasue you let them take the contact in the first place. I'll even assume that not only is the contact completly loyal, but so is every single person in that contact's employ. Still all it takes is the punk who bought that cyber to get busted and have the SN of the cyber matched up to the crime scene to have the contacts whole orginization busted by LS or the corp that got ripped off.


In short, its your game. Your players obviously love to loot and you decide to let them get away with it. Not any skin off my nose. It sounded like you were bitching about your players looting the bodies and you were looking for ways to stop them from doing that.

[KCKitsune]

1) They just cut of the relevent body part to avoid RFID trackers?
I'm assuming that you have a reason for the corps not spending the 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to put stealth RFIDs in thier cyber for some odd reason? Stealth RFID tags have a signal of 6 and tag erasers have to be within 1 cm of the tag to work. A stealth tag 2cm or more into a piece of cyber is safe untill they totaly dismantle it and clean it.

They might be using HERF gun in the drone (with the drone being hardened to resist... Hardening is VERY cheap!), and since most cyberware is unaffected, why not hit it with a HERF gun?

Most cyberware is also unaffected; RFID chips, however, are extremely vulnerable to EMP attacks.)

2) A Rigger with a dedicated corpse mover?
Ok, how big is that drone? Not arguing that they can't have one, but anything that can carry 1-2 bodies is goign to have to be the size of a steel lynx.

does the Drone have to be that big? Isn't it possible that the rigger put a surgery autosoft designed to REMOVE cyberware and then drop the meat? Sure this is going to get the 'Runners in hot water fast as they would be known as the Butchers of Seattle, but hey if they want the ware they're going to get it one way or another.

3) Loyalty 6 contact?
Ok, you must not have a problem with them doing this becasue you let them take the contact in the first place. I'll even assume that not only is the contact completly loyal, but so is every single person in that contact's employ. Still all it takes is the punk who bought that cyber to get busted and have the SN of the cyber matched up to the crime scene to have the contacts whole orginization busted by LS or the corp that got ripped off.

Why would the cyber still have it's Serial Number? If this group is going to these lengths, then they're going to remove those as well as the RFID tag.

[Skip]

Used modifier. Do it already.

Okay, good. Then no problem.

The GM Screw Song! (Sung to the tune of "Happy Birthday!")

Players hate GM screw
Players hate GM screw
It's completely arbitrary
And it blindsides them too!

I assume you as the GM don't like them doing it, and have told them as much. If not try that. If you have and they disregard you, then make sure they understand the consequences. Your fixer may not like getting involved with "cyberware recycling". Weapons or a contact for new cyber? Sure. Fencing corporate cred or some swiped data? Sure. Body parts? Ummmm, maybe not? It's like going to a local pot dealer and asking him to set up a contract killing - not really his line of work, and it might make him uncomfortable with you in the future. Your game may be different.

Sure, if the Star finds out.

This is the evil GM option. If a player will not stop something you don't want him doing, make it more difficult than they are willing to accept. This again assumes they know you don't like it. If you don't mind, neither do I.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I assume you as the GM don't like them doing it, and have told them as much. If not try that. If you have and they disregard you, then make sure they understand the consequences. Your fixer may not like getting involved with "cyberware recycling". Weapons or a contact for new cyber? Sure. Fencing corporate cred or some swiped data? Sure. Body parts? Ummmm, maybe not? It's like going to a local pot dealer and asking him to set up a contract killing - not really his line of work, and it might make him uncomfortable with you in the future.

Actually, they have a Street Doc Loyalty 6 who takes the stuff out, then ask a certain player's Loy 6 Fixer to find a buyer for "slightly used, no questions asked" cyberware. It works pretty well.

And while I don't like it, I don't dislike it more than I dislike not rewarding players who think creatively -- especially if they make an investment into doing that. So my solution, so far, is to just not have grunts with much cyberware besides basic eyes/ears/etc, which doesn't amke enough to make it economically feasible to do.