Used/old vehicles Options

[sunnyside]

There are old threads on it. But is there anything in the newer SR4 books that directly addresses this aside from the "used" price modifier in the BBB? Anything with maintenence?

If not do you bother with modeling used/old vehicles in any way? If so how? I'd like to do that in my game because.

1. Vehicles are freaking expensive (I'm looking at the tilt wing in particular)

2. It does add some character, and reasons for people to have decent piloting skills and mechanics skills.

I'm thinking

Applying the Gremlins quality to the vehicle at varying levels.

Requiring maintenence after every use. (Not exactly sure exactly how to work with that).

Part of the damage track being permanently filled in.

Maybe combine the last two there in that old craft take on damage after every use and mechanics work is just fixing that?

Anyone do something else? And advice on specific numbers I could use that could be fair?

[HappyDaze]

Realistically, it should be possible to get a used vehicle that is 'almost new' at about 75% of the listed price with no problems whatsoever. Sure, you don't get warrantees and such, but most runners are going to void those in no time anyway. However, adding this element of realism might make some GMs balk at the thought of their grungy runners getting such a cost break for no real performance issues, but that's life.

[CanRay]

"It burns a little oil, but other than that it's fine!"

[Sir_Psycho]

Give it some distinctive custom modification and then next time the team is at a rigger bar, they're have a "I'd know that ship anywhere!" Star Wars style moment where they are confronted by the proclaimed previous owner of the "second-hand goods".

[Jackstand]

Alternately, you could have a rival team working against them, during a run, one of which was the previous owner of the vehicle, and knows all of its tricks.

[ElFenrir]

I'd say it would be cool. If you want to get really in-depth, you could make a sort of point-system(like Lifestyles) that let you add/subtract things til it comes out to a total; and then base the price off that total.

Say you make up a list of flaws for the vehicle(worse handling, worse speed, worse mileage, gremlins, stinks of rotting corpse and can't get the smell out no matter what, car has AI that comes online every so often that's a cross between Tom Jones and Austin Powers), and each one of these takes off points. Likewise, a list of edges of sorts(modified with X, etc), to add points. Take the point total and get the cost of the vehicle. A totally ''like new, modified vehicle'' might well be even MORE than the listed price...when, meanwhile, a car with EVERY flaw above that I listed might well be about 35% of it's listed cost. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's in-depth, but it might make for something.

[sunnyside]

worse handling, worse speed, worse mileage

Hey those would work too and would be easy.

It would be fun if the thing was piloted by Max Headroom. But they'd probably just delete him. Though I guess a new pilot program would cost.

[CanRay]

That's why you make him an E-Ghost that resists attempts of erasure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

One of my group has a bike whose upgraded computer system has become a "Crash Pad" for E-Ghosts and AIs.

[Sir_Psycho]

Also, for something big like a tilt-wing, it might have been a slave transporter. Or maybe an "unofficial" military/corp craft that the higher-ups used to take joytoys/new recruits out into international airspace and do... unethical things to, and maybe toss them out to sea. Hello background count, and/or a ghost/specter presence. Ever read Catch-22? Maybe there was a snowden, and the background count from him bleeding to death at the hands of anti-aircraft shrapnel causes the Flashback quality at inopportune times. You're in a dogfight and then suddenly the rigger finds himself on his knees, with a young man, wild-eyed and bleeding to death cradled in his arms. To use another Catch-22 moment, maybe a person got caught in the rotor, and all of a sudden a spray of blood (maybe it's "real" or maybe it's just "imagined") manifests all over the cockpit windows. To use an even tackier Top Gun moment, maybe the previous pilot critical glitched an ejector seat test and suddenly the rigger (or other passenger) looks up and sees a pilot splattered across the roof of the cockpit. Composure test time. Maybe on a critical glitch the ejector seat fires and the plane is suddenly sans pilot!

Look at different lifestyle and even character negative qualities and see how you can apply them. Gremlins has been mentioned. Maybe it's got a shaky/bent wing, uneven rotor configuration and has a handling penalty to one particular direction of turning. Maybe make secret rolls to see whether the craft glitches and the landing gear jams at bad times. What about the spirit bane quality? A particular kind of spirit hates the vehicle. Maybe the craft was used to transport some nasty chemicals or even bioweapons. On the first flight the runner's find themselves having a sudden health emergency.

Maybe the previous owner was plugged in during the Crash 2.0, and his e-Ghost lingers within the vehicles systems. An AI could also inhabit, which might be annoying, or even all well and good until it's "owners" want it back. An e-ghost might refuse to let you fly until you put Creedence Clearwater Revival on volume 11. Or maybe just Immigrant Song over and over again. Or The Village People. Dead Disco Pilot e-Ghost! A young e-Ghost that constantly whines "are we there yet?" "I'm hungry!" and constantly re-plots the waypoints to take you to a mcHugh's drive-in!

I am so offering "discount" vehicles to my runners from now on. So many hilarious RP possibilities!

[The Jopp]

I think i added something like that in an earlier thread that one could use some of the modification rules from Arsenal in reverse.

Instead of boosting acceleration and speed you could lower it for the same cost as a discount (Hughes Stallion with lower Accel and Speed would save around...*calculates*

Engine Customization (Old crappy engine)
Speed reduction 20% - 13300
Acceleration Reduct 20% - 17500

Total: 30800

[DTFarstar]

USED VEHICLES
Th e vehicle prices given in this chapter and in the SR4 rule-
book are for brand-new vehicles. Runners who are low on cash, or
who simply prefer to pay certifi ed cred in a hard-to-trace transaction,
can go shopping for used vehicles instead. Th ough many sprawls are
fl ooded with used and abused cheap subcompacts, as a general rules
buying used takes more time simply because it’s not as easy as slotting
cred to a Matrix vehicle catalogue. Apply a +4 Availability modifi er
and a cost reduction between 20% and 50%, depending on how
“used� the vehicle is. “Used� is of course a term not only measured
in terms of years but also mileage and care. A 10-year old vehicle that
never left the garage and was kept in good shape might be worth
more than a 1-year old vehicle that spent most of its time on the
roads and survived a few run-ins with go-gangers. Th e gamemaster
determines the shape the vehicle is in, and is encouraged to be cre-
ative. (Perhaps the vehicle has damage that cannot be repaired, or is a
lemon that suff ers the equivalent of the Gremlins quality, p. 81, SR4,
applied to all Vehicle Tests.) Second-hand car dealers can be sleazy
folks, so runners are encouraged to bring their mechanic pal when
inspecting the ride. At the gamemaster’s discretion, non-functioning
vehicles can be purchased at an even cheaper cost, but would require
appropriate parts and an appropriate Logic + Automative Mechanic
Extended Test to return to working order.

In case someone missed that, but all these suggestions fall under what they put in the book, so... whatever.
Chris

[The Jopp]

Well, the rules in the book are very "up to the gm" with no clear lines on what i get for that price reduction at char gen. Most of the time when you do something at char gen there isn't any chance involved, it's rather clear cut in what i get for the money.

If i remove 10% of the cost of a car i want to know if that entails 10% lower acceleration, armour or body, perhaps lowered sensor or pilot. Not a "might" or "something is a bit worse"...

Then we have the +4 modifier to find a used vehicle since it is not as easy to find on the matrix...WHAT??? Second hand vehicles (at least cars) are a dime a dozen on the web today or at least in local newspapers. Sure, it might be harder to find a cargo helicopter or a combat drone but those are specialist vehicles.

[Cain]

To put this in the worst possible scenario, let's say that you want to acquire a used vehicle for Shadowrun Missions games.

One GM might allow you to buy a decent vehicle without too much hassle, at a sharp discount. However, when you travel to a different game, the GM might take a look at it and have a fit. Missions games don't usually pay out very much, so a new vehicle is quite a big reward.

Without some hard rules backing them up, it'd be hard to say if the original GM was being too generous or not. Or if the new GM is being too harsh. Considering how difficult it is to acquire the money for vehicles in Missions, some stronger guidelines might be in order.

[sunnyside]

In case someone missed that, but all these suggestions fall under what they put in the book, so... whatever.
Chris

Hurm. Well OK. So they do have rules for used vehicles. And the rules are "make up your own rules".

Now for fun RP I don't exactly have a problem with that. I just wish they'd given some rough guidelines. Like what they think a gremlins 2 vehicle should be worth for example.

What do you guys think?

The reverse vehicle modifications thing isn't a decent idea. Though it lets you drop the price through the floor awfully easy. In part I'd say that's because it's always harder to keep adding onto something. So maybe the reductions should be much less in price than the corresponding additions.

[Sir_Psycho]

Hurm. Well OK. So they do have rules for used vehicles. And the rules are "make up your own rules".

Now for fun RP I don't exactly have a problem with that. I just wish they'd given some rough guidelines. Like what they think a gremlins 2 vehicle should be worth for example.

They think it's worth 20-50%, that sounds like a rough guideline to me.

But seriously, I'm happy enough with the rules being flexible like that. If you're going to be GM'ing, it's unlikely you're going to be able to avoid making things up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Many GM's have different perceptions of game balance. On one hand, a GM might say "No used vehicles. You don't get discounts. Especially given that the Face will probably get a huge percentage off in negotiation anyway. Bloody pornomancers.", while another might think "Yeah, these vehicles are pretty expensive. Have a discount".

[CanRay]

Oh, the worst of it all...

You can't pick the colour!

[sunnyside]

Oh, the worst of it all...

You can't pick the colour!

Actually some bodywork issues might be a good price reducer. Especially damage or a rust problem that'll force them to replace it later.

What I'm still not sure of is how much stuff should reduce the price. I'll just wing it when the time comes I guess.

Though I'm thinking more of a reduction than 50%. More like reducing the price to 20% of list.

For cars that isn't unusual at all. Planes I think it's a bit rarer, but I think that has to do with the importance of planes not doing the equivalent of dying in the middle of an intersection.

Whereas to get the price down I don't have a problem with them flying the thing with enough gremlins that the rigger better keep his edge open.

[The Jopp]

Right, what do you people think about this idea then?

Used Vehicle Price List:

Handling: -2%
Pilot: -2%
Sensor: -2%
Body: -1% (Add Previous Percentage For Each Point)
Armor: -1% (Add Previous Percentage For Each Point)
Acceleration (Walking): -1%
Acceleration (Running): -1%
Speed: -0,1%

Handling Modifier: Each 10% Price Reduction Gives a used vehicle a -1 Dicepool For handling Tests
Max Reduction is 50% Regardless of how scrappy it is.
Price reduction is done AFTER vehicle modifications are added as the vehicles attributes affect the whole vessel.

Note: In the case that you find a SUPERIOR vehicle in some regard (improved handling for example) double the percentage reduction and add that as a cost instead (+1 handling would give a price increase of +4% instead).

Note: Each reduction/improvement of armor or body will also increase/decrease acceleration as the mass of the vehicle will be changed. Stronger body and armour will make the vehicle slower and vice versa.

Example:
Below we have a run down mercury comet with the sensor electronics ripped out and software/hardware for Pilot programs removed. It got a few years on it and have a nice collection of rust, needs bodywork and the engine is rather crappy...But it has racing stripes...

Handling: 0 (0%)
Pilot: 0 (4%)
Sensor: 0 (2%)
Body: -4 (10%) (1+2+3+4)
Armor: -3 (6%) (1+2+3)
Acceleration (Walking): -5 (5%)
Acceleration (Running): -5 (5%)
Speed: -40 (4%)

Total Reduction: 36% and +3 to handling

Here is a lighter version of the Hughes Stallion Helicopter:

Handling: +4 (+16%)
Pilot: +1 (+4%)
Sensor: +1 (+4%)
Body: -7 (-28%)
Armour: -3 (-6%)
Acceleration (W): +5 (+10%)
Acceleration ®: +5 (+10%)
Speed: +60 (+6%)

Total Cost: +16%

We now have a faster, lighter and more nimble cargo helicopter, but more expensive.
This system allows us to modify vessels in order to create a variety of vehicle types from the same base vessel.