My PC's are living out of an Airplane, How the hell do I price their lifestyle Options

[toturi]

Once you start dropping planes on your enemies I would imagine that the status quo which keeps Runners safe vanishes in a puff of smoke because it quickly becomes everyone's best interest to put down these rabid mutts. Sure there is going to be infighting amongst the various factions but that doesn't mean the Runners are going to survive the crossfire.

It'd depend actually. It would depend on the people who own those planes and the enemies you drop them on. Certainly the more you do with the plane the more noise is created, but whether that noise is loud enough to create a response strong enough to actually find it is subjective. But if you don't do anything with it, then the plane ceases to be of use.

[Kronk2]

Sorry for the dupe post.

[Kronk2]

A few things to clarify:

1: "Various Means" = Pwnd a Mitsuhama strike team with a bulldozer
-----

Killdozer!!!

[Kronk2]

Draining fuel and dropping a plane out of the sky could get you in SERIOUS trouble. You don't know who you are going to piss off with stunts like that. Personally you knock over a plane and drain it's fuel and then drop it on someones head expect to probably destroy or take something that will probably get a AAA sending multiple teams and shadow runners at you. If not you are destroying millions and millions of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on a constant basis and dropping it on whoever you don't like. Expect to get thor shotted after you do like 10 million in damages (a.k.a. 5-10 planes.) Doing stuff like this splashes the pond a little too much I would think in a SR setting.

a modern 787 costs 146.0 MILLION USD Boeing plane prices Taking down one would land you on any company's shit list even if it is insured.

[toturi]

a modern 787 costs 146.0 MILLION USD Boeing plane prices Taking down one would land you on any company's shit list even if it is insured.

Perhaps. But that's assuming they hit the same AAA or AA corp for all those flights. If they were smart and hit non-AA/AAA planes and targeted different carriers at different places at different times, then maybe not. Particularly if they purged the flight recorder data or any other sources of useful data to the owners before dropping the planes off. We don't know enough to make any judgement.

[Adarael]

Satellites today can read your license plate without fail.

Not unless you keep your plates on TOP of your car, they can't. No sat camera, no matter how good, can aim at an angle low enough to read a plate. That's just basic geometry + atmosphere, and it's likely to stay that way for many a year.

[CanRay]

a modern 787 costs 146.0 MILLION USD Boeing plane prices Taking down one would land you on any company's shit list even if it is insured.

Yeah, their premiums will increase a drekload!

AND if they get it back, then they have two 787s, one from the Insurance Money, and one that was rightfully theirs in the first place.

And they get revenge. And send a message. And stay in the Black in the accounting ledgers.

The only way the group can get away now is to be worth more than 146 Million USD (About 30 million (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) worth of trouble. Then it becomes fiscially irresponcible for the Megacorporation to continue after you, as it would be a lost gain.

Gotta keep the Shareholders happy and making a profit!

[masterofm]

The funny thing is you think things will be insured. How can a AAA corp insure itself? That makes no sense. It will want to get it's resources back, or at least kill those responsible. I don't really think when you go to the very highest ups that they have no insurance but their own, which is the kind that kills all those responsible for creating mass havoc so they don't lose face. The corporate world in SR to me is like a tank of canablistic parannas and any sign of weakness shown will mean all the other AA's who are jockeying for position will try to take you down so that they can get a seat on the corporate court. Don't show weakness you are corporate paranna chow.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The funny thing is you think things will be insured. How can a AAA corp insure itself? That makes no sense.

Of course it does - like insurance companies themselves are insured.

That means that the insurace will try to get the plane back... at least as long it's cheaper as simply paying up.
And it seems like they are way past that point...

[CanRay]

Crown Corporations are insured, and they're owned by the Goverment. Don't mistake Mitsuhama for owning everything.

They don't.

They own COMPANIES that own everything, that way they can move at one removeal away and insure things if nothing else.

[masterofm]

I thought powerful corporations were their own separate entity that governments hold no sway over them, or are even allowed to enter corporate property without express permission from a AAA. I thought it would be like saying does the government now a days have insurance? Not really but they have enough money and resources to replace a smashed toy. I thought the only thing AAA's are held accountable to in SR is only the corporate court. I thought that A's and AA's can get insurance, but AAA's can only really fall back on themselves since most governments SR setting are pretty weak.

There are Ares planes... there are also Ares subsidiary planes which is different. Ares is not the government though. They are not owned by the UCAS or the Cal Free. There are a few AAA's that are part government part company. Aztechnology is the first that springs to mind, but when you are that high up on the pecking order you generally don't have other companies insure your planes especially if they are pretty much their own government.

[Rad]

Jeez, people get so pissed off--you'd think we were trying to take over their world, not our group's campaign world.

I don't get all this personal offense people are directing toward our group. Just because we accomplished something spectacular doesn't mean we cheated or that our GM was being too nice, it was a combination of luck, strategy, and a lot of things coming together just right.

The facility was located at the bottom of a quarry pit, in the midst of a rating 2 toxic background count. It was narrow, secluded, and hard to spy on--probably why MCT chose the place. We jammed the airwaves the moment we saw the cameras, and blew the place sky high when we left. Our mage got killed, and all biological traces were burned out with white phosphorus grenades. All MCT knows is that somebody broke in, and that the place blew up. They don't even know that we escaped, or that the plane isn't lying in pieces in the rubble somewhere. There were a bazillion technomancers and an AI being studied there so MCT doesn't even know that we were responsible for the jamming, and they're probably more interested in recovering those than us and our plane.

(The AI's with the alliance now, the TM's are dead.)

Our sniper took out one engine of the skytrain with a Barret, not a LAW, so the damage was minimal. The pilot made an emergency landing at the bottom of the pit, and we patched it up enough to limp off to an airfield afterward. Our fixer would die for us, so he's not selling us out, and we were damn careful and extremely lucky on our mechanics rolls, so we got set up and out of Seattle in a big hurry.

As for us beating the strike team, the tominos lost to lucky/careful shots and we rushed the strike team the moment they left the plane and kept them pinned down so they couldn't spread out. We lost two team members: our mage and physad, and our sniper got shot up. Actually, the mage's backup character got fragged too--his ghost popped up as a free spirit and got disrupted with mana static and concentrated weapons fire. This wasn't easy, we were just luckier and had better tactics.

We all changed ID's, left the hemisphere, and never go out without disguises anymore. We covered our route, and stuck to uninhabited areas and the open ocean whenever possible. We hardly ever use the plane anymore, just to keep people from knowing we have it.

Most runners are content to do the jobs that come their way and scratch out a living without disrupting the status quo--we saw an opportunity and ran with it. With the Hong Kong situation, we got a hold of a highly incriminating vid-chip of one of the guys who runs the city, and instead of blackmailing him or selling it off to 9x9, we're doing both and launching a plan to surreptitiously gain control of several city-run utilities and businesses--including the only official airport. 9x9 is supporting this, so there's no fear of reprisal there, and our target would have to A) find us and B) survive the web of sniperdeath we will have tightened around him before making our move. If worse comes to worse, we'll take him out before he can tip anyone off and take control of the facilities without his help.

We'll keep them running like normal, but the proverbial "guy on the inside" will be our clean side identities owning the fragging place.

The bottom line is that we haven't cheated, and neither has the GM--yet. It sounds like he's planning on breaking that truce and pulling a Deus ex Machina on us. I really hope not.

So far it's all just been fun. Nobody's been trying to disrupt his plans, it's just been working out that way. If the GM's got a problem, he should talk to us about it--and if he's got a brilliantly evil plan of his own, he should bring it. But dropping a handwaved TPK on us would introduce an animosity that neither of us wants to see at the table.

My character isn't the problem, he's actually pretty poorly built. I understand the rules better now, and I'm not getting any dumber. Unless Matsci goes overboard and vetos every build that isn't a retard, my next character's going to be just as conniving and better designed to boot.

Let's not go there, eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Barrett's do not merely damage a airframe engine.

As for the rest......never mind.....

WMS

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Jeez, people get so pissed off--you'd think we were trying to take over their world, not our group's campaign world.

Perhaps it's simply incomputable to them that people can play an epic game and have loads of fun doing so.
Or rather, they don't want you to have fun playing an epic game - because they can't.

[Matsci]

Jeez, people get so pissed off--you'd think we were trying to take over their world, not our group's campaign world.

I don't get all this personal offense people are directing toward our group. Just because we accomplished something spectacular doesn't mean we cheated or that our GM was being too nice, it was a combination of luck, strategy, and a lot of things coming together just right.

The facility was located at the bottom of a quarry pit, in the midst of a rating 2 toxic background count. It was narrow, secluded, and hard to spy on--probably why MCT chose the place. We jammed the airwaves the moment we saw the cameras, and blew the place sky high when we left. Our mage got killed, and all biological traces were burned out with white phosphorus grenades. All MCT knows is that somebody broke in, and that the place blew up. They don't even know that we escaped, or that the plane isn't lying in pieces in the rubble somewhere. There were a bazillion technomancers and an AI being studied there so MCT doesn't even know that we were responsible for the jamming, and they're probably more interested in recovering those than us and our plane.

(The AI's with the alliance now, the TM's are dead.)

Our sniper took out one engine of the skytrain with a Barret, not a LAW, so the damage was minimal. The pilot made an emergency landing at the bottom of the pit, and we patched it up enough to limp off to an airfield afterward. Our fixer would die for us, so he's not selling us out, and we were damn careful and extremely lucky on our mechanics rolls, so we got set up and out of Seattle in a big hurry.

As for us beating the strike team, the tominos lost to lucky/careful shots and we rushed the strike team the moment they left the plane and kept them pinned down so they couldn't spread out. We lost two team members: our mage and physad, and our sniper got shot up. Actually, the mage's backup character got fragged too--his ghost popped up as a free spirit and got disrupted with mana static and concentrated weapons fire. This wasn't easy, we were just luckier and had better tactics.

We all changed ID's, left the hemisphere, and never go out without disguises anymore. We covered our route, and stuck to uninhabited areas and the open ocean whenever possible. We hardly ever use the plane anymore, just to keep people from knowing we have it.

Most runners are content to do the jobs that come their way and scratch out a living without disrupting the status quo--we saw an opportunity and ran with it. With the Hong Kong situation, we got a hold of a highly incriminating vid-chip of one of the guys who runs the city, and instead of blackmailing him or selling it off to 9x9, we're doing both and launching a plan to surreptitiously gain control of several city-run utilities and businesses--including the only official airport. 9x9 is supporting this, so there's no fear of reprisal there, and our target would have to A) find us and B) survive the web of sniperdeath we will have tightened around him before making our move. If worse comes to worse, we'll take him out before he can tip anyone off and take control of the facilities without his help.

We'll keep them running like normal, but the proverbial "guy on the inside" will be our clean side identities owning the fragging place.

The bottom line is that we haven't cheated, and neither has the GM--yet. It sounds like he's planning on breaking that truce and pulling a Deus ex Machina on us. I really hope not.

So far it's all just been fun. Nobody's been trying to disrupt his plans, it's just been working out that way. If the GM's got a problem, he should talk to us about it--and if he's got a brilliantly evil plan of his own, he should bring it. But dropping a handwaved TPK on us would introduce an animosity that neither of us wants to see at the table.

My character isn't the problem, he's actually pretty poorly built. I understand the rules better now, and I'm not getting any dumber. Unless Matsci goes overboard and vetos every build that isn't a retard, my next character's going to be just as conniving and better designed to boot.

Let's not go there, eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I've just got an evil plan, that caches you between a rock and a hard-place. Fortunately, you have a plane.

As you have pointed out, the people you work with aren't the most moral people in the world, Mr send a truck full of exploives into downtown Hong Kong. I don't have a Deus ex Machinae planned. Just some Deus Ex.

Most of my bluster post above is what happens if you manage to do everything wrong. Judging by the evil plans you guys come up with, not only will the situation get turned around, you guys will end up profiting. you always do.

[merashin]

Our sniper took out one engine of the skytrain with a Barret, not a LAW

sorry, i died in the first few moments, to a crit glitch dodge, then walked into the other room till my backup showed up, so i was fuzzy on how we took it down

[Matsci]

sorry, i died in the first few moments, to a crit glitch dodge, then walked into the other room till my backup showed up, so i was fuzzy on how we took it down

Wasn't the Law used on one of the Cyborgs?

[WearzManySkins]

Well I am guessing here but some of us at least do not run NPC's as "Red Shirts".

If that play style is enjoyable for you and your GM, so be it. But do not post about here, and expect not get some hide taken off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[merashin]

Wasn't the Law used on one of the Cyborgs?

i think so

[Ravor]

I have to agree with WearzManySkins, unless something got lost in the translation the battle recount has a feel of a slapstick skit, and the limbed airplane doesn't help matters.

[Matsci]

I have to agree with WearzManySkins, unless something got lost in the translation the battle recount has a feel of a slapstick skit, and the limbed airplane doesn't help matters.

It wasn't so much slapstick as the GM rolling horrible, and the players rolling well. I really don't believe in fudging dice, so sometimes players die, sometimes they wipe the field. It doesn't help that one of my players just happens to distort probability around himself.

[masterofm]

No Rad I'm sorry but you are taking it the wrong way. Our views are conflicting with yours so you are viewing us as "pissed off." It's not that most of us are pissed off we just think the situation sounded stupid with the information we were given. Calling something stupid does not instantly mean I'm pissed off or offended. It's an internet forum for crimminies sake we might as well have a blowing hot air at each other competition for all the good it does. I'm sorry but the way I view SR is obviously not the way you and/or your group views it. From what I have sat down and read fluff wise your GM let you off easy. Is that ok? Maybe not for me but in the end it's not my table and I'm not the GM. Seems like more offense was taken on your end then it ever was on mine thats for sure.


My first point I will bring up however is there are no ghosts in SR. When you die in SR you are dead dead. No ghosts allowed by RAW mate. That whole free spirit thing goes totally against the entire universe of SR. I mean the two things SR specifically talks about, and sadly is totally contradicted in the 1st person shooter game... but the less said on that the better, is that people do not come back from the dead and no teleporting period. Your GM just broke cardinal rule #1 so in my eyes that takes away some of the validity to saying you are playing a totally legit SR game. Is this ok? I don't see why not if thats the way you guys want to play it. Am I pissed? Pfft... on an internet forum? Hell no.

The second is that the repair rules are also given in "whatever the GM feels like" time increments so the fact that you got "really lucky" was actually your GM letting you get away with that. Or that part of the rule book was not looked up or known at the time the plane was repaired. Sometimes it takes more then a tool box to be able to repair a damaged engine when you crack said engine block with a .50 cal depleted uranium armor piercing bullet or maybe it doesn't and you can fix it in a combat round or a handful of minutes with a spanner, some bubble gum, and a toothpick.

The third point is although jamming is awesome, if a camera is a closed circuit feed it does not matter how hard you try to jam or send a spoofing signal it just won't do anything. A closed node is a closed node. Also in my eyes I find it hard to believe that they didn't have some of their camera and vid feed that didn't funnel information off sight just a few miles away in a secret hardened bunker. Best not to have all of your eggs in one basket just in case someone takes a truck full of plastic explosives and blows the crap out of the basket. Then again this is just what I would do laying down the groundwork for a run like this.

On a side note: If you think an AI is going to join your alliance just because you set it free among the world.... well the minute it touches the matrix you might have just opened an extremely large can of worms. It might have totally lied to you so that you would let it out of its cage. Maybe not, but it's something your characters or GM should think about. Might even cause another matrix crash. Also what AI is this that you released? Did you just release a Deus shard? If so guard your loins and prepare for pain. I have also taken the time to write this because I believe these are things your GM might want to take into consideration the next time your players decide to be tricky maybe try to be tricky back in a more subtle way instead of let's send in the crazy cyborg strike team. Yet in the end it's totally arbitrary and who the hell cares. Make them all superheroes, or set the scene during the middle ages for all I care. Not my table and not my GM.

[toturi]

Yet in the end it's totally arbitrary and who the hell cares. Make them all superheroes, or set the scene during the middle ages for all I care. Not my table and not my GM.

The players should care. Evidently they are having fun. Their GM isn't running completely by the RAW, but that is his decision to do so and the RAW supports the GM coming up with his own house rules and his interpretations of it. Some people are into sado-masochism, they like their GM to stick it to them in the name of "realism". Other people have their fun in a different way.

The GM isn't asking us to give him our opinions on how he ran his campaign, he is simply asking us to provide suggestions on how to calculate lifestyles. If he had asked for an opinion on his running style, I would have comment on how some things might not be completely RAW; as it is, he didn't.

[psychophipps]

I would call it a "High" lifestyle and requiring an airport or other dedicated aircraft landing area. You would need access to a dedicated repair facility as jet engines are a bitch to keep running, you also need a cleared area to land safely that is clear of debris as sucking anything you blow up off the road or a building in the sprawl will FUBAR the selfsame engines, and access to a Hugh Jass fuel farm to keep those gas-guzzling jet engines into fuel.
Then there is the hundreds of man-hours annul inspection to stay licensed (let alone the phased inspections every 25 flight hours or so), the bi-annual flight review by the dully-qualified instructor hired by the FAA-equivalent, the beacon updates, the mortgage on your insanely expensive aircraft, hangar rentals, repairs and inspections, the fact all parts have a street index of 5 vs. automobile parts, licensing fees based upon usage and pilot experience/training, the fact that not having this stuff done is a great way to have a seriously pissed off series of Federal Agencies popping a financial cap in your ass for fines starting in the hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not a literal one if you get froggy when they show up), etc., etc.

Oh yeah, I used to work at an airport for a FBO...

[masterofm]

Exactly. Yet this is Dumpshock and if topics didn't get wildly off topic it wouldn't be Dumpshock. They can run it any way they want, but people are going to comment on it especially if they feel a curve ball comes into play. There was very little situational instance given, so when more information came into play that is when people had an opinion. If the situation had been described in more detail then just "my runners live in a plane" it would have probably had a different response. In the end there are lifestyle mods in arsenal for living in a vehicle, which could have answered this question days ago.