OK, I'm ready to bind a force 12 spirit., Now how do we kill it if it goes free? Options

[masterofm]

Damn you Flying Spaghetti Monster! DAMN YOOOOU!! *Strikes dramatic pose*

[Cain]

Cain you have flatly failed to comment on the part of the rules that say point blank "horrors caused taint" all over the place. You'd think if suffering also caused taint it would say, you know, somewhere. You also flatly failed address the examples of areas that are negative for suffering, but positive for horrors having the highest taint. Wham bam done cause == horror, cause != suffering.

Dude, you have flatly failed to respond to the fact that's been repeated, several times: Horrors only cause Taint when they're causing suffering, or polluting an area. We know that Horrors in Shadowrun can cause Astral Hazing, so it's shouldn't be a surprise that they can in Earthdawn.

lol way to use your conclusion in your argument. You are inventing 'horror aspecting' out of whole cloth inorder to make {damage+mark for raw casters} the same thing as less magic or force on contact. Aspecting doesn't exist in ED (to my knowledge), if it did it would give horrors more mana increasing some step or stat of theirs, which it doesn't. stop making stuff up.

You clearly know the ED rules better than I do, so I'm wondering exactly how it is that you don't know that Horrors can aspect an area just by being there. Horrors come in all shapes and sizes, but they can also mimic the polluting powers of Blood spirits and Toxic spirits. If they can do it in Shadowrun, they could do it in ED, right?

here you didn't even bother to make something up. But hey it's pretty tough to twist 'People casting raw magic' into 'everything magic', especially when the one that targets 'everything magic' is supposed to be weaker and cruder.

"Primitive magic"= easier to interfere with. According to canon, prior to 2011 magic *did* work, it was just that it worked infrequently, and required huge rituals to pull off the simplest effect. So, the more "primitive" the magic, the easier it was to interfere with.

What you are going to do is fail to comment on how areas without beings to suffer can have the max taint. Yes, I did use not knowing of suffering causing taint to coraborate my claim, but I base my claim based on horrors causing taint with out causing suffering.

Once again: we *know* that Horrors can have Astral Hazing. We also don't know if the Horrors are causing suffering near their own homes; but since they feed on suffering and pain, it makes sense that they'd be feeding near their homes.

The rules say horrors cause taint without mentioning suffering, and never mention suffering without horrors causing taint. I'm making an inferance about a game world based on RAW.

Wrong. By the example you posted, in two out of three examples, it says explicitly that the Taint is caused by Horrors causing suffering. It also correlates them; the more suffering caused, the more Taint you have. So, saying "horrors cause taint without mentioning suffering" is completely wrong.
Now, you're going to point to the third example, which doesn't explicitly mention suffering. However, since Horros cause a lot of suffering when they spend a longer time in one place, it *implicitly* says that the Horror is causing pain and suffering, to make its home nice and comfy. Causing massive amounts of strife is the Horror equivalent of a huge plate of nachos and a fridge full of beer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Now I will readily admit that taint and background count are thematically related, just not mechanically related. If that's enough for you to call them the same thing, cool. It isn't for me.

When you look at it, Shadowrun and Earthdawn aren't mechanically related at all; they're only thematically related. When you try and draw parallels between the systems, you shouldn't try to make a lot of mechanical references, because it's the thematic ones that really make the difference.

[WeaverMount]

>Dude, you have flatly failed to respond to the fact that's been repeated, several times: Horrors only cause Taint when they're causing suffering, or >polluting an area. We know that Horrors in Shadowrun can cause Astral Hazing, so it's shouldn't be a surprise that they can in Earthdawn.
You only think I haven't addressed this because you have preconceived and incorrect idea's about the setting, and can't hear my point. Parlainth and the Wastes are uninhabited there for there is no suffering. They are also some of the most corrupt locals written up. Therefor it is the horrors and not the suffering causing taint.

>so I'm wondering exactly how it is that you don't know that Horrors can aspect an area just by being there.
Hallelujah, he's seen the light! This actually the crux of my argument. Horrors can taint an area just by being there, no suffering required!

>Horrors come in all shapes and sizes, but they can also mimic the polluting powers of Blood spirits and Toxic spirits. If they can do it in Shadowrun, they could do it in ED, right?
could you point me to where blood and toxic spirits are related to horrors, and where they have hazing? I'm a SR4 kid, and think that cyber zombies are the only thing that cause hazing.

>Once again: we *know* that Horrors can have Astral Hazing.
Once again you are using your conclusion in your proof. You correctly take it that horrors make taint. You then falsely assume that taint = bc and swap them. from that faulty premise you conclude that horrors must have astral hazing. Then you site the "fact" that they have astral hazing as evidence that taint is bc.

>When you look at it, Shadowrun and Earthdawn aren't mechanically related at all; they're only thematically related.
I've been wondering what your glitch has been, and I think this is it. Taint feels like back ground count to you and you are smart enough to square this circle to your own satisfaction.

>When you try and draw parallels between the systems, you shouldn't try to make a lot of mechanical references, because it's the thematic ones that >really make the difference.
... filling the same nitch in the stories doesn't make them the same exact thing. Thera and Aztlan are both "The far off scary magic territory with blood magic and human rights violation". Hell I'm pretty sure Thera has some impressive pyramids. Are you trying to tell me that Thera is Aztlan because theme is all that matter?

I'm not saying that Trolls aren't Trolls because the two versions have couple discrepancies, don't think for a second I'm demanding literalism across systems. Both version of trolls are big, and physically deft, and have similar fluff, that's enough. I don't need ED to try to put in reach just for trolls or some such BS. But don't go around telling me that SR trolls are the same thing as Obsidian, even though they have different origins and abilities, but do share a theme, and magic works different now so they COULD be the same thing.

[Cain]

Hallelujah, he's seen the light! This actually the crux of my argument. Horrors can taint an area just by being there, no suffering required!

Except your own quotes say that it's linked to suffering and pain. You're still hanging onto the one quote that doesn't explicitly say they need to cause suffering to create Taint.

could you point me to where blood and toxic spirits are related to horrors, and where they have hazing? I'm a SR4 kid, and think that cyber zombies are the only thing that cause hazing.

Look up Harlequin's Back and the Dragon Heart trilogy. In both, the connection between blood spirits and horrors is clearly shown.

Now I was flipping through Street Magic, and discovered a Toxic metamagic that causes a background count. Wanna know what it's called?

Taint. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

It's on p143, SM. So, we've got something that looks the same, feels the same, and even has the same name. I'd say that pretty much closes the case.

[WeaverMount]

About the taint meta magic, I don't feel that an going with an obvious foil of a name proves much if you aren't groping around for support.

--
Ok, so I managed to ... acquire ... the source book for the Blood Wood.

I was pretty sure that the Blood Wood would be the proving ground what with centuries agony and blood magic, and (functionally) zero horrors.

Similar in some ways to the corruption caused by the horrors, the astral space of the Blood Wood is polluted with wisps of dark energy...

Similar does not mean the same thing.

Where as in other parts of Barsave, the the type of region is based on the degree and kind of Horror activity that took place in the area

This says specially that it takes horrors to make taint. Even if it takes horrors causing suffering (causing suffering + Evil magic ~= horror activity) to make taint, horrors are still the critical part.

The horrors never got into the blood wood so raw casters don't risk marking. For balance reasons they take extra damage

The direct quote was spread out over two paragraphs.

The gamemaster may allow the corruption of astral space to cause other types of effects rather than damaging magicians.

The GM is encouraged to make the corruption of the blood wood different from taint proper.

I finally got two of main points in black and white. Horrors not suffering cause taint. Corruption caused by suffering and blood magic, and taint are different things. Taint and 'Background Count' also do different things. They are definitely related, but taint is not just just horror aspected BC. If taint was BC, they wouldn't have two sections devoted to how they are different.

[Cain]

Similar does not mean the same thing.

Oh, come *on*!

This says specially that it takes horrors to make taint. Even if it takes horrors causing suffering (causing suffering + Evil magic ~= horror activity) to make taint, horrors are still the critical part.

Nope, sorry. It's pain and suffering that makes the difference, even in the section you cited.

The GM is encouraged to make the corruption of the blood wood different from taint proper.

Optional rules are usually not allowed as support for a mechanic.

I finally got two of main points in black and white. Horrors not suffering cause taint. Corruption caused by suffering and blood magic, and taint are different things. Taint and 'Background Count' also do different things. They are definitely related, but taint is not just just horror aspected BC. If taint was BC, they wouldn't have two sections devoted to how they are different.

It's not black-and-white. So far, all you've said is Horrors + Suffering = Taint; that does not disprove Suffering = Taint/Background Count. You need to show something that explicitly states that Horrors are required for Taint, and Taint-like effects. I'll grant that Taint may be aspected Background count, to favor Horrors; but otherwise, it's basically the same thing as Blood Wood, only without Horrors.

Now, have you ever heard the saying: "If a bird looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"? We have something that looks the same thematically, works in a reasonably similar fashion given the different systems, and even has the same name! You can quack now, if you like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[WeaverMount]

>It's not black-and-white. So far, all you've said is Horrors + Suffering = Taint; that does not disprove Suffering = Taint/Background Count.
I can't remember the last time I encountered selective reading this strong. I have given you two examples of horrors causing taint without suffering. The wastes and parlainth. I have horrors without suffer causing taint. You do not have suffering alone causing taint. I'll stop trying to be comprehensive sense it just give you more stuff to get wrong. I'll make it simple for you.

Please address how the wastes are THE MOST corrupt part of the setting w/o any suffering

[Cain]

Please address how the wastes are THE MOST corrupt part of the setting w/o any suffering

Isn't that the home of Horrors? And haven't we established that Horrors can cause astral hazing, as well as access to the Taint metamagic? To use Shadowrun terms, they're creating a domain, aspected for them.

Now, your turn. Please address the fact that every example of Taint you've provided is related to either pain, suffering, or "Horror activity" (which may or may not include pain and suffering). Now, please show us how suffering is not enough, when Taint-like things happened in the Blood Wood, caused by the suffering of the elves.

[WeaverMount]

Isn't that the home of Horrors? And haven't we established that Horrors can cause astral hazing, as well as access to the Taint metamagic? To use Shadowrun terms, they're creating a domain, aspected for them.

.... I asked you to show me the suffering you maintain is necessary. You come back horror powers. Isn't that my point? I don't even have to bother shooting this down (again).

--

>Now, please show us how suffering is not enough, when Taint-like things happened in the Blood Wood, caused by the suffering of the elves.
I've said they are related. You claim they are the exact same thing. Identical phenomenon don't need multiple sections of text to tell them apart, and don't do different things.

Also there is no taint in the city of Throal. Do you feel the mosty likely explanation for that lack is that nothing nasty has ever happened in one the setting's largest metropolises?

Also unbreached kears are Safe. All were created, and many maintained for 400 hundred years with blood magic sacrifices. 400 years of sacrifice. No taint.

[Skip]

Weaver, think about what creates background count, not just "something nasty", but real torment and suffering. So one would assume most cities would not have a background count, nor would a kaer. Sacrifice is not suffering, and the artisic and communal activities of cities and kaers actually help reduce the disruptions to the asptral plain.

Look at toxics, bugs and cyberzombies, they all do the same kind of thing a horror does, to a lesser extent. Whether that is because of their natures or because of the pain and suffering they tend to cause to all around them is a matter of debate.

You can also argue that the taint, while similar to other types of background count is different because the horror causes the astral hazing that aspects the astral to itself. But I cannot understand how you can say that background count is not related to taint. Taint may be a subset of background count, but I can think of no rationale way to separate the two concepts.

Remember that ED takes place just after the reopening of the Kaers, so the metahumans haven't had the time to cause much real or seperate background count. Bloodwood has something similar in the RAW, just not taint, IIRC.

[Cain]

I asked you to show me the suffering you maintain is necessary. You come back horror powers. Isn't that my point?

No, your point is that Horror powers are the only way to cause Taint. Unfortunately, you're wrong; Blood Wood shows Taint-like effects without the presence of Horrors.

I've said they are related. You claim they are the exact same thing. Identical phenomenon don't need multiple sections of text to tell them apart, and don't do different things.

There's several sections on background count in SM. Domains and Toxic zones are both subsets of background count, even though they're not identical, they have different sections of text to tell them apart, and do slightly different things.

Also unbreached kears are Safe. All were created, and many maintained for 400 hundred years with blood magic sacrifices. 400 years of sacrifice. No taint.

I don't have an ED book to look at, so I can't tell you about Throal. However, as Skip pointed out, sacrifice isn't the same as suffering; and background count doesn't have to take over the whole kaer anyway. It can be very localized.

[WeaverMount]

>Bloodwood has something similar in the RAW, just not taint, IIRC.
That's my whole point. Taint is not EXACTLY the same thing as background count.

>I cannot understand how you can say that background count is not related to taint.
I have said it is verbatim.


---

No, your point is that Horror powers are the only way to cause Taint. Unfortunately, you're wrong; Blood Wood shows Taint-like effects without the presence of Horrors.

Strike two on answering a direct question. You maintain that suffering is requirement of taint and not horrors. Please explain the Wastes.

[Gast]

Employ one of these characters certain people on parties are always telling me about. They should be able to handle this just fine.

[Cain]

You maintain that suffering is requirement of taint and not horrors. Please explain the Wastes.

Don't have a book handy, but you've missed the point. Taint is just a subset of Background count. Mechanically, the work about the same way, both in Earthdawn (Taint/Blood Wood) and in Shadowrun (Taint and Toxic zones).

If you can't explain the Wastes, and want me to do it for you, please quote the relevant section here, as I don't have an ED book handy.

[Wasabi]

Could a moderator please split the Earthdawn chat tangent into its own thread? Its relevant to SR4 but the tangent train has left the station...