OK, I'm ready to bind a force 12 spirit., Now how do we kill it if it goes free? Options

[The Jopp]

Adept
Killing hands
Elemental Strike
Maxed Cyberarm - Redlined
Maxed Unarmed
Martial art skills

Say STR12 cyberlimb
Martial arts +4 damage
Penetrating strike -3 armour

Elemental strike ignores immunity so it has 12 armour that is halved to 6 and then to 3 and the base damage of the limb will be 10P

Added to that we have a sustained iproved initiative on the cyberadept and he is in an ambush position to attack the spirit...

[Stahlseele]

summon force 6 spirit, let it possess you to boost you up, THEN summon Force 12 spirit? O.o

[The Jopp]

Cant spirits assist in spellcasting and suchlike with their force.

Waitaminute...

Summon F12

Spend one spirit service and have it AID the summoner in the binding ritual.

[crizh]

I'm just wondering wether an aspected domain increases or decreases the power of spirits summoned by a magician of the same tradition?

It would give the Spirit a DP mod equal to rating to any test involving Magic.

Spirits resist Binding with Force, RAW.

[apollo124]

Cant spirits assist in spellcasting and suchlike with their force.

Waitaminute...

Summon F12

Spend one spirit service and have it AID the summoner in the binding ritual.

Pretty sure it says in Street Magic that spirits don't have to aid (or won't aid) in their own binding rituals. Also that spirits can have any magical skills except summoning related skills.

[crizh]

Pretty sure it says in Street Magic that spirits don't have to aid (or won't aid) in their own binding rituals. Also that spirits can have any magical skills except summoning related skills.

I'm pretty sure you can't use the Aid Sorcery service for any sort of Conjuring test.

[apollo124]

What, casting a spell is different from conjuring a spirit? No way! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Other ideas for killing a mad Force 12 spirit:

Lead it on a (hopefully short) wild goose chase astrally into Aztechnology corp territory or most any other megacorp territory.

Get together an initiate group and do a combined metaplanar quest to either destroy the spirit or gain its' true name.

Or the cheaper but way longer haul....Have your mage initiate repeatedly, only raising his magic attribute max and then raising his magic as high as he can get it, until a Force 12 spirit is merely a trouble and not instant death.

[Jaid]

20 drain will probably mean unconsciousness and therefore potentially berserking spirit, even if you have 12+ magic to convert it to stun (and a whole lot of physical overflow, most likely).

you would need to have something to keep you conscious long enough to send the spirit back to the metaplanes or you're still pretty much gonna die =P

[Cain]

Once again, if you're facing 20P drain, burn edge and get yourself a critical success. You're going to end up burning that Edge anyway, on an Escape Certain Death, since 20P is enough to completely kill your character.

[crizh]

Once again, if you're facing 20P drain, burn edge and get yourself a critical success. You're going to end up burning that Edge anyway, on an Escape Certain Death, since 20P is enough to completely kill your character.

I've been wondering about that. Can you buy a critical success on a Damage Resistance Test? It doesn't have a Threshold and even one net hit is a success. Similarly what happens if you buy a critical success on a Stealth test? The number of hits required for success vary from observer to observer many of whom have not observed you at the point you burn the point of Edge....

[crizh]

On Topic.

A Mine.

Find, drill or Shape (Material) a shaft 600m deep/long. Create a chamber at the end big enough for your spirit. Lay a fibre-optic line to the outside and then fill in the shaft.

The mage can use mage-sight goggles (and possibly a telescope) to Summon the Spirit into the chamber and Bind it there. If he mucks up, cap the fibre, and leave.

Pressing through the Earth from there is going to be an Extended Magic + Charisma (600, 30 mins) Test.

It'll take over two days to escape assuming it doesn't get lost...

[Cain]

I've been wondering about that. Can you buy a critical success on a Damage Resistance Test? It doesn't have a Threshold and even one net hit is a success. Similarly what happens if you buy a critical success on a Stealth test? The number of hits required for success vary from observer to observer many of whom have not observed you at the point you burn the point of Edge....

I'm not sure how it works on Stealth tests, but on a Damage Resistance test, your goal is to soak all the damage. Since a critical success is defined as 4+ successes over what you need, it's pretty clear that the damage would be reduced to zero.

[Muspellsheimr]

On a Stealth test, burning Edge for a Critical Success means you will always have 4 Net Hits over the observers, regardless of how many or few hits they get; depending on who is looking for you, you may only have 4 Hits, or as many as 20+. The exact number of hits is irrelevant, and would change as the observer's change.

If one of your observer's decides to burn an Edge to spot you, you then resolve your Stealth vs. Perception test normally (for that specific observer - you still have 4 Net Hits over everyone else).

[crizh]

I'm not sure how it works on Stealth tests, but on a Damage Resistance test, your goal is to soak all the damage. Since a critical success is defined as 4+ successes over what you need, it's pretty clear that the damage would be reduced to zero.

I'm not sure the wording of Critical Success supports that position, I suppose you could define the damage as your 'opponent.'

It's not very well worded. Shock.

On the other hand you must have a DP at least equal to the number of boxes of Drain you're trying to soak. You can't buy a Critical Success if you have no hope of succeeding.

[Cain]

I'm not sure the wording of Critical Success supports that position, I suppose you could define the damage as your 'opponent.'

It's not very well worded. Shock.

On the other hand you must have a DP at least equal to the number of boxes of Drain you're trying to soak. You can't buy a Critical Success if you have no hope of succeeding.

That's not necessarily true. If you spend Edge, the dice explode, allowing you to have a theoretically unlimited number of successes. When you burn Edge, we can assume that the dice exploded.

[crizh]

That's not necessarily true. If you spend Edge, the dice explode, allowing you to have a theoretically unlimited number of successes. When you burn Edge, we can assume that the dice exploded.

Can we? You know what happens what we start to assume?

By that 'logic' there is nothing that you have no hope of achieving because you could always roll an infinite number of sixes.

You're reading stuff into the rules that they don't say. Certainly not explicitly.

You only get exploding sixes on certain uses of Edge. All uses of Edge describe exactly what extra dice, re-rolls or exploding dice you do or do not get. The description of Burning Edge for Critical Success is silent on all of these matters.

[The Jopp]

May i suggest a tap of the main powerline connected to a Tesla device that at the flick of a switch will send a veryveryvery high current through the location of which the spirit occupies?

Not sure what the power of lightning does in damage code but it should be well above that of F12 lightning bolt...

Add the elemental effect and its immunity is moot.

Also, foci. lots of foci for drain.

Use a logic based tradition - dwarf or exceptional attribute
Fetish for summoning (+2D6 for drain)
Biware to boost logic (+2D6 for drain)
Focused Concentration (+2D6 for drain)

Power foci to offset magic loss from bioware.

[Rasumichin]

you would need to have something to keep you conscious long enough to send the spirit back to the metaplanes or you're still pretty much gonna die =P

Thanks a lot, you just helped me discover the only useful application for the adrenalin pump!
I think it's actually the only way to stay conscious when your stun track has been filled out.


Okay, you need a Magic of at least 12 to keep the drain from getting physical, but besides that, it works.



As far as drain stats are concerned, under normal circumstances, i'd go for a dwarf with cerebral boosters as well.
These aren't normal circumstances, however, i think we need more drastic measures...

The best would be an elf following a charisma-based tradition with sustained Increase [both drain stats] spells.
If we assume a truly maxed-out mage, with one Exceptional Attribute and Metagenic Improvement, along with genetic optimization for both drain stats, the maximum unmodified DP would be 26 ( 11(16) for CHA + 7(10) for WIL ).
This would include casting a Force11 Increase Charisma spell, but if we're already trying to bind Force 12 spirits, why not?
Just make sure you cast the Force7 Increase Willpower spell first and you can already throw 21 drain dice.

And no, all that does not include mentor boni and foci.

[Rasumichin]

The best would be an elf following a charisma-based tradition with sustained Increase [both drain stats] spells.

I have to correct that : in fact, the best would be a pixie or nosferatu.

Edit : and of course, all three would have to be changelings with at least class II SURGE.

[crizh]

[whispers]

Uh, Eagle Shifter?...

[Rasumichin]

[whispers]

Uh, Eagle Shifter?...

That's...30 dice max.
Wow.
Impressive.

[Icephisherman]

Why in the hell did you do this in the first place?

Shadowrunners are in the business of living, remember?

[crizh]

Add in Centering and a Centering Focus....

The thing is that after a certain point Drain stops being meaningful. Because spellcasting is F/2+x, when Force greatly exceeds 2x, Force isn't such a big factor in the final Drain code. Force only increases the maximum number of hits for spellcasting so beyond a certain point it exceeds what you can reasonably expect to get from a humans Sorcery Dice Pool.

Trouble with Binding is that Drain scales quite differently. A spirit has a max of 4 Dice per point of the Magicians Magic stat. So for every 3 points of your Magic you can expect to suffer 8P in Drain. Your Magic is uncapped but Skill and DP mods start to run out at about 18 Dice. After Magic 6 Binding Max force Spirits gets more and more unbalanced in favour of the Spirit.

It's x+18 vs 4x. You can see how that's going to play out...

[Krule]

My suggestion... Don't.. but if you have to... either wait until your at least level 6, Initiate with 12 Magic... and the Centering Metamagic, to reduce drain further... or get a group of mages/adepts to back you up.

If you want to try something this suicidal from the get go, however, I suggest starting the game with a Spirit Pact, or trying to hunt down a level 12 Free Spirit, and starting a Magic Pact with the thing... however, there are other options.

A few Foci might help, as could a few anchor spells.

Alternatively, hunt down the Spirit Formula for a level 12 Free spirit, then you only have make the Binding Test, though... concidering how hard that is, and how ticked the Free Spirit will be when/if you fail... plus the shear number of powers a Force 12 Free Spirit is going to have... this might be concidered more suicidal then the summoning.

[Cain]

Can we? You know what happens what we start to assume?

By that 'logic' there is nothing that you have no hope of achieving because you could always roll an infinite number of sixes.

You're reading stuff into the rules that they don't say. Certainly not explicitly.

You only get exploding sixes on certain uses of Edge. All uses of Edge describe exactly what extra dice, re-rolls or exploding dice you do or do not get. The description of Burning Edge for Critical Success is silent on all of these matters.

Yeah; like several applications of Edge, it's not properly thought through.

But there are plenty of things you have no hope of achieving; you just need to rely on other rules, and not massive amounts of successes. You can't shoot a satellite out of orbit with a pistol, because the pistol doesn't have the range to do it. If your Magic is 6, you have no hope of summoning a Force 20 spirit, Edge or no Edge.

Given all that, rolling 20 successes on a Drain test isn't impossible. If they spend even one Edge on the test, it's within the realm of possibility, even if it's improbable. I've seen enough improbable rolls come up in games to not let things like this bother me. I've personally rolled over thirty successes on a roll, although admittedly I had 20 dice to start with, before I spent Edge. And in that game, I was one of the unluckier players.

When it comes to Burning Edge, I personally am very flexible on this rule. After all, they're essentially sacrificing a stat in order to succeed. That amounts to the same thing as if they spent Karma. Thus, their character is going to be handicapped, since all the other players will be spending their karma to improve, instead of spending it to catch up. That's just me, though. As always, YMMV.