So a Sasquatch can't speak or understand spoken language..., WTF? Options

[Wesley Street]

Then I guess he shouldn't be considered a vocalist and instead an imposter. Since, obviously, he must be mimicking something he heard exactly due to a complete and total inability to understand and learn spoken languages.

Since when is understanding what noises you're making a requirement to be a vocalist? A good high school friend of mine was an immigrant from South Korea. When I first knew him he could barely put three words together in English; but he could sing the theme-song to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in perfect pitch and even in proper intonation and emphasis. He obviously had no idea what he was saying but he liked the melody.

All that's required of a vocalist is that he make music with his vocal cords. Sasquatches are natural mimics. Hence, a sasquatch can be a vocalist.

[Tarantula]

The a lingua sasquatch.

All I could find was a lingua franca. I'm not sure if thats what you were referring to. Can you be more elaborative?

[Tarantula]

Since when is understanding what noises you're making a requirement to be a vocalist? A good high school friend of mine was an immigrant from South Korea. When I first knew him he could barely put three words together in English; but he could sing the theme-song to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in perfect pitch and even in proper intonation and emphasis. He obviously had no idea what he was saying but he liked the melody.

All that's required of a vocalist is that he make music with his vocal cords. Sasquatches are natural mimics. Hence, a sasquatch can be a vocalist.

Except, that sasquatches are, as you said, mimics. They can't be a vocalist, they can merely copy one perfectly.

[Ol' Scratch]

Let me clue you in on a little something Doc: the people that wrote SR4? Most of them are not the ones writing things now. The ones who are writing SR right now like to be consistent, which means not forgetting about rules from the main book just because we might personally have gone a different way. M'kay? So saying things like "you guys" is a bit insulting, because most of the gals and guys writing now had zero input on SR4 to begin with, and we're not looking to do another edition anytime in the foreseeable future in which to try out our own ideas as regards basic rules for y'all to grill us on. So if you're unhappy that Sapience is currently classified as a critter power, I and the current crop of freelancers are most definitely not the ones to voice your complaint to.

You're quite rude yourself in a number of posts. Usually ones that are nothing but an insult with no actual contribution to the conversation taking place. Example #1 and Example #2 from this thread alone. So get off your high horse.

That said, the use of "you guys" was a collective whole. I don't give a damn who was responsible for it. It's a goofy, redudant, needless thing to constantly keep referring to. Espsecially if you're just going to turn around and make exceptions and write it off after referring to it. "It's a critter power. The critter loses all their powers. Oh, wait, nevermind they get to keep this one. Despite losing their powers. Because, uhm. Hey look, an elephant." That's about how it comes across when I read it. And, sorry, but it's not consistant. If it were, every character in the game -- Humans, Elves, Players, Contacts... everyone -- should have it on their character sheet as a critter power. That, of course, doesn't get treated like a critter power. Despite it being one. Because, uhm. Oh look, an elephant.

Since when is understanding what noises you're making a requirement to be a vocalist? A good high school friend of mine was an immigrant from South Korea. When I first knew him he could barely put three words together in English; but he could sing the theme-song to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in perfect pitch and even in proper intonation and emphasis. He obviously had no idea what he was saying but he liked the melody.

That was exactly my point. He was an imposter copying someone else's work, not his own. He's little more than a glorified lip syncher, not an artist, not a vocalist.

[Tarantula]

That was exactly my point. He was an imposter copying someone else's work, not his own. He's little more than a glorified lip syncher, not an artist, not a vocalist.

I'd say more like a glorified recording.

[Wesley Street]

Except, that sasquatches are, as you said, mimics. They can't be a vocalist, they can merely copy one perfectly.

The definition of a vocalist is "someone who sings." Originality isn't necessary to be a vocalist. If one opera singer copies another perfectly it doesn't make him less of a vocalist. Just a perfect mimic/imitator. If a parrot were sapient it would be a vocalist as it imitates human singing. Saying a person who plays the guitar exactly like Jimmy Hendrix without understanding how the instrument works isn't a guitarist wouldn't make sense.

Guitar + fingers = guitarist
Vocal chords + singing = vocalist

[hobgoblin]

All that's required of a vocalist is that he make music with his vocal cords. Sasquatches are natural mimics. Hence, a sasquatch can be a vocalist.

or a walking sound synth for that matter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Academy_(film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Winslow

[Tarantula]

or a walking sound synth for that matter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Academy_(film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Winslow

Totally stealing that concept, right now!

[Wesley Street]

He's little more than a glorified lip syncher, not an artist, not a vocalist.

Someone who lip syncs moves his mouth to canned music and makes no noise. A vocalist makes music. An artist creates a work of art. Period. It doesn't matter if it's original music/art or not. It is what it is. Originality doesn't fit into the equation unless you use that as a measurement of how "good" a piece is, which is purely subjective.

You're quite rude yourself in a number of posts. Usually ones that are nothing but an insult with no actual contribution to the conversation taking place. Example #1 and Example #2 from this thread alone. So get off your high horse.

Would you chill out? He wasn't being insulting to anyone in those posts.

[Tarantula]

Someone who lip syncs moves his mouth to canned music and makes no noise. A vocalist makes music. An artist creates a work of art. Period. It doesn't matter if it's original music/art or not. It is what it is. Originality doesn't fit into the equation unless you use that as a measurement of how "good" a piece is, which is purely subjective.

So, printers are artists? They create exact duplicates of paintings people have done, which is art. So does that make a printer an artist?

Does it make a speaker an artist, they can reproduce the sound a person made exactly, just like a sasquatch. They're fancy speakers, thats it.


I see it more of a they don't have a voice of their own, no "this is ME" sound. But they can reproduce any sound they ever heard, and thats why they don't talk.

[Ol' Scratch]

Only problem there is that quite a few people in this thread are saying a Sasquatch can't learn or speak a spoken language because they are completely and utterly incapable of understanding what they're hearing. Which, in turn, means they are completely and utterly incapable of using their Mimicry power to do anything but make random sounds at random times. So while they can copy a police officer saying "Halt, this is the police!" they lack the ability to understand anything about that phrase except, possibly, it's a sound you make when you meet someone new. But even that implies a sense of understanding, which negates their inability to learn what they're hearing.

In other words, all Sasquatches must come across as having a severe case of Tourette Syndrome for that argument to hold any water.

[Wesley Street]

So, printers are artists? They create exact duplicates of paintings people have done, which is art. So does that make a printer an artist?
Does it make a speaker an artist, they can reproduce the sound a person made exactly, just like a sasquatch. They're fancy speakers, thats it.

Are you talking about a printer as in a person who runs a print shop or a the piece of hardware attached to a computer?

If you want to get into a "what is art" discussion, yes a printer can be an artist if he directly copies a piece of art and hangs it in a gallery. I've seen it happen. The intent is to be "edgy, post-modern, critical" or what have you. I don't like it but I won't say it isn't art because there is intent behind the action just as much as there is a final tangible product. That's part of art. And, yes, I graduated from art school. Just because a sasquatch doesn't know what he's saying doesn't rule out he doesn't enjoy the melody or the act of singing/being a vocalist. He's sapient, not a Mister Microphone, which means he has something resembling human emotions even if he can't communicate them without technical assistance.

[Wesley Street]

Only problem there is that quite a few people in this thread are saying a Sasquatch can't learn or speak a spoken language because they are completely and utterly incapable of understanding what they're hearing. Which, in turn, means they are completely and utterly incapable of using their Mimicry power to do anything but make random sounds at random times. So while they can copy a police officer saying "Halt, this is the police!" they lack the ability to understand anything about that phrase except, possibly, it's a sound you make when you meet someone new. But even that implies a sense of understanding, which negates their inability to learn what they're hearing.

Mimicry isn't a random ability. Like I said before, non-English speakers can sing songs in English without understanding their meaning. Understanding the words isn't relevant. The reaction that the words get is all that matters.

[Tarantula]

I mean a printer like a xerox copy machine. Take your artist stick figure of yourself. Hit copy. Boom, exact duplicate. Is it art from the printer or the person?

Sasquatch, hears person singing. Decides he likes the sound of it and mimics it. Boom, exact duplicate. Is it art from the person he heard, or himself?

[Wesley Street]

Sasquatch is sapient. Xerox copy machine is not. If I gave my art to a person to trace, the person who traced created a new piece of art. If there's an intelligent middleman in the process it's still art. If there's no sapience, intent and/or intelligence in the process, it's not art.

[Ancient History]

That said, the use of "you guys" was a collective whole. I don't give a damn who was responsible for it. It's a goofy, redudant, needless thing to constantly keep referring to. Espsecially if you're just going to turn around and make exceptions and write it off after referring to it. "It's a critter power. The critter loses all their powers. Oh, wait, nevermind they get to keep this one. Despite losing their powers. Because, uhm. Hey look, an elephant." That's about how it comes across when I read it. And, sorry, but it's not consistant. If it were, every character in the game -- Humans, Elves, Players, Contacts... everyone -- should have it on their character sheet as a critter power. That, of course, doesn't get treated like a critter power. Despite it being one. Because, uhm. Oh look, an elephant.

And like I said, it wasn't my call in the first place. The Sapience power exists, and it's not going to be quietly swept under the rug until at least next edition. Deal.

That was exactly my point. He was an imposter copying someone else's work, not his own. He's little more than a glorified lip syncher, not an artist, not a vocalist.

Go google "Musique concrete." Maybe the sasquatch has vocalizations beyond its magical mimicry milieu that it can make. If you shoot a sasquatch, does it not scream?

[Wesley Street]

If you shoot a sasquatch, does it not scream?

The all-sasquatch cast of Shakespeare in the Park would make for fascinating role-playing.

[Tarantula]

Sasquatch is sapient. Xerox copy machine is not. If I gave my art to a person to trace, the person who traced created a new piece of art. If there's an intelligent middleman in the process it's still art. If there's no sapience, intent and/or intelligence in the process, it's not art.

Fine, synthetic intelligence inside the printer copies the stick man perfectly. Did the AI make his own art? Or is it just a copy of the art the person who drew it did?

[HappyDaze]

If you shoot a sasquatch, does it not scream?

I don't know. Does it? Perhaps it can only magically mimic the screams of another - but it might not understand the difference between pained screams and orgasmic bliss...

[ThreeGee]

All I could find was a lingua franca. I'm not sure if thats what you were referring to. Can you be more elaborative?

I assume AH's point is that a vocalist does not necessarily sing words. Think about it, Frumious can imitate any sound, a fully intelligent and creative noise maker.

He can wail the lead guitars solo back at it, he can synchopate with the drums, he can harmonize with the singer, he acts as the ultimate sampler, he's a scat singer like Satchmo never imagined.

Combine Eminem, Edith Piaf, Pagliaci, Billie Holliday and a Eventide H8000FW effects processor and you still haven't got close to what Frumious can do.

[Tarantula]

And like I said, it wasn't my call in the first place. The Sapience power exists, and it's not going to be quietly swept under the rug until at least next edition. Deal.


Go google "Musique concrete." Maybe the sasquatch has vocalizations beyond its magical mimicry milieu that it can make. If you shoot a sasquatch, does it not scream?

No, it doesn't? Unless they're mimicing something elses scream.

[ThreeGee]

No, it doesn't? Unless they're mimicing something elses scream.

Why? Nowhere does it say Sasquatches are incapable of making expressive sounds, just that they cannot understand speech.

[Tarantula]

Hey, heres a good one. "The Mimicry power allows a creature to imitate a wide variety of sounds, including speech and the hunting calls of other creatures."

So sure, they could talk fine. They just can't understand for some reason. I'll stick to my theory of they hear all the little differences and don't think of it as the same sound.

[Apathy]

As many people have pointed out making noise come out of your mouth isn't the same thing as speech. Nothing in RAW says that they can't make noise, just that they can't make and understand speech.

There are plenty of backup singers out there who do the equivalent of nonsense words ("Dobe-do-be-do-wap, be bop!"). That's not speech, but it might be musical and entertaining. I imagine a creature that has the vocal range and control of an expensive synthesizer might be highly entertaining, even if he never included words in his songs.

[Tarantula]

Actually, it just says that they lack the ability to comprehend metahuman speech as communication, which makes it so they can't learn it.

This does not mean that they can't use their linguasoft let them know what words to say to have it make sense to someone.