So a Sasquatch can't speak or understand spoken language..., WTF? Options

[HappyDaze]

The way I figure it, the reason they can't understand metahuman speech is actually because their hearing is too good.

There is no in-game evidence that Sasquatches have better hearing than a metahuman.

[HappyDaze]

To break the language barrier, could a Sasquatch adept/mystic adept with the Linguistics power speak and understand spoken languages as described in that power?

[hyzmarca]

I telephoned the bear with a pumpernickel case and ate the velveteen rabbit. Stick the sock with a frog fool fricassee or poke the oblong buffalo.

Receptive aphasia, also known as Wernicke aphasia, is a perfect explanation for the Sasquach's difficulty with language. The sufferer unable to comprehend spoken language because he hears words he hears are different from the words being spoken and he is unable to communicate using spoken language because the words he speaks are different from the words he intends to speak. With just the right type of brain damage, you can be fluent in the language and yet not understand a word of it spoken and be unable to speak in coherent sentences yourself.

Linquisoft's wouldn't help and neither would the Linguistics power, since the issue isn't a lack fluency, it is simply involuntary nonsensical word substitution.

[ludomastro]

im reminded of the junkbots from the transformers movie that used tv transmissions from earth as a way to learn english (and ended up sounding like a late night used car sales ad).

hell, i keep finding that language is as much culture as a specific sequence of sounds. and to fully understand a language one have to understand the culture.

as for language being logical, dont even go there. if there is anything thats not logical, its language.

I will second that.

I am fluent in both English (my native language) and Spanish (learned) and neither language is truly logical. It is interesting to note that my English improved as a result of learning Spanish grammar. Don't ask, I have no idea why.

Although I reached a level of conversational fluency (i.e. word order, meaning, etc.) around 6 months in Spanish, I missed a lot of the actual conversation (i.e. subtleties, jokes, etc.) because my cultural understanding was lacking. By the end of two years, I could actually laugh at the jokes and even tell a few myself. However, I learned Spanish in Peru and my understanding of Mexican humor is still lacking due to the cultural differences.

[HappyDaze]

Receptive aphasia, also known as Wernicke aphasia, is a perfect explanation for the Sasquach's difficulty with language. The sufferer unable to comprehend spoken language because he hears words he hears are different from the words being spoken and he is unable to communicate using spoken language because the words he speaks are different from the words he intends to speak. With just the right type of brain damage, you can be fluent in the language and yet not understand a word of it spoken and be unable to speak in coherent sentences yourself.

Thius breaks down when you consider that they CAN use the right animal calls for specific purposes and they CAN reproduce the correct sounds for a given incidence when desired - see the sasquatch 'sound-man' that did music. If it always came out jumbled then you might hear the rolling of thunder when trying to produce bird calls - and this doesn't appear to happen.

Linquisoft's wouldn't help and neither would the Linguistics power, since the issue isn't a lack fluency, it is simply involuntary nonsensical word substitution.

Linguasofts already appear to help, at least through AR interface as described in RC. As far as the Linguistics power, what do you base your answer on? There doesn't appear to be any reason why the power can't function as intended - it goes back to using magical handwavium to counter magical handwavium - which, while I hate, seems to be within RAW. Note also that there is no game information - such as a Negative Quality - that states sasquatch can't use spoken language, only flavor text which is often only partially correct in SR.

[HappyDaze]

I'm also curious - RC hints that sasquatch need linguisofts and AR to understand written communication, but this is once again never spelled out clearly. Can sasquatch learn to read and write?

[ludomastro]

No offense intended HappyDaze, but what are you getting at? Are you dissatisfied with the RAW? Attempting to point out a perceived (or actual) flaw in the fluff/design? Railing against the Man (that is to say, Catalyst)?

Because I get the feeling that you won't be satisfied until you get everyone (or perhaps the devs) to agree with you and let the poor big guy talk and understand. Were I in your shoes, I would just hand wave it for my game and move on with life.

When I play DnD I don't fret over Paladins being required to have a Lawful Good Alignment (which means precisely nothing - see Frank's diatribe over at The Gaming Den). I just tell the player they must be Good, follow a code of conduct and not stray too far/too often from Lawful. Sometimes, I don't even require them to be Lawful. Yes, the RAW says one thing and I handwave it to the way that I want.

Anyway, thats my two nuyen.

[hyzmarca]

Thius breaks down when you consider that they CAN use the right animal calls for specific purposes and they CAN reproduce the correct sounds for a given incidence when desired - see the sasquatch 'sound-man' that did music. If it always came out jumbled then you might hear the rolling of thunder when trying to produce bird calls - and this doesn't appear to happen.

Actually, it doesn't. This particular type of aphasia does nothing to alter the ability to sing and understand song, because music is processed by a totally different part of the brain.

[WearzManySkins]

Actually, it doesn't. This particular type of aphasia does nothing to alter the ability to sing and understand song, because music is processed by a totally different part of the brain.

Correction. That is in a MetaHuman brain, as AH has pointed out this an ALIEN brain such medical fact gathering is moot. Current medical conditions etc do not apply to the ALIEN brain.

The aspects of a Naga being able to understand language with no mean to naturally speak such has yet to be discussed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[HappyDaze]

No offense intended HappyDaze, but what are you getting at? Are you dissatisfied with the RAW? Attempting to point out a perceived (or actual) flaw in the fluff/design?

It's not really in the RAW - as I mentioned, there really is no game information text that specifically prevents sasquatch from learning and using Language skills. The fluff is my problem, and I think it's a rather poorly thought out concept that's been ported forward through each edition without any real thought to it.

Railing against the Man (that is to say, Catalyst)?

If you want to see it that way, then sure - it is a core concept to the cyperpunk genre, right?

Actually, it doesn't. This particular type of aphasia does nothing to alter the ability to sing and understand song, because music is processed by a totally different part of the brain.

So, let's go over this in play:

PC human (spoken): "I'm going to tell you how to woo that hot troll chick over there."
AR linguisoft translates human's spoken message to sign
PC sasquatch (sign): "OK"
AR linguisoft translates sasquatch's sign message to spoken
PC human (spoken): "<<<insert bad pick-up line>>>"
AR linguisoft translates human's spoken message to sign
PC sasquatch: I walk over and repeat the 'sounds' the human just made knowing fully what they mean (or at least as well as the AR linguisoft translated them). I am going to committ these 'sounds' to memory knowing to use it for these situations.

Later the PC learns other such sounds - along with what context to use them in - such as calls for help, alert signals, 'clear', etc.

Where does this break down?

[imperialus]

I admit I haven't read the entire thread yet but what about some kind of autism. You claim that an ability to grasp mathematics must lead to an ability to grasp languages but in the case of some extreme cases of autism it's very clear that this is not the case. Many autistic people are just now learning how to communicate over the internet, and just as many of them are proving highly intelligent, articulate and sociable in a digital setting. They may never speak a word to another person but you could read a post of theirs on a message board and never know the difference.

Now Sasquatch have evolved to function in this manner. A lot of the 'problems' associated with autism are now explained as expressions of frustration and anger at the individuals inability to communicate. A Sasquatch however has evolved so that this is normal for them. They can communicate amongst each other and have no problems with their intelligence, they just communicate differently.

[Ancient History]

Where does this break down?

About the same as when you've got a non-native speaker using a phrasebook, or try the same trick with two regular humans where one doesn't speak French and the other does. The sasquatch character can repeat the phrase but won't have a full understanding of its meaning - not to mention it won't know how to understand any response it gets or synthesize new phrases in the same language because it's parroting without understanding. Plus - and this is a uniquely sasquatch thing - the voice is going to be that of whoever the sasquatch is parroting, not their own voice, which can lead to some confusion and unusual situations.

[Ancient History]

I'm just going to share something horrible I thought of:

PC human female (spoken): "I'm going to tell you how to woo that hot troll chick over there."
AR linguisoft translates human's spoken message to sign
PC sasquatch male (sign): "OK"
AR linguisoft translates sasquatch's sign message to spoken
PC human female (spoken): "<<<insert bad pick-up line>>>"
AR linguisoft translates human's spoken message to sign
PC sasquatch male: I walk over and repeat the 'sounds' the human just made knowing fully what they mean (or at least as well as the AR linguisoft translated them). I am going to committ these 'sounds' to memory knowing to use it for these situations.
<sasquatch male repeats bad pick-up line in voice of human female>
NPC troll female (spoken): "Well, this is unusual...but as a lesbian I'm open to new experiences, so sure!"

<later on, in the motel room>

NPC troll female (thinking): "Okay, so she's a little hairy. I've dated girls who didn't shave before. So now we're in the hotel room and OMFG what IS that oh SHI..."

[hobgoblin]

one thing to keep in mind during all this is that we are not conscious about all the steps our brain have to perform to make the connection between sound and object.

from what i understand, people can have their brain damaged in such a way that they no longer can see motion. only that a object that was ones at location a is now at location b, as if by magic.

so it would not surprise me that given the right environment a being could evolve that can mimic sounds perfectly, but not make the jump to verbal communication.

[Johnny Jacks]

There is no in-game evidence that Sasquatches have better hearing than a metahuman.

Okay, I phrased that badly. I mean that they distinguish the differences in sounds better than human ears do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to mimic sounds as precisely as they do.

[HappyDaze]

About the same as when you've got a non-native speaker using a phrasebook, or try the same trick with two regular humans where one doesn't speak French and the other does.

Yes, but it's made better by the fact that the sasquatch will get the pronounciation correct if the original speaker did. I'm not saying that it will be flawless and perfect communication, but two people with phrasebooks CAN communicate. This means that it should be possible for sasquatch too.

The sasquatch character can repeat the phrase but won't have a full understanding of its meaning - not to mention it won't know how to understand any response it gets or synthesize new phrases in the same language because it's parroting without understanding.

OK, you've already agreed that it CAN speak, but my argument doesn't really help it with understanding spoken responses. For this it will still have to rely on the near-instant translation provided by it's AR. However, it has the reasoning to select a previously heard and memorized response that's appropriate (eideitc memory is a blessing for a sasquatch) and can then give another verbal response. It'll still be phrasebook-ish, but it'll work.

Plus - and this is a uniquely sasquatch thing - the voice is going to be that of whoever the sasquatch is parroting, not their own voice, which can lead to some confusion and unusual situations.

I agree with this part completely. I'd suggest the sasquatch select a pleasing voice from the 10,000+ options available to it from its linguisoft program to memorize the responses in.

[BishopMcQ]

I think one of the biggest problems is that all of us are human. We approach language, cognitive awareness and the concept of consciousness from a human perspective.

Picture a cow in a field, eating grass on a sunny day. I point and say Vahknato. Am I talking about the cow, the grass, the sun, the color of the sky, the fact that I'm hungry, the holiness of the cow, a pressing need to never move behind a four-legged beast? Because there is absolutely no basis for understanding, you can't even take the inflection as direction. Any inferences that can be made are going to be biased from your own preconceived notions of language and the world at large.

We expect people and other intelligences to think like we think, breathe what we breathe, etc. Could we fathom a concept that all the phytoplankton in the ocean is actually a single massive intelligence that sits and watches us? That it groks everything we are but doesn't understand why we can't grok it. Afterall, we have tasted it, we have become one with it, but in the grokking, never grokked. Step back for a second and feel the enormity of Alien.

[HappyDaze]

Step back for a second and feel the enormity of Alien.

The sasquatch is so alien that it can utilize real-time translations to sign language without a hiccup in the system. It's able to comprehend the manner and need for communication and can take steps to address the problem through technology - but not through learning... That's not really very alien in my eyes.

[HappyDaze]

Linguasofts are very valuable for sasquatches, as sign-to-speech, sign-to-text, text-to-sign, and speech-to-sign patches can be easily downloaded for free from the Matrix. This means a sasquatch can use AR gloves with an appropriate linguasoft to translate their sign language into relevant text or computer-generated speech for the language on the linguasoft. If the sasquatch has an image link and the appropriate linguasoft, any text they see or speech they hear in the language can be translated into animated sign language in their image link. This enables erudite, tech-savvy sasquatches to “speak� to other metahumans without much trouble.

Still checking - it's implied that sasquatches have to use linguasofts for written communications, but it this actually the case or is it just needed for languages the sasquatch doesn't already know (as with other characters)?

[BishopMcQ]

The sasquatch can grok humanity, great--that puts it with the phytoplankton in my example. Do we grok it? Nope. Without grokking how the sasquatch processes information and what it does, we can't understand why verbal communication is impossible for it.

[HappyDaze]

Gotcha - we're back to handwavium.

[hobgoblin]

hmm, could one construct a environment that would make it one more fit to survive if one used sign language rather then verbal?

[Cain]

I think you guys are making too big of a deal about the alien thing.

Clearly, their brain allows them to understand and communicate in a way similar to our own, otherwise they wouldn't be able to use AR. A truly alien being might not be able to comprehend such things.

Now, that isn't to say that there aren't some fascinating ideas floating about. It is known for a fact that in the human brain, language has to be acquired within a certain timeframe; miss that window, and there's no chance of you fully developing language abilities. You might be able to pick up some words here and there, but the bulk of it will forever escape you. I'll look up specific case studies if anyone's interested, but a search on "feral children" is a good place to start.

[HappyDaze]

hmm, could one construct a environment that would make it one more fit to survive if one used sign language rather then verbal?

Let's ammedn that to:

hmm, could one construct a environment that would make it one more fit to survive if one used sign language rather then verbal while still developing the ability to mimic all sounds - including speech?

[BishopMcQ]

If you have to label "unable to understand," handwavium, then yes. Nuclear physics was probably handwavium to Newton.

Personally I see a difference between unable to understand due to significant difference and casual dismissal. I don't understand why particle physics works the way it does, should I presume that the Universe is just throwing around handwavium? Instead, I look at it as an area to research and with further self-development I will be able to understand. For all we know, by 2075 there may be enough research to explain why sasquatches understand sign language but not vocalized language. The logical arguments put forth for and against by AH, Chrysalis and others are useful for maintaining a dialogue and seeking understanding. Throwing out handwavium is counter-productive.