Echolocation, Can a mage target with the bioware? Options

[Tarantula]

This came from the datajack thread. heres the quotes for discussion:

Ok, let me admend that to trodes with a sim module, can do everything a datajack can. Honestly, you don't get any extra functionality from a datajack that you can't get from trodes (and a sim module for softs).

You seem to think for nanopaste trodes to work, you need to dunk your head in the stuff pratically. I don't think its quite that wet and nasty. Differences of world view.

Lets see, they could always just stick deactivators into your datajack. Honestly, aruging that "it can't be taken away" isn't very strong, because by the time you lose ALL your gear, your GM is just letting you live out of courtesy.

As far as being better, I think a lot of logic based mages would jump at +1 LOG for drain a lot faster than "trodes that can't be taken away".

But, echolocation is biologically based, not technological, which is the all important distinction for spells.

Bwuh?

You can't target spells using echolocation!

It functions "like a true ultrasound system" which doesn't allow spell targetting. If it did allow the exception, it would specifically say so.

And why don't true ultrasound systems allow spell targetting? Because they're technological. Guess what, this isn't. Why shouldn't it let it?

And another point against datajacks, if someone hacks it, they can then use it to hack ALL your DNI enabled cyber. Trodes don't open the door like that.

It's not a simple tech/bio split.
Rather it's based more on whether you're actually seeing something vs. seeing an overlay of interpreted data.

The pit-viper gland is biological and it doesn't allow targetting.
Cybereyes are technological and DO allow targetting, even if you gain thermo vision.
Echolocation/ultrasound and radar don't.

Without an actual listed exception, the default is to use the rules they give you: "as echolocation" - which specifically disallows spell targetting.

If you've got a page reference for "any bio sense allows spell targetting" I'd love to see it.

SR4, 173, "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is
choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."
Emphasis mine.

The ultrasound section (324 on SR4) and the Echolocation section (63-64 Aug) make no mention of spell targeting. Since the choose the targets section of spellcasting says any technological visual aids, and echolocation is not one, then it is a valid way to choose a target.

[Tarantula]

Alright - how about this: "visual." Echolocation is aural.

Except it 64, Aug, "functions like a true ultrasound system" which, 324, SR4, "The ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound “map� that is laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal visual sensory input."

Emphasis mine. So it is visual.

Bioware isn't technology? It doesn't cause essence loss?

SR4, 173, "Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

Bio-enhancements with essence can be used. Only technological visual aids (such as cameras, elec binoculars, matrix feeds) can't be used. Echolocation meets the criteria.

You can't target using overlays - that's why you can't use goggles/glasses/contacts.

Can't target with TECHNOLOGICAL overlays. Guess what bioware isn't.

So the actual argument is that since echolocation is bioware that causes essence loss it can be used as a visual targeting method by mages.

Because it isn't technological, such as a camera, or ultrasound sensor, but an organ/combination of organs.

[Tsithlis]

I think that this would really come down to the GM's Decision. If he did not care about the power of mages in his campaign he may rule that this would be allowed. Remember there is a reason mages cannot target people through or around walls. Even the Ocular Orb cyberware will allow a mage to target while its inside his head but the second it comes out it becomes unable to target for spells. This gives me the impression that targetting for mages is a game balancing issue that should be considered carefully.

[Wesley Street]

If it's replacing natural or cyber-visual input via an implant, then, yes it can be used in the same way as cybereyes can be used by a mage. But if it's used in conjunction with regular or cyber-vision, then I'd say no.

[Muspellsheimr]

Line of Sight is exactly that - you must be able to see your target.

Visual perception is the ability to interpret information from visible light reaching the eyes. The resulting perception is also known as eyesight, sight or vision.

Echolocation uses sensory organs or technology to receive & interpret information from audio waves. It has nothing to do with vision, and thus cannot provide Line of Sight.

[Tarantula]

Tsithlis, ultrasound doesn't let you see through walls. So what problem do you have with it?

Wesley Street, so you'd let someone get the Radar cyberware as a replacement to normal vision, and let mages cast through walls?

[Tarantula]

Line of Sight is exactly that - you must be able to see your target.

Echolocation uses sensory organs or technology to receive & interpret information from audio waves. It has nothing to do with vision.

SR4, 173, "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is
choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

Except the book says that enhancements paid for with essence can be used, but tech aids that substitute cannot.

[Muspellsheimr]

& how does that have anything to do with this? In context with the paragraph it is from, enhancements are referring to visual augmentation.

You cannot use your cyber-ears to target a spell.
You cannot use olfactory boosters to target a spell.
You cannot use Echolocation to target a spell.
None of the above are visual.

[Wesley Street]

Wesley Street, so you'd let someone get the Radar cyberware as a replacement to normal vision, and let mages cast through walls?

If it was a physical spell (and if I'm understanding the RAW [I don't have the BBB and Street Magic in front of me so I'm going on memory]), no. Because you would be casting through an object. Though you could blow a hole through the object in front of the target using a barrier test. But if it was a mana spell, yes.

[Muspellsheimr]

and if I'm understanding the RAW

You are not understanding RAW. RAW requires you to visually see the target. To be able to see your target, your visual perceptive organs (eyes) must receive light reflected by the target. Radar does not pick up or interpret light, and thus is not visual, and thus cannot be used to target Line of Sight spells.

[Wesley Street]

I don't remember anything in the RAW about reflected light being a requirement for "seeing". If that were true then a mage couldn't use thermovision in cybereyes.

EDIT: Or a troll mage using only thermovision couldn't cast in a cave.

[Tarantula]

& how does that have anything to do with this? In context with the paragraph it is from, enhancements are referring to visual augmentation.

You cannot use your cyber-ears to target a spell.
You cannot use olfactory boosters to target a spell.
You cannot use Echolocation to target a spell.
None of the above are visual.

Because, echolocation can function as a true ultrasound system. Which overlays or replaces vision. It also has its own vision modifiers. How is it NOT a vision modification?

If it was a physical spell (and if I'm understanding the RAW [I don't have the BBB and Street Magic in front of me so I'm going on memory]), no. Because you would be casting through an object. Though you could blow a hole through the object in front of the target using a barrier test. But if it was a mana spell, yes.

Only indirect combat spells actually have a physical presence as they travel from the caster to the target. Powerbolt for example doesn't come out of the magician and fly into the target, it merely affects the target.

[Tsithlis]

Tsithlis, ultrasound doesn't let you see through walls. So what problem do you have with it?

Wesley Street, so you'd let someone get the Radar cyberware as a replacement to normal vision, and let mages cast through walls?

Sorry I was thinking of Echolocation which I believe does allow you to see through things if I remember right

[Tarantula]

Sorry I was thinking of Echolocation which I believe does allow you to see through things if I remember right

You were thinking of radar. Echolocation varies from you can avoid objects clarity, to being as good as ultrasound, but not seeing through things.

[Wesley Street]

Only indirect combat spells actually have a physical presence as they travel from the caster to the target. Powerbolt for example doesn't come out of the magician and fly into the target, it merely affects the target.

I stand corrected. Then, yes, a physical spell could be used.

EDIT: Duh. Brainfart on my part.

[Ol' Scratch]

Because, echolocation can function as a true ultrasound system. Which overlays or replaces vision. It also has its own vision modifiers. How is it NOT a vision modification?

You just answered it yourself.

Echolocation isn't a form of vision at all. The very first sentence of the description for Echolocation in Augmentation (p. 63) even tells you this. It's a form of sound analysis and it even puts the word vision in quotations because it's not vision, but is used that way merely as a descriptor. It's even a combination of a vocal implant and an auditory implant. There's nothing sight-based about it.

By your own admission in the above quote, it wouldn't work even if it was vision based because it "overlays or replaces vision." That's why a pair of sunglasses with vision mods don't work for spellcasting either.

[Tarantula]

Except, that with echolocation, it is not a technological aid, its an organ(s), and isn't covered in that sentence.

[Muspellsheimr]

I don't remember anything in the RAW about reflected light being a requirement for "seeing". If that were true then a mage couldn't use thermovision in cybereyes.

EDIT: Or a troll mage using only thermovision couldn't cast in a cave.

RAW requires you to have Line of Sight. To have Line of Sight, you must be able to see your target. The definition of "seeing" is for you to pick up & interpret light with sensory organs.

Light is the frequencies of Electromagnetic Radiation visible by the human eye. Metahumans are, genetically, human. Infrared Radiation (what is seen with Thermographic vision), is Electromagnetic Radiation, next to Visible Light in frequency.

As Infrared can (now) be received & interpreted by the (meta)human eye, it is visible light, & can be used to target spells.

[Tarantula]

RAW requires you to have Line of Sight. To have Line of Sight, you must be able to see your target. The definition of "seeing" is for you to pick up & interpret light with sensory organs.

Thermographic Vision picks up Infrared light, something Humans cannot normally do, but it is still considered light, light being defined as Electromagnetic Radiation visible to the Human eye. By today's standards, it is not considered light because human eyes cannot pick it up, but that would change when Trolls & Dwarves (who are genetically Human) are capable of seeing it.

Raw requires: SR4, 173, "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is
choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

If I am a mage, and I want to cast on someone 3 feet in front of me, I can look at them and cast.

If I close my eyes, but use my echolocation (as good as utlrasound style) why does that not fall under the bio enhancement paid for with essence to spot?

[Ol' Scratch]

Except, that with echolocation, it is not a technological aid, its an organ(s), and isn't covered in that sentence.

Way to skip the entirity of my reply. Is this the new form of discussion? Dismiss everything that proves you completely and utterly wrong?

The description for Echolocation specifically states that it's not a form of vision and only uses words like "image" as a descriptor. It's an auditory/vocal modification, not a vision modification. Natural or technological it doesn't make one iota of difference. It's an ACOUSTIC SENSE (Aug p. 63), not a visual sense. You're completely and utterly wrong here.

[Tarantula]

RAW requires you to have Line of Sight. To have Line of Sight, you must be able to see your target. The definition of "seeing" is for you to pick up & interpret light with sensory organs.

Light is the frequencies of Electromagnetic Radiation visible by the human eye. Metahumans are, genetically, human. Infrared Radiation (what is seen with Thermographic vision), is Electromagnetic Radiation, next to Visible Light in frequency.

As Infrared can (now) be received & interpreted by the (meta)human eye, it is visible light, & can be used to target spells.

And the radiowaves in radar used are also electromagnetic radiation. Why can't they be used?

[Tarantula]

Way to skip the entirity of my reply. Is this the new form of discussion? Dismiss everything that proves you completely and utterly wrong?

The description for Echolocation specifically states that it's not a form of vision and only uses words like "image" as a descriptor. It's an auditory/vocal modification, not a vision modification. Natural or technological it doesn't make one iota of difference. It's an ACOUSTIC SENSE (Aug p. 63), not a visual sense. You're completely and utterly wrong here.

The description for Echolocation is for having only echolocation. Once combined with the a vocal range enhancer and hearing enhancement, it functions like a true ultrasound system, and is thusly a method to use to see things. And would suffer the same vision mods as using ultrasound vision would. How is it not a visual enhancement?

[Ol' Scratch]

The description for Echolocation is for having only echolocation. Once combined with the a vocal range enhancer and hearing enhancement, it functions like a true ultrasound system, and is thusly a method to use to see things. And would suffer the same vision mods as using ultrasound vision would. How is it not a visual enhancement?

Are you truly this daft?

"Well, you see, if you add a vocal range enhancer and hearing enchancement, it TOTALLY stops being an auditory sense and, somehow that I'm totally not going to explain because it's completely retarded to even conceive, it becomes a visual sense! Despite, you know, everything in its description saying the opposite. But I'mma ignore all that."

Is that really the brunt of your argument here? Really?

[Stahlseele]

I don't remember anything in the RAW about reflected light being a requirement for "seeing". If that were true then a mage couldn't use thermovision in cybereyes.

EDIT: Or a troll mage using only thermovision couldn't cast in a cave.

sadly, it seems, aside from ritual castings, spell-targeting has to be optical.
cyber/bio-Optics work because they are still utilizing optical means, nothing electronical or non-optical means . .
mage-sight-system uses fibre optic cables to let a mage cast through an entire building, but it is still optical, as in seeing things . .
as for the troll, am i reading it right that the troll ain't using any other visual perception than thermographic view?
trolls can't switch optical/thermographic view on and off as they desire, both of those are allways on . . and the mage with the cyber-eyes?
i don't think it's mentioned ANYWHERE that one can switch off optical means aside from lowlight, thermographic view, and eye light and the ultra-sound . .
there's no mention of you being able to use your eyes only with thermo-view . .

[Tarantula]

It says it functions like a true ultrasound system. referencing, SR4, 324. "Ultrasound: The ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter
that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver
that picks up the echoes of these pulses to create a topographic
ultrasound “map� that is laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal
visual sensory input. While ultrasound vision is perfect
to “see� textures, calculate exact distances, and pick up things
otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an
Invisibility spell), it is less adept at other tasks like perceiving
colors and brightness. It cannot penetrate materials like glass
that would be transparent to optical sensors."
Emphasis mine.

So yes, once you get the rest of it, it stops being auditory, and turns into a visual sense. Because thats what the books say. It also will start using the VISION modifiers table for ultrasound.