Echolocation, Can a mage target with the bioware? Options

[Tarantula]

I'll go through your post slowly.

i didn't want to get involved in this, but it's gone on far too long to ignore.

Ultrasound is not a visual sense. It is an audio one. HOWEVER. We humans are not so attuned to making out what we hear by sound alone, so there is a wonderful invention called ultrasound vision. This is a visual representation of the spacial relationships of objects in the room. One can make out the differences, but they are vague. With ultrasound, one couldn't tell the difference between two people in a room, just that there are two people there. How ever, this conversion of ultrasound to a vision is a purely technical and electronic one because as everybody else is telling you, it is an auditory sense. The bioware "echolocation" creates a sense organ that helps the human brain better translate the data the ears are getting from the sonic "clicking" and create a mental image which for the sake of the rules is akin to the ultrasound vision overlay.

Ultrasound is visual, because that is the end result of the way we see it. And you can tell the differences between the people, you can still recognize their faces. They'd just be colorless, think greyscale. It is not an auditory sense, because the end result of you having the 'ware is that you see the room. Not hear it, but you see the room. Why? Thats what the book says, its a visual overlay or replacement.

Radar sense is another one that while it works like ultrasound, but goes through walls. It uses radio waves (which we humans can't create by ourselves <save Technomancers>) to send and receive data, which again, we can't read. We have to rely on technology to convert the signals into a "visual" sense so we can understand the spacial relationships of objects to each other. Again, thank you goggles, glasses, and cybereyes.

It still converts it into a visual sense.

As far as using optical enhancements to cast spells through, it's totally in the rules. At the beginning of the spell casting order of operations page ("Choose the target" p. 173) it says that there can't be any technological means to enhance or recreate the vision. Here, I'll let the rule speak for itself.

"A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

So trolls and dwarves can cast with their thermo becuase it's their natural vision, everyone else can use their regular vision or low light. Outside of that, the ultrasound is a technologically created vision sense and cant be used. With bioware, it becomes an entirely new kind of sense that has nothing to do with vision.

No one is arguing this. But why can a human go get cybereyes, with thermo enhancement, and cast with those?

But, optical enhancements work when spellcasting. That's why mage sight goggles work. They use fiber optic cable to bend light around and see where you need to look. Glasses, telescopes, binoculars, they are all optical based and therefore only use the bending of light through lenses and are used by mages. Vision mag (if it's optical) is even allowed to reduce visual modifiers if the target is too far away. But, digital zooms (like in cybereyes) aren't allowed because that's an electronic enhancement.

Digital zooms in cybereyes work fine. So does thermographic or low light. But only in cybereyes. Not on glasses. Why? Because you paid for it with essence. Same arguement for ultrasound and why you should be able to cast with it.

Sometimes instead of arguing for 9 pages back and forth, one should just look up and educate themselves about the subject matter (ie as in read how the real world equivalent works on a resource site or in a book) and exercise common sense instead of beating a dead horse.

You should have read through the previous arguments before bringing up things that have already been addressed. Thats why this thing keeps going, people jump in, make their point, and I make the same counter-point against it that I did to the first guy 6 pages ago.

[Mäx]

Well, instead of going *click* and getting a flash, you're able to emit like an ultrasound sensor

No you're not the book is pretty damm clear about this.

The books say so.

So you're pretty much just being a way too literal idiot who just lings to a one sentence, about how those three implans work like the true ultrasound system, instead of actully reading how those three implants desricptions say them working.

I agree it would be good if the errata for Aug removed that reference to BBB, but just reading the description of those three implants allready make it clear that compining them doesn't give you a vision.

[MJBurrage]

SR is a game not real life and some things will never be explained to everyone's satisfaction with real science. If you can see something only with your own eyes (natural or paid for with essence) than you can target it for LOS purposes. The one exception is external devices that are purely optical such as fiber-optics, and old-school binoculars, telescopes, etc.

Anything else no matter how it's is described just does not work. If you are unhappy with that than you need to make yourself a house rule, or stay unhappy.


Now for a tangent, it just occurred to me that by the rules, a mage in a high-flying platform, could use a really high power optical scope to target those on the ground with impunity. Think space station with enough living biomass to makes casting possible, and a mage looking through an optical system with enough magnification to identify targets on the ground.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

I'll go through your post slowly.

Doesn't keep you from being wrong.

Ultrasound is visual, because that is the end result of the way we see it. And you can tell the differences between the people, you can still recognize their faces. They'd just be colorless, think greyscale. It is not an auditory sense, because the end result of you having the 'ware is that you see the room. Not hear it, but you see the room. Why? Thats what the book says, its a visual overlay or replacement.

You don't need to tell me how to think ultrasound should look. I've watched videos of ultrasound (and not medical applications). Have you ever seen algorithmic representation of what ultrasound creates? Because that is what your vision would be. It's not exact and precise. Given the technology jump from now to 2070, I'd argue that you'd possibly be able to make out who it is you're looking at, but the modifiers and a perception test take care of that. Plus, it's not you that hears the ultrasound. It's your sensors that then in turn pick up the data and convert it to a visual display for you. It'd be like looking through two video monitors. Have you seen "The Dark Knight" ? that's a radar system that uses math and radio waves to create 3D images that are directly displayed via screens. Even Batman had to use dopey looking glasses/goggles to see that way. It's not a vision. It's data converted to a visual display, no different than a monitor or electronic screen, which by the rules say you can't use to target. If you are using cybereyes, that visual overlay is just another step or perk of imagelink and the ability to overlay anything on what you are actually seeing.

It still converts it into a visual sense.

Yeah, as in you use your eyes to view the visual representation of the data.

Digital zooms in cybereyes work fine. So does thermographic or low light. But only in cybereyes. Not on glasses. Why? Because you paid for it with essence. Same arguement for ultrasound and why you should be able to cast with it.

Yeah, I see it's your same argument, but it's not applicable. Once again, ultrasound is just a display of of sonic data using the reverberations and the doppler effect to create an image. It's purely electronic. The bioware "organ" interperts this data and creates for all intents and purposes a mental image, but is still not sight or vision related.

You should have read through the previous arguments before bringing up things that have already been addressed. Thats why this thing keeps going, people jump in, make their point, and I make the same counter-point against it that I did to the first guy 6 pages ago.

I did read through the previous arguments. You're the only one on your side of the fence and everyone else is on the logical side. You're fighting a war that uses the tactics of ignoring those who provide points against your argument and are borderline Trolling here just to read what you've typed. The only reason I've jumped in was because I thought I could phrase it better for you to understand.

[Tarantula]

No you're not the book is pretty damm clear about this.


So you're pretty much just being a way too literal idiot who just lings to a one sentence, about how those three implans work like the true ultrasound system, instead of actully reading how those three implants desricptions say them working.

I agree it would be good if the errata for Aug removed that reference to BBB, but just reading the description of those three implants allready make it clear that compining them doesn't give you a vision.

Yes, I am being literal. The books don't agree with the devs, and need correction.
How do you know the echolocation implant doesn't connect to the visual cortex the same way a third eye would, and that is how you see the information? It doesn't say it does, but it doesn't say it doesn't either.

SR is a game not real life and some things will never be explained to everyone's satisfaction with real science. If you can see something only with your own eyes (natural or paid for with essence) than you can target it for LOS purposes. The one exception is external devices that are purely optical such as fiber-optics, and old-school binoculars, telescopes, etc.

Anything else no matter how it's is described just does not work. If you are unhappy with that than you need to make yourself a house rule, or stay unhappy.

Actually, I've been looking, and I found a nice loophole. The borrow sense/animal sense/eyes of the pack spell. It does not explicitly ban targetting through borrowed sight. I forsee a control thoughts and influence spells being very useful with this. Control thoughts someone, and then borrow his sight. Have him walk in and do what you need to do, cast influence through his sight on anyone for them to let him do what he is doing.

Now for a tangent, it just occurred to me that by the rules, a mage in a high-flying platform, could use a really high power optical scope to target those on the ground with impunity. Think space station with enough living biomass to makes casting possible, and a mage looking through an optical system with enough magnification to identify targets on the ground.

Problem is, the spells get owned via background count unless they're instant duration spells. And, even in a -6 void the mage still sucks drain as if the spell was cast with +6 force.

[Odsh]

It's data converted to a visual display, no different than a monitor or electronic screen, which by the rules say you can't use to target.

A cybereye is an electronic device that sends visual stimuli to the brain. The ultrasound vision implant does the same.

The only difference between the two lies in how the device generates the data. In one case, it reads incoming electromagnetic waves. In the other case, it is based on sound waves. What Tarantula is saying (correct me if I'm wrong), is that the way in which the device actually generates that data is not relevant. Or at least it shouldn't according to RAW, because it isn't mentioned anywhere. As long as the brain gets visual stimuli that can be interpreted to pinpoint the target's location, and the implant that generates those signals has been paid for with essence, spell targetting should work.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Not all cybereyes would be digital or electronic. There would still be optical based cybereyes. While the ultrasound mod would have both an emitter for the sonic waves and a receptor to receive them, there would still need to be a digital or electronic conversion to create data and "map" (as said in the book) a picture that our visual centers would be able to pick up. It's no different in RL when we look at a thermographic display. We aren't really seeing in thermographic, we are seeing a thermographic senor convert that sense to our visible light spectrum so we can understand it with our senses.

[MJBurrage]

A cybereye is by its very nature an electronic camera that sends out a signal that can be interpreted by the brain as visual stimuli.

Ultrasound is an electronic sensor that shows a representation of its data as a visual signal that can be sent to the brain.

The scientific differences are small enough to have cause this entire thread.

BUT, this is a game with artificial rules that often use techno babel to explain items for fluff or suspension of disbelief reasons. In the end, how any of these implants would work in the real world is immaterial.

Some implants can be used for LOS targeting and they are all eyeware, so for magical purposes it is not "vision" if it is not in the eyes. Based on all of that it would not be out of line to assume that an image link could be used for targeting, but they are specifically described as not usable for magical LOS targeting.

If you want to explain your groups house rule on the matter have fun; but using the supposed science behind an imaginary implant to change the official rules is pointless. (and now very very very redundant)

[Tarantula]

Some implants can be used for LOS targeting and they are all eyeware, so for magical purposes it is not "vision" if it is not in the eyes. Based on all of that it would not be out of line to assume that an image link could be used for targeting, but they are specifically described as not usable for magical LOS targeting.

Troll and cat eye bioware is not explicitly eyeware, just bioware. Yet you can cast with them. Echolocation is just bioware, but you can't cast with it.

I just would like the books corrected to be consistent with what the devs have said, that is all.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

That's a big stretch there. One really has to play the "ignore common sense card" to claim that just because Troll and Cat's eyes are in the same category of bioware as echolocation just because they aren't listed under "eyeware."

I mean, come on, they are a pair of eyes...

[Tarantula]

They make you see things. Echolocation makes you see things. Not that big of a jump.

[MJBurrage]

Echolocation gives you a sense that the mundane brain interprets as vision-like. But it is not truly vision and cannot be used for magical LOS targeting. The same is officially true for Radar and Echolocation.

[Tarantula]

And I'd like for the books to match the dev comments that agree with you. Currently, the books just say they overlay/replace vision, which to me(and a few other people at least) means its vision.

[MJBurrage]

If you parse specific rules carefully enough you will always find contradictions. No publisher could possibly cover that level of rules-lawyering. If the rules as a whole cover the point than an endless stream of overly specific errata is not the best use of the developers time.

Since Ultrasound, Radar, and Echolocation are external to the eyes, they are covered under external overlays not being usable for magical LOS targeting. Hence the errata you want is already there.

[Tarantula]

Since Ultrasound, Radar, and Echolocation are external to the eyes, they are covered under external overlays not being usable for magical LOS targeting. Hence the errata you want is already there.

The full rules sentence says, SR4, 173, "Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."
So, by your reasoning, they are valid, as they have been paid for with essence. "External to the eyes" is not ever given as a requirement for casting.

[MJBurrage]

Looking at that whole sentence:

A spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used.

The first half of the sentence in question (taken by itself) would allow LOS targeting with implanted Radar and Ultrasound, but the second half goes on to say that "technological visual aids" that substitute themselves for the eyes are not good enough (nothing about those overlays being implanted or external). Ultrasound for example specifically describes using such an overlay, hence no good for magical targeting.

No errata needed.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

"but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses...cannot be used."

I think as a group we have addressed that Ultrasound is a technological visual aid because we don't see sonic reverberations. Even if it is being used as a "visual sense", it is replaces the character's true visual sense (though it's use of overlays or substitution) and by it's very technological existence, can't be used by the RAW. The echolocation for all intents and purposes follows the same rules governed by ultrasound and therefore would be also excluded from being used to target spells. There is the definite wording you were looking for, and I think that pretty much sums it up.

[Odsh]

Since Ultrasound, Radar, and Echolocation are external to the eyes, they are covered under external overlays not being usable for magical LOS targeting. Hence the errata you want is already there.

The eyeband is also external to the eyes, since it surrounds the head completely to give a 360° vision. Does that mean you can't use it for spelltargetting either?

[The Jopp]

The eyeband is also external to the eyes, since it surrounds the head completely to give a 360° vision. Does that mean you can't use it for spelltargetting either?

They are classified as Eyeware and are basically Cybernetic eyes. The main connection goes through the eye sockets just like regular cyberyes but then it extends around the head.

[Odsh]

I think as a group we have addressed that Ultrasound is a technological visual aid because we don't see sonic reverberations. Even if it is being used as a "visual sense", it is replaces the character's true visual sense (though it's use of overlays or substitution) and by it's very technological existence, can't be used by the RAW.

A cybereye also replaces one's true visual sense: the eyes are removed and replaced by some device interfaced with the visual nerve cells. Then you "see" what the device is sending you. Just as for ultrasound vision.

The ultrasound vision implant is not physically located in what used to be the eyes. But neither is the eyeband, so the implant's location should not be a criteria for spell targetting.

What seems to matter is that the signals the device is sending to the brain through the visual nerve cells must have been generated based on electromagnetic waves (IR or visual light, doesn't matter). If it's based on sound waves, it suddenly doesn't work anymore, although the stimuli sent to the brain are interpreted in both cases as "I see something I want to cast a spell on". That's fine by me, but it's not logical at all.

In fact, to me the eyeband should even be less adequate for spell casting than the ultrasound vision, since the 360° vision completely distorts what you would be seing with your "normal" eyes.

[The Jopp]

In fact, to me the eyeband should even be less adequate for spell casting than the ultrasound vision, since the 360° vision completely distorts what you would be seing with your "normal" eyes.

The user can also choose how distorted the vision can be. At worst it would be a 360 degree field of view but incur a -2D6 dicepool modifier to casting.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

You are forgetting one thing about Ultrasound and echolocation. It's converted to a visual "map" before we register it in our visual centers.

Here's the breakdown. Visible light turned into a picture by our visual centers. Ultrasonic klicks are mathematically converted into a picture/map of visible light then received by our visual centers. Same for radar (except it is radio waves and not sonic waves). The book says under ultrasound that it is turned into a "mapped" image overlayed normal vision. The part where it talks about how it replaces vision would be if you turned off your normal optical sensors with cybereyes and just used the ultrasound. You'd just be looking at a visual representation of sonic reverberations pumped in front of your visual centers that in turn receive the light and turn it into your mental image. You're missing the big electronic step.

[Odsh]

You are forgetting one thing about Ultrasound and echolocation. It's converted to a visual "map" before we register it in our visual centers.

Here's the breakdown. Visible light turned into a picture by our visual centers. Ultrasonic klicks are mathematically converted into a picture/map of visible light then received by our visual centers. Same for radar (except it is radio waves and not sonic waves). The book says under ultrasound that it is turned into a "mapped" image overlayed normal vision. The part where it talks about how it replaces vision would be if you turned off your normal optical sensors with cybereyes and just used the ultrasound. You'd just be looking at a visual representation of sonic reverberations pumped in front of your visual centers that in turn receive the light and turn it into your mental image. You're missing the big electronic step.

You have light up to the retina, which is part of the biologic eye. From this point on, photons are transformed into nerve impulses, light is out of the game.

In case of cybereyes, the retina is replaced along with the original eyes, and the cybereyes are just devices that directly send those nerve impulses to the brain. There is nothing about "sending light to the visual centers". It's just and electronic device that converts light to electric impulses.

Honestly I don't mind if ultrasound vision cannot be used for spell targetting. It's just how magic works in SR4 and we shouldn't try to explain or justify it, because there is no explanation. That whole light/sound thing doesn't hold water in my opinion. If you think otherwise, then so much the better for you.

[Tarantula]

You are forgetting one thing about Ultrasound and echolocation. It's converted to a visual "map" before we register it in our visual centers.

Here's the breakdown. Visible light turned into a picture by our visual centers. Ultrasonic klicks are mathematically converted into a picture/map of visible light then received by our visual centers. Same for radar (except it is radio waves and not sonic waves). The book says under ultrasound that it is turned into a "mapped" image overlayed normal vision. The part where it talks about how it replaces vision would be if you turned off your normal optical sensors with cybereyes and just used the ultrasound. You'd just be looking at a visual representation of sonic reverberations pumped in front of your visual centers that in turn receive the light and turn it into your mental image. You're missing the big electronic step.

And what about the bioware implant, that does the exact same thing, but is organic and not electronic?

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

But here is where we get back to the fact that despite it is organic, it isn't visual. Read up on your echolocation and how bats and dolphins use it.