Echolocation, Can a mage target with the bioware? Options

[Tarantula]

But here is where we get back to the fact that despite it is organic, it isn't visual. Read up on your echolocation and how bats and dolphins use it.

Except, that it says it is visual, so it is visual.

[BullZeye]

*blows on a whistle* Timeout guys?

Majority thinks Echolocation is not ok for mage-aim, some say it is. Both sides have been heard over and over and over again so there's nothing more to say about this. I'd say now we sit and wait if there's an errata coming about this subject and if not, we all go with out own ruling, either to allow or not echolocation for aiming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Platinum Dragon]

Except, that it says it is visual, so it is visual.

Except that it doesn't, so it isn't.

It cross-references some rules, and only by your personal, willful defiance of logic, verisimilitude and common bloody sense have you come to the conclusion that it's visual. The devs will not 'errata' this because it does not need errata. The only people who would insist that echolocation is visual because the rules it cross-references happen to use the word (while describing a completely different device, no less) 'visual' near the end of a paragraph are the worst kind of rules-lawyer, and any sane GM who is not also the worst kind of rules-lawyer would tell you you're being stupid.

Your argument is bad, and you should feel bad.

And unless you have a counterpoint that is wildly different to your previous arguments, don't even waste your time typing a reply to this - I've heard them; they're idiotic.

Note: while I think your argument is idiotic, please don't take that to mean I think you are as well - quite the contrary. I do think you need to realise that your stance here is a lost cause, however - thus the stronger language.

[Ol' Scratch]

Your argument is bad, and you should feel bad.

Have my babies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Platinum Dragon]

Have my babies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Congratulations, that is the first thing that has ever made me laugh, audibly, at work.

I doff my hat to you, good sir. =P

[Tarantula]

Except that it doesn't, so it isn't.

Except it does, because it describes how shitty it is when used on its own, and then says, if you add it with b and c, it works like the other thing.

Can you agree that the net effect of getting all 3 bioware is that you can use the ultrasound vision modifier table when using a visual perception test?

[MJBurrage]

...It cross-references some rules, and only by your personal, willful defiance of logic, verisimilitude and common bloody sense have you come to the conclusion that it's visual. The devs will not 'errata' this because it does not need errata. The only people who would insist that echolocation is visual because the rules it cross-references happen to use the word (while describing a completely different device, no less) 'visual' near the end of a paragraph are the worst kind of rules-lawyer, and any sane GM who is not also the worst kind of rules-lawyer would tell you you're being stupid.

...unless you have a counterpoint that is wildly different to your previous arguments, don't even waste your time typing a reply to this - I've heard them; they're idiotic.

Note: while I think your argument is idiotic, please don't take that to mean I think you are as well - quite the contrary. I do think you need to realise that your stance here is a lost cause, however - thus the stronger language.

[LabRat]

I have been long thinking about adding a comment to this (since I am one of the two guys who originally wrote the bioware chapter for Augmentation) although I doubt that some people here can be persuaded by what I say (having already set their minds). I have decided to post it nevertheless.

Echolocation bioware is a modification that allows the "perception" of their surrounding by analysis of sound waves that are present from the surrounding. However, it is not a true echolocation (like a bat or dolphin's) because the character does not actively project a ultrasound wave (by screech of instance). He is just the receiver, processes the sound and gets an idea of the surrounding (but not by vision, since there is not any modification to the eye just nerve clusters). The brain might turn this into a "picture" since this is something the brain is able to deal with just because of metahuman biology.

Additonally a character possessing echolocation just relies on the for a metahuman recognizable spectrum of sound. This is why the basic echolocation bioware is not as effective and does not provide a high perceptiual resolution.

However, if the bioware-equipped also possess vocal range enhancer and hearing enhancement implants (or their cyberware and after Runner's Compendium also metagenetic equivalents), he can project and receive soundwaves of the ultrasound band, which provides a higher "resolution" and thus works like a "true" biological ultrasound. Still it is not an innate sense.

The Ultrasound cyberware (which is headware, not eyeware, so cybereyes cannot equipped with it, IIRC) consist of the both ultrasound transmitter and receiver and the computronics to turn this information into a format that the brain can process (such as an "image" overlay). Nevertheless it is based on sound not visual cues. It has nothing to do with the spectrum of light. Again, it is not an innate metahuman sense.

Coming back to the original question, wether you can use it for spell targeting.
Can you use it? As Synner pointed out, humans for an unknown reason rely on their visual sense, mainly because it is innate and the most accurate. It has probably something to do with how the metahuman brain works. So no, you can't use it.

Can para-animals that have echolocation as normal, natural-born, sense use it for spell targeting? We don't know YET. It has never been covered in SR4 (at least to my knowledge). From a conceptual rules standpoint I say that it would be very interesting and give those critters an edge (making them more interesting in combat situations). I think that is something to keep in mind for Running Wild from my perspective (also with other senses that are or might be more accurate than those of humans).

The only problem with my own argumentation (and the exception) is a Changeling's biosonar (RC, p. 111). IF we would allow spell targeting for awakened dolphins by echolocation and IF a changeling was BORN (not SURGED) with this trait, I'd allow it, because for the changeling it will come naturally. For SURGED changelings and characters with the bio- or cyberware I would not allow it. For them it is foreign.

However, there still may be arcane corporate research units from S-K, MCT and Aztechnology developing a metamagic technique that enables a magician to use a different sense then sight for targeting. I think that would also be balancing, IMHO.

[darthmord]

I can agree with that LabRat. Makes sense.

[Tarantula]

and thus works like a "true" biological ultrasound. Still it is not an innate sense.

This was needed instead of stating that it worked like the regular ultrasound vision enhancement that is able to be applied to glasses. Stating that it did not create the visual overlay/replacement would have been good too, since all the other ultrasound 'ware does.

[Tarantula]

MJ, thank you for quoting him again, when I brought up a new point that I don't think I've used in this discussion before. So, how about you answer the question, would you agree that by getting all 3 'ware you then use the ultrasound vision modifiers when making visual perception tests?

[MJBurrage]

MJ, thank you for quoting him again, when I brought up a new point that I don't think I've used in this discussion before. So, how about you answer the question, would you agree that by getting all 3 'ware you then use the ultrasound vision modifiers when making visual perception tests?

I am sorry if my quote came off as flippant, but your post was short enough that I thought you were still arguing that Echolocation (even full biological echolocation) was good enough for magical LOS purposes in metahumans. (For which question the quote was appropriate.) I still believe that SR4 is internally consistent on the topic, and that the confusion mostly stems from those that remember that Ultrasound was a vision mod in SR3, and IIRC, could therefore be used for magical LOS in SR3 under a literal reading of SR3 RAW.

As for mundane targeting, I would agree that full echolocation, be it bat, dolphin, or metahuman, should work just like ultrasound for mundane targeting purposes.

I also agree with LabRat, that Awakened critters born with full echolocation should be able to use it for magical LOS, and in fact used that as a house-rule for a run involving awakened bats.

If running wild officially gives such critters the ability, than I would assume by extrapolation that the same is also true for metahumans born with full echolocation, unless told otherwise.

(By the way, I do not think that allowing Ultrasound for magical LOS is broken, just a house-rule not allowed by RAW.)

[Tarantula]

Ultrasound could NOT be used for magical targetting in SR3. There was no question about it. It had a much better limitation on what could/could not be used for targetting.

If you agree that it uses the ultrasound vision modifiers for visual tests, then can you agree that as far as the ruleset is concerned, ultrasound is vision?

[MJBurrage]

Echolocation forms a "mental image", Ultrasound forms an image overlay. Neither is vision for magical LOS. They are described in terms of vision for mundane purposes, because that is how most perception is described in general, and for mundane purposes they are close enough that a whole set of different rules would be a waste of effort.

If I concentrate I can form a very accurate mental image of the next room, even though I am not in there. I cannot see the items in the room, but with enough skill I could shoot one of them through the wall, since I know exactly where it is.

[Tarantula]

Memory != sensory input.

You still didn't answer what I asked.

[MJBurrage]

What I said boils down to Ultrasound is like vision, but it is not actually vision.

What are you fishing for?

[Tarantula]

Does it use the vision modifiers from the table? Would you say that as far as the rules are concerned, it is vision?

[MJBurrage]

Of course full Echolocation would use the Ultrasound column. However that does not make it "vision" as a sense, just functionally like vision for non-magical purposes (enough to use the same accuracy rules).

Are you really surprised—after this thread—that I thought you were hoping I would just say "yes" so that you could then say something like "well if it is vision, than it can be used for LOS" etc.

[Tarantula]

The fact that it is like vision enough to use the vision modifiers (and the lack of any other text banning it for magical LOS) to me is ambiguous enough to need errata for the spellcasting rules and/or the descriptions of ultrasound/radar/echolocation.

[MJBurrage]

Sigh, already covered above, no errata needed.

[Tarantula]

Sigh, already covered above, no errata needed.

You said you think it is internally consistent. How is it using vision modifiers but not being vision internally consistent?

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Perception tests cover more than the visual, and are used for more than targeting for spell casting. That's why ultrasound is listed with modifiers.

[Tarantula]

Ultrasound is in the vison modifiers table. You say it is not vision.

This is not consistent.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Those would be situations that disrupt your "mapping" with ultrasound. Being that ultrasound is converted to a visual means to see it, that visual "map" would be appropriately distorted, hence the modifiers.

[Tarantula]

Oh? So full darkness disrupts ultrasound mapping?