Some Mage Action Options

[toturi]

Going by the FAQ, the way Permanent spells are maintained are clearly spelt out then - that the spell continues being cast before it becomes permanent. Note also since the way the Permanent spell is maintain differs from Sustained Spells now due to the FAQ, then it would therefore not incur any dice pool penalties unlike Sustained Spells which incur the -2 dice penalty for each Sustained spell. In effect, Permanent spells now trade a complex action (casting the spell) in place of the -2 dice penalty.

[Tarantula]

You just contradicted yourself.

Doesn't actually ignite until the spell is made permanent.

Doesn't actually heal until the spell is made permanent.

See a pattern?

What part of heal says that they do not heal until made permanent?

Since ignite specifies what happens, its typically the exception to the normal functioning, which would be to start the effect when the spell is cast.

[Kurious]

Have you ever read the heal spell, Tarantula?

Why do you think it says 'Hits can also be used to reduce the base time for the spell to become Permanent'?

[Tarantula]

That the hits can be used to reduce the time needed to sustain/maintain the spell before you don't need to sustain/maintain the spell any more.

It certainly doesn't say "Damage isn't healed until the spell is permanent".

[Kurious]

Explain to me why you would need to 'maintain/sustain the spell a number of turns' then if the heal is supposed to happen immediately after you cast the spell.

Also, tell me where it explicitly states you heal immediately.

[Tarantula]

Explain to me why you would need to 'maintain/sustain the spell a number of turns' then if the heal is supposed to happen immediately after you cast the spell.

Also, tell me where it explicitly states you heal immediately.

In order to make the spell permanent. If you stopped before that time came up, it would not be permanent and would undo.

In the spellcasting section, you go through the steps for casting the spell, Step 5 is determine effect. Which happens before drain is done. Thus, the spells effects happen, even before drain happens. (Unless of course, stated otherwise as with Ignite).

Also, SR4, 195, Duration, "Permanent spells must be sustained for a short time, after which their effects become “natural� and no longer require magic or concentration to maintain. The time required to make a spell’s effects permanent is equal to twice the Drain Value in Combat Turns."

This implies that the effects of the spell happen when cast, and take magic or concentration to maintain until they become "natural" and no longer need to be maintained.

[Kurious]

In order to make the spell permanent. If you stopped before that time came up, it would not be permanent and would undo.

In the spellcasting section, you go through the steps for casting the spell, Step 5 is determine effect. Which happens before drain is done. Thus, the spells effects happen, even before drain happens. (Unless of course, stated otherwise as with Ignite).

Also, SR4, 195, Duration, "Permanent spells must be sustained for a short time, after which their effects become “natural� and no longer require magic or concentration to maintain. The time required to make a spell’s effects permanent is equal to twice the Drain Value in Combat Turns."

This implies that the effects of the spell happen when cast, and take magic or concentration to maintain until they become "natural" and no longer need to be maintained.

First off, 'Drain Value' is not Drain. You cast that spell, maintain/sustain it for combat turns equal to the Drain Value x2, once it is permanent (or interrupted), then you roll against Drain. Per steps written.

And really, I'm sorry, but you have made it clear that 'implies' is not good enough.
Show me where it explicitly states that heal is instant.

[Tarantula]

Wrong, again. Steps are:
1. Choose Spell
2: Choose Force
3: Choose Target
4: Make Spellcasting Test
5: Determine Effect - Heres where the effects happen.
6: Resist drain
7: Ongoing effects, such as being sustained. - This is where you sustain/maintain the spell until permanent.

[Kurious]

Actually, that list just adds more credence to the POV that Permanent spells are not the same as Sustained... IMHO.

Clearly this is interpretable; so where is the explicit stating (that you continually demand of others) that states healing spells happen immediately and if you break 'sustaining them' the wounds 'reappear'?

I really wish some errata or Dev. would put this to rest...

[Tarantula]

Actually, that list just adds more credence to the POV that Permanent spells are not the same as Sustained... IMHO.

Clearly this is interpretable; so where is the explicit stating (that you continually demand of others) that states healing spells happen immediately and if you break 'sustaining them' the wounds 'reappear'?

I really wish some errata or Dev. would put this to rest...

I never said it explicitly stated that heal happened instantly.

The logic I use for my position is this:
Most spells effects happen when cast.
An exception to this is the ignite spell, which specifies in its description that they don't ignite until made permanent.
Heal does not have an exception stating that the wounds are not healed until made permanent.

Therefore, heals effects happen when cast.

[Kurious]

Sorry, you have continuously argued with folks that 'the book doesn't explicitly state xyz'; therefore, you must state the explicit if you want your point to stand.

Show me where it states that heal is instant, or stfu.

[Tarantula]

Sorry, you have continuously argued with folks that 'the book doesn't explicitly state xyz'; therefore, you must state the explicit if you want your point to stand.

Show me where it states that heal is instant, or stfu.

Yes, I have, typically when the explicit would be needed to trump the general rule.

Spells effects happen during Step 5 of the spellcasting. The only spell I've found in a quick skim that changes this is Ignite, which states the effects happen once made permanent.

Since heal does not state it happens when made permanent, it happens the same as all other spells, during step 5 of the spellcasting, before even drain is applied.


It is not explicitly said for heal, because all spells follow those rules, unless they specifically function differently, as is the case with Ignite.

[Kurious]

IMHO, your completely wrong...

But then it all boils down the that damn interpretation of whether or not you can Sustain (per duration) a Permanent spell.

Funny, the FAQ clears it up completely, yet- it is a worthless document to the ones who insist they can 'heal instantly' using the 'stop and go' method.

I really wish a Dev would post on here to to put this issue to bed... oh, wait, but then you (and others) would go on about how the Dev is wrong because the book can be interpreted another way.

In closing, because you insist it for others- I insist it for you: show me the explicit, or stop wasting my time.

[Tarantula]

IMHO, your completely wrong...

But then it all boils down the that damn interpretation of whether or not you can Sustain (per duration) a Permanent spell.

Funny, the FAQ clears it up completely, yet- it is a worthless document to the ones who insist they can 'heal instantly' using the 'stop and go' method.

I really wish a Dev would post on here to to put this issue to bed... oh, wait, but then you (and others) would go on about how the Dev is wrong because the book can be interpreted another way.

In closing, because you insist it for others- I insist it for you: show me the explicit, or stop wasting my time.

The FAQ doesn't say that heal happens when made permanent either. In fact, you can go with the FAQ ruling of needing to remain in touch contact, and the wounds would still be healed upon casting of the spell.

I haven't said a Dev was wrong, just that they contradicted the books, and that one or the other needs to be corrected to be in agreement.

I have shown you the explicit for all spells to have their effects happen when cast. The only times this changes, are when the spells explicitly state so, such as Ignite.

[Kurious]

The only spell I've found in a quick skim that changes this is Ignite, which states the effects happen once made permanent.

Also, did it ever occur to you that they probably say:

The ignite spell accelerates molecular motion in the target, causing it to catch fire once the spell becomes permanent.

Simply to tell you what the effect of 'accelerated molecular motion in a target' means?

Again, this to me reinforces my stance completely, Permanent spell effects do not happen until the spell is complete.

But, regardless... refer to my last post if you have anything else to say.

[Tarantula]

SR4, 195, "Permanent spells must be sustained for a short time, after which their effects become “natural� and no longer require magic or concentration to maintain. The time required to make a spell’s effects permanent is equal to twice the Drain Value in Combat Turns."

If the effects become natural once made permanent, then they exist before they are made permanent. This means they begin when the spell is cast.

[Kurious]

Natural= becomes a part of you... takes hold.

The wound closed and finally became 'natural', you heal X damage.

The ignite agitated your molecules and became natural- you are on fire.

[Tarantula]

Natural= becomes a part of you... takes hold.

The wound closed and finally became 'natural', you heal X damage.

The ignite agitated your molecules and became natural- you are on fire.

And you skip completely the fact that it says "no longer require magic or concentration to maintain". If you were maintaining the effect, then the effect is already there.

[Ol' Scratch]

Street Magic p. 160
"Sustained spells last as long as the caster maintains them; their effects end when the spell ends."
"Permanent spells must be maintained for a time, then they become permanent."

1. Explain the difference between these two durations as they are worded in the rules. (Hint: The only difference is that a Permanent spell doesn't have to be maintained indefinitely.)
2. Show me, in the rules, where it says the Range of a spell must be maintained for the Duration of the spell. (Hint: This is the only reason you'd have to keep touching the target of a Range: T • Duration: P spell. Bigger hint: No such rule exists.)

The FAQ is completely wrong. You are completely wrong. There's not even a suggestion in the rules that Permanent spells work the way you wish they did. Spells like Ignite only prove to drive that point home. If they did work that way, Ignite wouldn't be an exception to those rules and need to have it mentioned specifically in its own text.

[Kurious]

While most will agree that the FAQ is a bit outdated (as newer books have altered original rulings and there has been no update)- It is your opinion that the FAQ (created by the ones who made the game) is wrong.

I personally do not hold that opinion, and feel the game makes much more logical sense when applying the FAQ in this instance.

Ignite is not an exception, save the fact that it is Permanent spell that does damage.

[Kurious]

And you skip completely the fact that it says "no longer require magic or concentration to maintain". If you were maintaining the effect, then the effect is already there.

No I didn't. Once it becomes 'natural', (AKA takes effect) you no longer need to 'maintain/sustain the spell'.

If I am lighting a stubborn lighter, I take many turns 'flicking it' until it lights. Once lit, I no long have to concentrate my time 'flicking' it. Same principle applies.

[Tarantula]

Only on ignite, as it is the exception to the rule.

Once it becomes "natural" does not mean the same as "takes effect". Becomes "natural" is the same as no longer requiring magic or concentration to maintain.

If you are maintaining the spell, then it is not "natural"


Example. I cast intoxicate on you and succeed. You're now drunk. After 1 turn, I stop sustaining/maintaining the spell, and you stop being drunk. Why? Because I didn't maintain it long enough to be natural.

Now, if I maintained it for the required length, then I stop maintaining it, and you remain drunk until your body processes it normally.

[Kurious]

Example. I cast intoxicate on you and succeed. You're now drunk. After 1 turn, I stop sustaining/maintaining the spell, and you stop being drunk. Why? Because I didn't maintain it long enough to be natural.

Now, if I maintained it for the required length, then I stop maintaining it, and you remain drunk until your body processes it normally.

No.

Intoxication is just a bad spell (as, not all spells are great). You would have to maintain contact for two rounds (minimum) before the effect took hold, but then you could let go and go about your business as spanky would remain 'drunk'. So, you cannot just 'brush up against someone'; you would have to distract them, or entice them for a short while to let the magic work its mojo.

Besides, all it does is give 'fatigue', all in all, not ever worth while.

[Tarantula]

And why would it not take effect immediately?

Again, I go back to the spellcasting steps:
1: I choose intoxication
2: I cast at force 6
3: I target you and I'm currently touching you
4: I make my test, and get 6 hits.
5: You make your resistance test, and get 0 hits, so I now have 6 net hits. You now take 6 fatigue damage.
6: I make my drain test and get 3 hits, taking 0 drain.
7: I "maintain" the spell for 2 combat turns, not the required 3, and your fatigue damage goes away.


What part of the rules shows this to be the incorrect order of things?

[Kurious]

Your interpretation that you can 'sustain the spell after the drain' is the problem.

I do not agree with that interpretation one bit. I agree with the FAQ which would interpret that Drain does not happen (under force six, per your example) until the end of round 3. You would have to touch the target the entire time, so you better be pretty and have a good charisma.

Neither of us are going to change the others mind. I support the FAQ, you reject it... move on.