Dermal sheathing, A quick question. Options

[JudgementLoaf]

I noted that the dermal sheath upgrade had two additional options: the ruthenium polymer coating and the chameleon upgrade. Does the upgrade require the coating, or is it assumed to be part of the purchase price for the chameleon option?

[Jhaiisiin]

Chameleon coating seems to be an advanced application of the ruthenium treatment, so I'd consider it part of the package.

[Tarantula]

I just thought of a great new concept. Shapeshifting mage with ruthenium dermal sheath. Hes gonna be naked anyway, might as well be a naked invisible bear or whatever.

[psychophipps]

I just thought of a great new concept. Shapeshifting mage with ruthenium dermal sheath. Hes gonna be naked anyway, might as well be a naked invisible bear or whatever.

So how much is this stuff supposed to stretch (or shrink), my man? Going from a buck-fifteen elf to 900 lbs grizzly would be kinda hard on the ol' sheath, let alone the chameleon goodies, no?

[Tarantula]

Thats where the magic comes in eh?

[JudgementLoaf]

Im getting bad flashbacks to the biodrone called the "cyber-toothed tiger". But this time is a bear.

It costs essence, so its likely to stretch (haven't seen the new shifter rules just yet....im assuming based on previous 'ware. Stuff that uses essence being affected by magic the same as the person, like cybereyes). That, or your going to have a very bloody, very angry bear for a few minutes before it collapses from fluid loss. Frankly, I don't know which is more frightening.

[Stahlseele]

ware does not work while shifted

[Tarantula]

I should have specified, by shapeshifted I meant shapechange the spell.

[Stahlseele]

same difference, as far as ware is concerned, as far as i am concerned(read: as far as i remember)

[Tarantula]

same difference, as far as ware is concerned, as far as i am concerned(read: as far as i remember)

Quote? Cause the book doesn't say anything about cyberware when shapechanged.

[Stahlseele]

where is the difference between shifter change and spell change, aside from shifters getting more bonuses?

[Tarantula]

where is the difference between shifter change and spell change, aside from shifters getting more bonuses?

Shifter have a lot more rules. Shifters also have regen.

[Tarantula]

Whoops, double post.

[Stahlseele]

which, in turn, also would force out any ware, in a horrible, yet amusing, way . .
curious, i could have sworn i had read somewhere, that all ware inside a shapechanged body is still there, but is not useable . .
but now i can't find that bit of info anywhere in the 4th ed books . .

[psychophipps]

Besides, doesn't a cyberlimb (or any artificial warez for that matter) get a resistance roll? Better be rolling good, buddy, or you're about to have yourself a very bad day at the office...

[Tarantula]

no, it doesn't, because you paid essence for it. So its part of you, and affected when you are by a spell.

Interesting note, I noticed in the shfiters section it does say cyberware is available for animals also, so why wouldn't the ware just turn into the same ware for the animal you shift into?

[psychophipps]

no, it doesn't, because you paid essence for it. So its part of you, and affected when you are by a spell.

Interesting note, I noticed in the shifters section it does say cyberware is available for animals also, so why wouldn't the ware just turn into the same ware for the animal you shift into?

Huh...I always figured that you paid essence because it's not a part of you and your dumbass was all determined and shit to jam that stuff inside you anyway. There is a reason why cyberware is a glaring fugly when a character is reading an aura, after all. If it's "a part of you due to essence cost" then why is this the case?

I would have to say that magic being able to shrink and expand a normally somewhat magic resistant , insanely complex, and quite resistant to change via outside mundane physics forces device at will as being...whack? Yes, I do believe that "whack" is the term. It kind of removes the purpose of the magic/technology separation, IMO.

And cyberware for your dog with the bum leg or the hyper-hound 2000 security death-mutt doesn't typically expand and shrink (nearly) at will as it would for a shifter by your reckoning. Also, any regenerative ability would, by my reckoning and a gentleman above in this regard, make the installation of said cyberware...difficult? Very painful? Both in abundance?

[Tarantula]

Again, NOT a shifter, but a mage using the SHAPECHANGE spell. I think that a spell that is able to turn an average person (body 3) into something as small as a normal dog, or into a shark, or a wolf, would be able to change those things that person has paid essence for. The entire history of shadowrun once you pay essence, it is "part of you" as far as magic is concerned. Why? Because it was invasive and foreign enough to cost you essence but now its there.

[Little Johnson]

My thinking is that if it DIDNT shrink/expand then a simpel shrink /enlarg other spell would be too killer to have around.

just enlarge the street sammie and watch him freak because all his augmentation just stayed the same size and ripped itself out.

[Xiaan]

i know we're talking the shapechange spell, but as far as shifters go in the companion it states that you can purchase wares for animals but they don't work in human form. as a shifter you're not human/troll/elf/whatever, you're just a freak of whatever animal species you're from. the human form is the shifted form, and it is stated that the cyber ware only works in the animal form, I'd figure being dualnatured and highly magical creatures, as shapeshifters are, that even a spell couldn't create a much different effect. unless you're talking ritual magic and hell it seems there's not bounds to what is possible there.

[Jhaiisiin]

For the shapechange spell, it states your equipment and gear doesn't get transformed, but you do. As "You" is defined as your meatbod plus any essence paid enhancements, they get transformed as well. However, I would rule that they do not function in your changed form, due to the differences inherent in your new form compared to your natural one.

[Tarantula]

This would work even better for a bear shifter, since he can get the delta grade 'ware implanted with chameleon and have it work in bear form, and then shift to human and not have it. Super sneaky big ass scary cloaked bear, or naked weakling human.

[Moon-Hawk]

For the shapechange spell, it states your equipment and gear doesn't get transformed, but you do. As "You" is defined as your meatbod plus any essence paid enhancements, they get transformed as well.

I agree with this. "You" get changed into "Bear". Since your cyberware is part of "you" it also gets changed into "bear". Not "cyberwear shaped like a bear", but actual meat and fur "bear". If you're a regular human, you get turned into a bear, if you've got cybereyes, you get turned into a bear, if you have cyberlimbs, you get turned into a bear, if you have dermal sheath, you get turned into a bear. But you get turned into a regular bear, not a bear covered in bear-shaped cyberware. Just a bear.

AFAIK there's nothing crystal clear in the rules one way or another, but FWIW if you're sitting at my gaming table, it works like that.

[Tarantula]

I agree with this. "You" get changed into "Bear". Since your cyberware is part of "you" it also gets changed into "bear". Not "cyberwear shaped like a bear", but actual meat and fur "bear". If you're a regular human, you get turned into a bear, if you've got cybereyes, you get turned into a bear, if you have cyberlimbs, you get turned into a bear, if you have dermal sheath, you get turned into a bear. But you get turned into a regular bear, not a bear covered in bear-shaped cyberware. Just a bear.

AFAIK there's nothing crystal clear in the rules one way or another, but FWIW if you're sitting at my gaming table, it works like that.

Just curious, if they have a tricked out cyberlimb, and they go bear, do they still get tricked out cyberlimb stats as "meat and fur" bear? Or do you say "nope, you paid a ton of cash and essence and such for that, but it doesn't work, you're screwed"

What about bioware? Its still flesh.

[Jhaiisiin]

The ware, be it bio or cyber was not designed for the bear form, and thus does not function. That would be my take on it. So, if you wanna benefit from all that spiffy stuff, don't let the mage shapechange you.