[X] My Assistant

[Synner667]

Hi,

With the advent of Fuzion, D20, etc I wondered what's the the legal position of using rules mechanics that already exist for something more than just a homebrew system/setting ??

Can a dice mechanic be copyrighted/patented ??
If I want to design a rpg using [stat+skill+d20 vs target number] or [stat/skill or less on d20], do I need to license it from someone or is that generic and unenforcable ??

Obviously, designing an rpg with the same mechanics and background and options as an existing rpg would be copyright infringement...
...But few things are unique and parallel design does happen.


Thoughts/ideas ??

[Fuchs]

d20 has the OGL, the Open gaming License.

It's basically open source for RPGs, meaing the system's mechanics can be used by anyone:

Q: What is meant by the term "Open Gaming"?

A: An Open Game is a game that can be freely copied, modified, and distributed, and a system for ensuring that material, once distributed as an Open Game will remain permanently Open.

Q: Why use the term "Open Gaming"?

A: The term is derived from the software development community. In that community, the term "Open Source" is used to refer to computer software that is provided to the public using licenses that require the source code to be distributed, and provide permission to the recipients to freely copy, modify and distribute that code as well.

The commonly accepted definition of "Open Source" software is the Open Source Definition, maintained by the Open Source Initiative project. The Definition is fully explained online.

Where possible, an Open Game License should try to implement as much of the Open Source Definition as possible. The Open Source community has spent many years fine tuning their license requirements and debating the law, and the ethical foundation of the Free Software concept. We can all benefit from that effort by using their work as a baseline for the Open Game movement."

[Synner667]

Thank you...
...But that doesn't address the points I asked about.

[Fuchs]

You asked if you'd need a license to use the d20 mechanics. I answered that there's such a license, and it's free. It's used for a lot of different games (M&M, Conan, True20, etc.).

So, if you want to use the d20 mechanics for your game, that's a tested way to go about it, without legal troubles.

[nezumi]

Can a dice mechanic be copyrighted/patented ??

From what I understand, you cannot copyright a dice mechanic system. So if you decided to take the SR3 'roll a number of dice equal to your skill, plus appropriate pool, against a variable target number' you'd be okay. The problem arises when you begin using other creative properties, such as the words 'combat pool' or 'karma pool'.

[hyzmarca]

Mechanics are, at best, patentable and usually not, they tend to qualify as being obvious.

Fluff and presentation is copyrighted, which does mean that it is a good idea to use different wording.

[Dumori]

Or wording that can't really be change and you would use if you made that up or self. You might roll defense die/dice that's has to be over the nuber the atacker rolled and your die/dice increase in number with your defense rating you might roll a d4 to start then a d6 d8 d10 d12 2d8 ect now I've just made that up but there could be an RPG that uses that system but I doubt much would come to me if I published that system with other rules and such.

[Fuchs]

Original ED had such a system. You rolled different dice/combos per level of your skill. 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12, 2d6, etc.

[deek]

So, it seems to me you can make up and use any dice mechanic system you'd want, but if you went to publish it, you better do your research and make sure its not too similar to something else out there.

[Dumori]

I think we might be running out of practical dice systems any how as I mange to make EDs with out even seeing its rules. As well as the number of dice systems there are.

[Kronk2]

So, it seems to me you can make up and use any dice mechanic system you'd want, but if you went to publish it, you better do your research and make sure its not too similar to something else out there.

interestingly enough, that is also how Margret Wies does the Serenity system and its clones.

[ludomastro]

Word to the wise - if you step on an interested party's toes then you will get slapped with a lawsuit. If it is another indie publisher, then you might not have any issues, the two of you can figure it out. Were it Hasbro ... it would be more napalm, less slap. Even if you are right (in a legal sense) you will be buried in motions, lawyers, court proceedings, requests for venue change, etc. You will run out of money before they run out of fight and there you go.

They win, you loose. (This is the Sixth World after all.)


Notice: I am not now, nor have I ever been a lawyer. I figure common sense advice is free.

[shadowfire]

Hi,

With the advent of Fuzion, D20, etc I wondered what's the the legal position of using rules mechanics that already exist for something more than just a homebrew system/setting ??

Can a dice mechanic be copyrighted/patented ??
If I want to design a rpg using [stat+skill+d20 vs target number] or [stat/skill or less on d20], do I need to license it from someone or is that generic and unenforcable ??

Obviously, designing an rpg with the same mechanics and background and options as an existing rpg would be copyright infringement...
...But few things are unique and parallel design does happen.


Thoughts/ideas ??

i do not know if this was explained fully, but i was informed about this by a indie game designer.
The only way to legalize a gaming mechanic of any type is by patenting it. Copyright is more for images, ideas, and such. Patents are expensive and tend to be a bit more than what most game companies want to deal with. So if you wanted to take the Shadowrun D6 system and use it for something else that would be fine by the law- even if you wanted to make money from it. As long as you are not ripping the whole game and Catylist does not have a patent on the rules. D20 I think words differently somewhat- i think they have something like a patent on it and thats why you have to have the license...... but its D20 so its not worth making anything good out of anyway.

[Cantankerous]

From what I understand, you cannot copyright a dice mechanic system. So if you decided to take the SR3 'roll a number of dice equal to your skill, plus appropriate pool, against a variable target number' you'd be okay. The problem arises when you begin using other creative properties, such as the words 'combat pool' or 'karma pool'.

Isn't something like "combat pool" too generic itself to go after legally? Or Karma pool for that matter? If you have a variable number of dice to draw from for actions your character undertakes it is, per definition, a pool, yes? Certainly "Combat" is far too generic a word(ing) for them to go after. I'd argue that Karma is too. So how does anyone go after either insistence in a legal sense?


Isshia

[Cain]

i do not know if this was explained fully, but i was informed about this by a indie game designer.
The only way to legalize a gaming mechanic of any type is by patenting it. Copyright is more for images, ideas, and such. Patents are expensive and tend to be a bit more than what most game companies want to deal with. So if you wanted to take the Shadowrun D6 system and use it for something else that would be fine by the law- even if you wanted to make money from it. As long as you are not ripping the whole game and Catylist does not have a patent on the rules. D20 I think words differently somewhat- i think they have something like a patent on it and thats why you have to have the license...... but its D20 so its not worth making anything good out of anyway.

You cannot copyright a dice mechanic, as it is an expression of probability, not a mechanism. Just imagine what would happen if someone were to try patenting Craps.

You can copyright works based on said mechanic: for example, a book on craps can be copyrighted, and copying from that would be plagarism. Any you can patent a type of craps table. But craps itself is an expression of natural forces, and cannot be copyrighted.

[shadowfire]

Right.. which is what i said. You can patent it but its more trouble than its worth some times.. Plus craps its in public domain and couldn't be copyrighted or patented.


The term patent usually refers to a right granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof. The additional qualification utility patents is used in countries such as the United States to distinguish them from other types of patents but should not be confused with utility models granted by other countries. Examples of particular species of patents for inventions include biological patents, business method patents, chemical patents and software patents.

Some other types of intellectual property rights are referred to as patents in some jurisdictions: industrial design rights are called design patents in some jurisdictions (they protect the visual design of objects that are not purely utilitarian), plant breeders' rights are sometimes called plant patents, and utility models or Gebrauchsmuster are sometimes called petty patents or innovation patents. This article relates primarily to the patent for an invention, although so-called petty patents and utility models may also be granted for inventions.

Certain grants made by the monarch in pursuance of the royal prerogative were sometimes called letters patent, which was a government notice to the public of a grant of an exclusive right to ownership and possession. These were often grants of a patent-like monopoly and predate the modern British origins of the patent system. For other uses of the term patent see Land patents, which were land grants by early state governments in the USA. This reflects the original meaning of letters patent that had a broader scope than current usage.

Copyright- the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 50 years after his or her death.

[Ol' Scratch]

In other words, you can use the mechanics and even most of the rules. What you can't do is copy-and-paste them or try to present them as being related or associated with anything other than your own work. You also need to make sure specific phrases aren't trademarked (which you can usually but not always find in the credits of major sourcebooks). For example, "Matrix" used to be such a term for FASA, though I don't know if that's still the case. And yes, they can be trademarked to protect their use in a very specific medium. So you can still use "Matrix" to describe anything other than a global virtual-reality computer network in an RPG without reprecussion.

[shadowfire]

............... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

I'm just wondering why you needed to restate that?

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm just wondering why you needed to restate that?

Maybe you should check the time stamp one day, Captain Perceptive.