How to fix Chase Combat, From the Compromise thread... Options

[Cain]

Okay, someone asked me to bring this into a thread all it's own, so here goes.

After looking at the Chase Combat rules, I've come to the conclusion that they're basically useless, and I want to fold some of their better functions into normal combat.

Why are the Chase rules useless? They don't do a good job at vehicle combat. It has a different timeframe which makes adding in the actions of passengers problematic; the rules can't handle more than two vehicles, and the rules don't acknowledge things like being dramatically faster. It allows you to instantly teleport from long range to within 5 meters (the "Picard Maneuver") regardless of speed.

What do I like? I like the fact that distances are abstracted, and that you can Cut Off and/or Break Away. I don't like having to calculate relative speeds, and I think the rules for a Cut Off is pretty elegant. I like the concept of being able to Break Away with a simple set of rolls, but I don't like the fact that it takes a minimum of four minutes to do so.

I'll give one example, which is admittedly extreme, but based on a real story. We're in a modified sports car, and being chased by go-gangers. Now, our car is much faster than their bikes-- we're at a Speed of 300. Assuming they're on racing bikes, and not choppers, their top speed would be 200. They're probably not even going that fast.

We make our opposed roll for Chase Combat. Now, each driver gets to roll; we outscore most of them, but one biker does better than we do. He gets to set the range for the combat, and chooses Short Range. So, they just pulled off the "Picard Maneuver", and teleported within a few meters of us.

Next, the passengers act. While everyone else is taking potshots at the gangers, I'm calling my bound Force 10 spirit. I have it use the movement power on us. 300 meters/turn x10 = 3,600 kph, or Mach 4.6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Now, what really happened was that the GM simply handwaved our escape, and we got away. But this is an example, so if we followed the rules, here's what would have happened:

By the rules, a vehicle that exceeds its base Speed will suffer whatever penalties the GM feels is appropriate. We're going so fast, you'd expect a hefty penalty. But that means we're less likely to succeed on the opposed test, so the gang manages to keep up, despite the fact we're going more than four times the speed of sound. We have to win three rounds in a row, then make a Break Away test on the fourth round. Of course, by that time, we'll have traveled 150 miles; the bikes wouldn't have even gone one tenth of that.

So, there's one example for you. I can come up with others. But basically, what I'd like to see is vehicle rules that are compatible with normal combat, but still allow for abstract distances and abstract actions. What do you all think?

[Tarantula]

Just because your speed is 300 doesn't mean you're travelling at top speed 100% of the time.

[Synner667]

Gee, yet another thing broken in SR v4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Offhand, I can't remem how chases were done in SR1-3 [and I don't have my rulebooks to hand]...
...But if they worked ok, can't you "convert" those rules ??

[The Amazing Myst...]

I found myself running into this same problem getting ready for a run planned for this weekend.

The setup is that the runners are hired to escort a convoy of Zugmachines to protect them from a go-gang.
The bikes are so much faster they should run circles around the trucks.

The difference in the opposing dice pools on the vehicle test between the truckers and bikers are about six dice.
This should give the bikers the advantage, but in a situation where the pools are much closer I could see it becoming unrealistic.

So I thought for every 5 or 10 meters a vehicle was traveling faster than the opponent, to give him a +1 die pool modifier.
What I didn't think of was your "Picard Maneuver" this could really pose a problem.
Possible solution would be if they won the vehicle test they could only one change their range by one.

Not a perfect solution, but still keeps it abstract for easy play.

[Aaron]

The setup is that the runners are hired to escort a convoy of Zugmachines to protect them from a go-gang.
The bikes are so much faster they should run circles around the trucks.

What's the terrain like? I've only been in two high-speed chases in my life, but in both cases the top speeds of the vehicles involved were not a factor. I'm not saying it never could be, but that's my (limited) experience.

[Ryu]

I'll give one example, which is admittedly extreme, but based on a real story. We're in a modified sports car, and being chased by go-gangers. Now, our car is much faster than their bikes-- we're at a Speed of 300. Assuming they're on racing bikes, and not choppers, their top speed would be 200. They're probably not even going that fast.

We make our opposed roll for Chase Combat. Now, each driver gets to roll; we outscore most of them, but one biker does better than we do. He gets to set the range for the combat, and chooses Short Range. So, they just pulled off the "Picard Maneuver", and teleported within a few meters of us.

If you are going 300 in an urban area (non-highway), you are facing some nice tests just to survive. Thats a driving test threshold of up to 7, called each round. With some turns and assorted break/acceleration phases, bikes look pretty good all of a sudden. Then you have not an "instant" jump in distance, but a change of combat distance over the course of two minutes.

[The Amazing Myst...]

Aaron

It's an open two lane highway. A bridge here and there, but really no place for ducking and diving.

Since it is pretty much a straight shot, I think in this instance vehicle speed would be a factor

[Tarantula]

Aaron

It's an open two lane highway. A bridge here and there, but really no place for ducking and diving.

Since it is pretty much a straight shot, I think in this instance vehicle speed would be a factor

Well, you have to go from not moving to going 300m/turn. They jumped you at some point, at which point chase combat started. If they kept winning initiative, then they were able to keep you from accelerating to your top speed, and kept you where they wanted you.

[WeaverMount]

Really this whole thing boils down to how each table uses RAW. RAW is not a simulation, at all. In fact it only passably models the intended crux of the game, and corner cases spiral off into absurdity shamefully quickly. I think most everyone here has the can 'look a head' enough moves to see more or less the RAW out come of running a given mechanic, and if the table is focused on telling a story it will be very obvious how modify or hand wave a situation.

[sunnyside]

First of all the chase scene I'd like to have is all of us running down whatever writer thought though movement power was great RAW. Maybe not to hurt them. Just to get them to detox before it's too late.

Moving on, unless you're out on the salt flats or a totally congestion free highway you aren't going to be able to use that speed of 300. That's why they abstract it. And I don't think there's anywhere in Seattle except maybe some old straighaways in the barrens where you get the combination of straight roads and low traffic. Maybe some choice roads at 4am.

However one thing I do let my players do instead of the regular rules is if appropriate make manuvers or attempt speeds and then they and anyone following them have to make the appropriate rolls. This method can be much faster though riskier.

So for example lets say you got on the highway at 1am and said you wanted to accelerate to 300 mph and ditch the gangers. The gangers wouldn't be able to follow, but I'd then make a call based on road conditions and traffic as to what threshold you need to roll to not crash in the process.

[Ryu]

Aaron

It's an open two lane highway. A bridge here and there, but really no place for ducking and diving.

Since it is pretty much a straight shot, I think in this instance vehicle speed would be a factor

No chance to keep up for the pursuer = no chase combat. Barely a chance to keep up = massive penalties. Fail three times in a row = you lost.

[Cain]

Offhand, I can't remem how chases were done in SR1-3 [and I don't have my rulebooks to hand]...
...But if they worked ok, can't you "convert" those rules ??

Good gods, hell no! I have a bottomless hatred of the Maneuver score. I think competitive basket weaving would have been a better mechanic. Jon Szetzo is a nice guy, but he needs a serious lesson in how to write game mechanics. I mean, you could spend forever calculating a score that ended up being meaningless. When I say that SR4 is better than the maneuver score, I'm not saying much of anything-- I prefer Synnibar to the Maneuver Score, and FATAL is only a few spots down from it.

What I didn't think of was your "Picard Maneuver" this could really pose a problem.
Possible solution would be if they won the vehicle test they could only one change their range by one.

That pretty much only slows down the problem, it doesn't stop it.

If you are going 300 in an urban area (non-highway), you are facing some nice tests just to survive. Thats a driving test threshold of up to 7, called each round. With some turns and assorted break/acceleration phases, bikes look pretty good all of a sudden. Then you have not an "instant" jump in distance, but a change of combat distance over the course of two minutes.

As you pointed out, that's already been factored into the rolls you need just to survive. It seems highly unfair that you penalize them again for going fast, when you're trying to get away. As for the change in distance, it is "instant" in that they suddenly jump from long range at the end of last turn, to short range at the start of the new turn.

Now, I don't mind the concept that people should be penalized for going fast, especially in tight areas. What I don't agree with is that it doesn't help them get away. Once you make the roll, you've successfully held your speed. There should be an advantage for doing that, as opposed to no bonus or even a penalty. They've been penalized once, why do it again?

So for example lets say you got on the highway at 1am and said you wanted to accelerate to 300 mph and ditch the gangers. The gangers wouldn't be able to follow, but I'd then make a call based on road conditions and traffic as to what threshold you need to roll to not crash in the process.

That's more or less what happened. However, just to be pedantic, I should point out that it's 300 meters per turn, not 300 MPH. I think 300 meters/turn equals about 220 MPH. Still way the hell too fast for most road conditions. As far as jumping to Mach 4.6, that really happened. A Force 10 spirit with the Movement power can really give you a boost. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

At any event, what the GM did was use the Rocket Booster rules to determine the damage to the car. We had to make several rolls to keep from crashing, then the Turbo Boost roll to not splatter. Personally, I thought it all worked out. But I also dislike handwaving, and I'd like some solid house rules to implement.

Really this whole thing boils down to how each table uses RAW. RAW is not a simulation, at all. In fact it only passably models the intended crux of the game, and corner cases spiral off into absurdity shamefully quickly. I think most everyone here has the can 'look a head' enough moves to see more or less the RAW out come of running a given mechanic, and if the table is focused on telling a story it will be very obvious how modify or hand wave a situation.

That's exactly it, though. You shouldn't have to handwave a chase scene. I dislike GM fiat in the first place; even when you do it right (e.g., without upsetting anyone) you're filling in for a hole in the rules. The whole point of this thread is to find a way to make vehicle combat work.

[Tarantula]

Way to completely skip my post.

I don't think you were just cruising down the street at absolute top speed. If you were why? When you weren't being chased? Assuming that you weren't screaming down the street at top speed...

"They" didn't pull off anything, the one bike did, by outmaneuvering you and managed to get close to you, forcing you to let the rest of them get close also. How? He outmaneuvered you. How? He rolled better.

Next problem, you swapped from chase combat to tactical combat after the first round. In which case you shouldn've just been doing tactical combat in the first place.

Lastly, as far as movement, it all depends on how the GM interprets it to work. Saying you accelerate away from them at X speed and they're gone is not "Hand-waving" it, it just makes sense. Movement is a horrible power anyway.

[WeaverMount]

Cain I got your problem, you want speed to matter, but you want to keep distance abstract. I don't really see how that is do able.

What I would do is say that car chases only happen when it would be awesome play, and there for they only happen in areas where skill and handling are more important that top speed. I don't that the system should have to model all situations just the ones that are fun to play. It doesn't have to work as model of life, it has to produce fun car chases.

If it can up at my table I'm have regular drive test to maneuver at though the environment at a given speed. and actually track distance. That's just me though.

[Synner667]

Good gods, hell no! I have a bottomless hatred of the Maneuver score. I think competitive basket weaving would have been a better mechanic. Jon Szetzo is a nice guy, but he needs a serious lesson in how to write game mechanics. I mean, you could spend forever calculating a score that ended up being meaningless. When I say that SR4 is better than the maneuver score, I'm not saying much of anything-- I prefer Synnibar to the Maneuver Score, and FATAL is only a few spots down from it.

Wonderful comment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

How about using the Trinity rules for vehicle combat, at least as a starter/framework [since the game mechanics are so similar] ??

[Cain]

I don't think you were just cruising down the street at absolute top speed. If you were why? When you weren't being chased? Assuming that you weren't screaming down the street at top speed...

"They" didn't pull off anything, the one bike did, by outmaneuvering you and managed to get close to you, forcing you to let the rest of them get close also. How? He outmaneuvered you. How? He rolled better.

Next problem, you swapped from chase combat to tactical combat after the first round. In which case you shouldn've just been doing tactical combat in the first place.

Lastly, as far as movement, it all depends on how the GM interprets it to work. Saying you accelerate away from them at X speed and they're gone is not "Hand-waving" it, it just makes sense. Movement is a horrible power anyway.

Okay, here's the problem with the RAW. The winner of the opposed test sets the range for everyone. So, the one guy who beats us is able to place all his buddies in Close Range. If you tried to make it so you could set your ranges depending on who had the higher roll, you'd end up with a mess; it'd be a pain to remember who's in what range from whom.

Second, we didn't switch from Chase to tactical combat, although we probably should have. Passenger actions get weird in chase combat, mainly because of the change in time frame. I also wonder what would happen if I had sent the spirit into the chase. It doesn't have a vehicle skill, so the Force 10 spirit would end up being left behind.

Cain I got your problem, you want speed to matter, but you want to keep distance abstract. I don't really see how that is do able.

What I would do is say that car chases only happen when it would be awesome play, and there for they only happen in areas where skill and handling are more important that top speed. I don't that the system should have to model all situations just the ones that are fun to play. It doesn't have to work as model of life, it has to produce fun car chases.

If it can up at my table I'm have regular drive test to maneuver at though the environment at a given speed. and actually track distance. That's just me though.

Okay then. You don't see any way of abstracting speed? I mean, we've been advocating handwaving it, isn't that sort of the same thing?

Wonderful comment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

How about using the Trinity rules for vehicle combat, at least as a starter/framework [since the game mechanics are so similar] ??

OK, I don't have a copy of Trinity handy. What were their rules, in a nutshell?

[Tarantula]

Okay, here's the problem with the RAW. The winner of the opposed test sets the range for everyone. So, the one guy who beats us is able to place all his buddies in Close Range. If you tried to make it so you could set your ranges depending on who had the higher roll, you'd end up with a mess; it'd be a pain to remember who's in what range from whom.

How is that a problem? He outmaneuvered you, and everyone else, and managed to get you all bunched up in a close group. What is your problem with that? He drove better than you.

[sunnyside]

I do miss the candor they had back in the old editions where they start the section off with something along the lines of "we don't really do vehicle combat, here's something to wing it with"

[Cain]

How is that a problem? He outmaneuvered you, and everyone else, and managed to get you all bunched up in a close group. What is your problem with that? He drove better than you.

One guy drives better, they all get into Close range. It wouldn't matter what the other go-gangers rolled. If we beat every single biker except for one, they all can come into close range. Heck, they could all critically botch, and they'd still close the distance, pulling a Picard Maneuver.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Max speed really doesn't matter...until somebody hits it.

If the chase scenario above was happening at 100, then you never got near anybody's max speed.
If it had happened at 200+, then the go-gangers should have had handling penalties (from exceeding max speed) on top of any others (from obstacles or whatever.)
If you were going 300, then the chase would have consisted basically of an ambush action that would have needed to cripple your vehicle in one pass to even be able to start a chase.

This is pretty much why riggers completely trash non-riggers - a non-wired character has to spend his one action to avoid a crash test, while the rigger should have 3-5 passes - spend a couple of those accelerating, and the chase is basically over. A wired character may have 3 passes, but is unlikely to have the skill (or bonus dice, or handling modifiers) to compete.

[Xarei]

Here is what I ran with in my last game, its a little handwavy, but it got the job done.

--------------------------
Chase Combat:
The rounds in chase combat are specifically defined as being 10 combat turns, this is not always appropriate, a go-gang rumble in tight city streets a chase will happen much faster than say a zepplin race. So, chases take a dramatically appropriate amount of time between 1 and 15 combat turns. Everyone involved in the chase gets 1 turn worth of action regardless of if they are a passenger or a driver.

Chases can occur in 3 types of terrain, Close, Normal and Open
Close: Thin city streets, canyons.
Normal: Wide city streets with little traffic, rough offroad terrain.
Open: Open highway, plains.

Close terrain favors vehicles that have higher acceleration but top speed doesn't matter.
Open terrain allows all participants to go their top speed but acceleration is not really important.
Normal terrain is a balance of the two.
Bonuses are assessed based on how much the top speed and acceleration of the slowest vehicle in each group relates to the slowest vehicle in the slowest group, each set amount above that slowest speed / accel (use the # to the left of the slash) grants some free dice on the maneuver roll at the start of each chase round.

Close: +2 Dice for each 5 acceleration in excess of slowest
Normal: +1 Die for each 5 acceleration in excess of slowest
+1 Die for each 25 speed in excess of slowest
Open: +2 Dice for each 25 speed in excess of slowest
--------------------------

At the time of the game Arsenal wasn't out so this hasn't been playtested in a world with vehicle modification, but this would be pretty easy to tweak to adjust the dice pool differential to whatever a GM feels is right.
It does not specifically address the "Picard Maneuver" problem, but at least it is less likely that a slow crummy vehicle will thoroughly outmaneuver a fast good one.
Also, with regards to a go gang chase, I always used the rule that is suggested for 1 vs. many interactions (I believe the original rule was for social tests) which is roll the group's best pool with a bonus for having friends in the mix, rather than having each individual roll as that inevitably leads to some nameless chump getting lucky.

I found the main problem with this rule as written is it had my players clamoring for a zepplin chase....

[Cain]

If the chase scenario above was happening at 100, then you never got near anybody's max speed.
If it had happened at 200+, then the go-gangers should have had handling penalties (from exceeding max speed) on top of any others (from obstacles or whatever.)
If you were going 300, then the chase would have consisted basically of an ambush action that would have needed to cripple your vehicle in one pass to even be able to start a chase.

While what you say makes sense, the problem is that's not at all what the rules say. The rules say you must chase it out,regardless of the speed difference. I'm looking for house rules that mean you don't have to.

Xarei: I like what I see, although I'm still thinking about the range issue. I'm thinking that instead of the winner of the test setting the range, he gets a +2 Superior Position modifier, kinda like the one you can get in melee combat. That way, you don't have to worry about distances so much.

[sunnyside]

While what you say makes sense, the problem is that's not at all what the rules say. The rules say you must chase it out,regardless of the speed difference. I'm looking for house rules that mean you don't have to.

Xarei: I like what I see, although I'm still thinking about the range issue. I'm thinking that instead of the winner of the test setting the range, he gets a +2 Superior Position modifier, kinda like the one you can get in melee combat. That way, you don't have to worry about distances so much.

It's not exactly house ruling. You're just getting away from the opposition using tactical combat instead of chase combat. The trick is that doing this forces you to actually lay out the details of the roads and such that you're on. But if you want to go ahead, the rules for speed and handling the various manuvers you might try are all there in the RAW.

Chase combat is for when you don't want to lay out the roads, aren't shooting the other vehicle, and you don't want to be making manuvers that will crash you.

[Cain]

It's not exactly house ruling. You're just getting away from the opposition using tactical combat instead of chase combat. The trick is that doing this forces you to actually lay out the details of the roads and such that you're on. But if you want to go ahead, the rules for speed and handling the various manuvers you might try are all there in the RAW.

Chase combat is for when you don't want to lay out the roads, aren't shooting the other vehicle, and you don't want to be making manuvers that will crash you.

Chase Combat requires a few more things than that to work. You have to be in vehicles with roughly equal speed and acceleration, of the same type (chasing a helicopter in a car, for example, doesn't work in Chase Combat), and so on and so forth. Basically, since it requires so many things to work, it's effectively useless as far as rules go. Which is a pity, because it does have some good concepts in it.

I personally think Chase Combat should be removed entirely, and have its better functions folded into Tactical Combat. The problem is, I can't see how to do that without either abstracting or handwaving distances.

[sunnyside]

The problem is, I can't see how to do that without either abstracting or handwaving distances.

That's exactly it. If you want to do things in tactical combat fine, but it's insanely slow and requires detailed mapping.

Going to chase combat means you're sacrificing detail. Again in a chaise in typical city streets in traffic you simply aren't going to tax the top speed of most vehicles.

For example I live in Philadelphia. Unless it's 4am or what have you good luck getting over 100 mph for more than ten seconds or so, forget about 220 miles an hour.

Actually maybe what you need is to transfer down from chase back to tactical combat.

I.e. lets say you get into a chase in downtown Seattle. Use chase combat to handle the two minutes it'd take to get to a straighaway without traffic lights, if you used tactical combat then you'd have to blow 40 combat turns.

But once there switch back to tactical combat to outrun the guys.