money laundering, how is it done? Options

[Skip]

Quiet frankly I always just use my fixer for stuff like this. My group never wanted to get busted for something stupid, so we let the fixer handle the extraction, for a fee naturally. It also made it easier on the GM, which I was thankful of when I was the GM. This is after all one of the things a fixer does.

[kzt]

Actually, traceability a problem. Simply put, corporations sell a lot of stuff to poor people and to criminals. The SINless and professional criminals are two overlapping key demographics that corporations need to cater to.

Actually, they don't. They don't have nearly as much money as corp employees, governments or businesses. Furthermore accountants don't like it when sources of funds mysteriously show up on the books and when accountants don't like your bookkeeping the shareholders get kind of antsy and you end up with the corporate court doing audits of you books to see where the money came from.

Plus you have the lavishly funded investigative reporters of competitors (and their deniable "agents") who are looking for opportunities to slam you. It's ok to deal with crooks who own countries, are called mayor or are smart enough to cleanly launder the money. It's just bad business to deal with street scum.

[Cain]

Yep. But the card (and certified credsticks) are basically just an account number. There's no actual cash on it. Every transfer you make with it requires the involvement of a banking system, and you still have to get past whatever security features are linked to that account in order to transfer funds to or from the card. Be it a PIN number or biometric data. And while cards like that exist today with no security measures at all, it's highly doubtful that post Crash 2.0 Shadowrun would have anything of the sort. In fact, they've gone out of their way to try and remove any kind of free currency from the world economy for that very reason.

And this all assumes a certified credstick, which the original poster does not have. He just has access to the guy's commlink and its resulting bank account numbers. Which is definitely going to be safeguarded with PIN numbers and biometric data at the very least.

Even if he just has access to the guy's account information, that can easily give you enough to hack it. You look up his birthdate, and try that as a PIN; you might be surprised how often that works. My ex used to keep a notepad file in her documents folder with her passwords for everything; she had trouble remembering them all, and she wasn't alone. We're not allowed to discuss actual hacking methods on Dumpshock, but if you look up "social engineering", you can find out about it yourself.

And you read something wrong. We're not assuming the money is on a certified credstick. We're assuming he can get a certified credstick, and then transfer the money onto that. You then transfer it again, and again, and maybe once more if you're paranoid. By that point, no one will be able to prove the money was stolen.

[hyzmarca]

Actually, they don't. They don't have nearly as much money as corp employees, governments or businesses. Furthermore accountants don't like it when sources of funds mysteriously show up on the books and when accountants don't like your bookkeeping the shareholders get kind of antsy and you end up with the corporate court doing audits of you books to see where the money came from.

Plus you have the lavishly funded investigative reporters of competitors (and their deniable "agents") who are looking for opportunities to slam you. It's ok to deal with crooks who own countries, are called mayor or are smart enough to cleanly launder the money. It's just bad business to deal with street scum.

Individually, they don't have nearly as much money. But there are millions of them and they have the same basic needs as everyone else. You think that food manufacturers are going to let a multi-billion nuyen demographic go completely untapped? Everybody has to eat.

And certified cred allows them to keep the bookkeeping clean, that's the entire point. They were paid for good and/or services in certified cred. They have no idea by whom.

Consider the pager industry in the 80s and early 90s, before cheap cell phones superseded them. There were basically two key pager-using demographics, medical doctors and street level drug dealers. Street level drug dealers, of course, paid in cash and put fake names on their service plans. Without street level drug dealers, there would have been no pager industry.

[Ol' Scratch]

And you read something wrong. We're not assuming the money is on a certified credstick. We're assuming he can get a certified credstick, and then transfer the money onto that. You then transfer it again, and again, and maybe once more if you're paranoid. By that point, no one will be able to prove the money was stolen.

Disagreed there. Each and every one of those transactions are being recorded, complete with the (anonymous) account details. Since storage is no longer even a remote issue post Crash 2.0, there's no reason in the world that banking institutions would delete that information. So tracing it back to the original commlink would be no issue at all.

Now if you did it with credsticks from less-than-reputable banks -- namely the ones that cater to the underworld -- you might have a chance of making the trail disappear. But even then a determined hacker could find the information.

That said, if stealing people's account information from a swiped commlink were as easy as you guys are making it out, there's no real reason why it wouldn't be the single largest crime in Shadowrun. Hell, you'd be stupid to risk your life regularly to do some nobody's corporate espionage gigs when all you have to do is pick-pocket some corporate suit and drain their acounts and life savings away every now and again.

[Cain]

Disagreed there. Each and every one of those transactions are being recorded, complete with the (anonymous) account details. Since storage is no longer even a remote issue post Crash 2.0, there's no reason in the world that banking institutions would delete that information. So tracing it back to the original commlink would be no issue at all.

Now if you did it with credsticks from less-than-reputable banks -- namely the ones that cater to the underworld -- you might have a chance of making the trail disappear. But even then a determined hacker could find the information.

That said, if stealing people's account information from a swiped commlink were as easy as you guys are making it out, there's no real reason why it wouldn't be the single largest crime in Shadowrun. Hell, you'd be stupid to risk your life regularly to do some nobody's corporate espionage gigs when all you have to do is pick-pocket some corporate suit and drain their acounts and life savings away every now and again.

The big money in SR4 is identity theft; there's certainly a high demand for fake SINs. But there's also enough competition out there to keep prices down. It'd also be stupid to keep using a stolen commlink, considering that each one comes with a built-in GPS. If you can't crack a commlink quickly-- before it's reported as stolen-- you have to get rid of it before it reports your location.

[HappyDaze]

Why settle for half measures? Identity theft is best done when a hacker and a possession tradition free spirit work together. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[wind_in_the_ston...]

OK, a lot of good discussion here.

First, I will address certified credsticks. There are only two ways to get one (transactionally speaking). You trade something to someone who has one, or you give some nuyen to a bank and they make one for you. If I have a stolen commlink, I either sell it (the first instance), or I... okay, that second example is just not going to work here. So we can clearly remove certsticks from the equation.

So where does that leave us? Just because you've hacked your way into a comm, it doesn't mean you've hacked your way into the international financial system.

So all you can do is spend the money as if it's your own comm - if you can handle the banks' security measures. And until they shut it down. Furthermore, unless you have some very highly placed contacts, you can't erase the data trail.

But how do you transfer funds? As far as I can tell, you can only do it via banks and stores (virtual or physical). In other words, through a cash register. Is there any other way? How do you get a cash register? Any ideas for obtaining access?

And as much as I like the idea of selling the comm to a fixer, who in turn sells it to someone who specializes in such things, how do they get the funds out? At some point, the rules for faking IDs mentioned that the process included setting up a financial history as part of the fake records. Does that mean that nuyen can be forged?

Yes, there were several questions in here, some of them onlyvaguely related to the original question.

[Shiloh]

Actually, there are a number of color printers that have chips in them that recognize and refuse to print images too similar to american money, because it can too easily be passed as a fake.

AFAIK, all standard printers and photocopiers have software in them that recognises a pattern of yellow dots that is incorporated into the design of pretty much every banknote worldwide (tin-pot banana republics a possible exception, but their banknotes are generally not worth forging). Once the pattern is recognised, the device will not render the image in which they are included.

[Ol' Scratch]

The big money in SR4 is identity theft; there's certainly a high demand for fake SINs. But there's also enough competition out there to keep prices down. It'd also be stupid to keep using a stolen commlink, considering that each one comes with a built-in GPS. If you can't crack a commlink quickly-- before it's reported as stolen-- you have to get rid of it before it reports your location.

I think you missed my point.

This thread is about stealing the nuyen in a person's account via their stolen commlink. There's no identity being stolen. There's no buying and selling of fake SINs. There's no keeping the commlink around. According to several people in this thread, it's apparently easy as pie to transfer all of their money to certified credsticks, launder it, and walk away rich. And if it were that easy, there'd be no reason to run the shadows. Just swipe a corporate suit's commlink, rob him blind, and live the good life until you run out of cash. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Which, alone, would prove why there has to be some serious security and safeguards in place. Because if it were that easy, there would be no confidence in their use, and the economy would be destroyed through both that lack of confidence (which is what almost all currency in the modern world relies upon) in it and because it would be impossible to safeguard your earnings. Particularly with how integrated commlinks are in the 2070's.

[Cain]

Well, presumably the old credstick security system would still be in place. In order to make a transaction over a certain amount, you need to pass additional security measures. For example, in the real world, merchants don't need a signature for transactions under $25. The next step up in Shaodwrun would probably be something biometric, and thus much harder to forge.

[Chrysalis]

Depends on the country. For example in the UK you now have to place in your PIN number everytime you use a cashpoint machine with a bank and switch card. In Finland it is not everywhere, but is becoming more common. Over 50 euro transactions now demand in Finland that a valid photo identification is shown which is an ID card, passport, or a modern driver's license.

On the Internet there is a demand for electronic signing, which in Finland takes the form of logging into your electronic bank account, whereby the bank issues an electronic signature to the second party. Inreasingly common with credit cards with online transactions is also typing in the card security code (i.e. the last three digits of the numerical sequence found on the reverse side of the card) for added security.

I tested out photocopying a 20 euro bill, one of the more common banknotes in Europe on three different Xerox photocopy machines, one of which is a color copier. All of them happily made copies of the bill, but revealed the thermocromic ink security feature. This restriction by photocopiers may be limited to BoE and U.S. banknotes.

Edit: After placing the colour photocopier on colour copy, it registered a notification of illegal registered material on the photocopier platter.

[nezumi]

You think that food manufacturers are going to let a multi-billion nuyen demographic go completely untapped? Everybody has to eat.

If we're talking SR3, I'd ask you to refer firstly to the Street Gear section and note what items have Street Index or Availability. That indicates that getting them without a SIN is difficult. As you'll note, it includes almost everything. Now please turn to Lifestyles and note where it says buying anything other than Low or lower, or luxury requires either a SIN or a false ID. I assume SR4 is similar.

Now I'm not saying this makes sense, and there are clearly ways around it (certified credsticks, physical money, mafia-backed financial services, etc. all function without a SIN and limit accountability in different ways). Ultimately though, from my own experience, the solution has either to have a dedicated middleman or a false identity. I'm sure Damien Knight has several (include 'Damien Knight') he can use to buy his porn. Most criminals who are actually going to buy things new will have at least one false identity with which to do so.

Meanwhile, while Ares might not want Renraku having files about what Ares people spend, it DOES want information on what Renraku people spend. So it is motivated to get every other corporation to not employ accountability, but it itself is motivated to employ it. Since every corporation is therefore motivated to include data-gathering techniques, even though they don't like the ubiquity of that data-gathering, it likely will be employed. Similarly, Damien Knight probably likes the fact that he can track what all of his managers buy, even if he has to jump through some hoops to avoid them knowing what he buys.

I'm not saying you're wrong from a realistic world standpoint, and certainly you're welcome to play it however you please. Shadowrun has its share of unrealistic world details. However, at least from my reading of the SR rulebooks, your view does not seem to be reflected by the game designers.

[hyzmarca]

If we're talking SR3, I'd ask you to refer firstly to the Street Gear section and note what items have Street Index or Availability. That indicates that getting them without a SIN is difficult. As you'll note, it includes almost everything. Now please turn to Lifestyles and note where it says buying anything other than Low or lower, or luxury requires either a SIN or a false ID. I assume SR4 is similar.

I doubt that Soyburger Helper qualifies as a high lifestyle meal, or even a medium lifestyle one.

[nezumi]

That is true. So we are left with two possibilities.

1) Anonymous cash is easily available and even commonly used (as you implied, Damien Knight uses it). However, in order to rent an apartment or buy a house, to buy most types of clothing (I'm going off memory here, so don't hit me too hard if I'm wrong), to buy radios or a home computer, even a bicycle helmet, for some reason legally requires an ID check. Only vendors who don't care to follow the laws, or for truly basic items like food, will an ID check not be required.

2) Anonymous cash is not easily available and not preferred by vendors. Most vendors will go with tracked electronic money. The only vendors who do not go with that option are those who, due to (generally financial) conditions are outside of the infrastructure, cater to very specialized crowds, engage in illegal activity, or who are otherwise unable or unwilling to use that currency. Anonymous cash is thereby very muchso the exception.

In other words, if anonymous cash like you're suggesting is available, there must be another major force resulting in so few vendors accepting it for even minor, mundane purchases. What is your suggestion?

[Tarantula]

#1. Anything R/F won't take it unless you buy it on the black market. Required for purchasing on the black market. Most small stuff (everyday items) aren't an issue to get with it.

[Cain]

I doubt that Soyburger Helper qualifies as a high lifestyle meal, or even a medium lifestyle one.

Food is folded into your Lifestyle, and a Lifestyle doesn't require a SIN. So, that means grocery stores and restaurants don't require a SIN either. You can probably also rent from most places without a SIN, just paying with certified cred.

[Tarantula]

Food is folded into your Lifestyle, and a Lifestyle doesn't require a SIN. So, that means grocery stores and restaurants don't require a SIN either. You can probably also rent from most places without a SIN, just paying with certified cred.

I think you're wrong.

SR4, 259, "If you lack a SIN, many activities that normal citizens
take for granted become impossible for you. For example, you
need a SIN to get a legal job, open a bank account, own property,
go to school, rent an apartment, establish utility services,
and so forth. Most importantly, a SIN is now required for any
form of legal travel—including just buying a bus ticket."

Also, as far as using certified cred...
SR4, 260, "Certified credsticks are a popular form of payment among
those who wish to retain a semblance of anonymity. Because of
this, there are still plenty of businesses that will accept certified
credsticks for payment purposes, though higher-classed establishments
may give the holder funny looks."

[nezumi]

Food is folded into your Lifestyle, and a Lifestyle doesn't require a SIN. So, that means grocery stores and restaurants don't require a SIN either. You can probably also rent from most places without a SIN, just paying with certified cred.

Also explicitly wrong in SR3.

p.241

"For middle and high lifestyles, the characters will need someone with a SIN or a very good cover story."

[Cain]

Also explicitly wrong in SR3.

p.241

"For middle and high lifestyles, the characters will need someone with a SIN or a very good cover story."

All right, but that means Squatter, Low, and Luxury don't require SINs. Which means you can get basics like food and clothing without a SIN. With a Luxury lifestyle, I assume that you're rich enough to bribe anyone who cares to complain about your lifestyle.

Edit: That was also SR3. In SR4, things may be different. I can't find that rule in the BBB4.

[Tarantula]

All right, but that means Squatter, Low, and Luxury don't require SINs. Which means you can get basics like food and clothing without a SIN. With a Luxury lifestyle, I assume that you're rich enough to bribe anyone who cares to complain about your lifestyle.

And in SR4, it means street/squatter don't need a SIN.

[kzt]

You can probably also rent from most places without a SIN, just paying with certified cred.

You haven't tried to rent an apartment recently, have you? They want credit checks and often references that they call. Even for fairly crappy places, as people trash places and cause huge bills.

[Cain]

You haven't tried to rent an apartment recently, have you? They want credit checks and often references that they call. Even for fairly crappy places, as people trash places and cause huge bills.

And for most crappy places, the landlord will ignore the requirements if you place a big enough deposit down. That's how I got a place with no references: I put down the first three months rent, plus a hefty deposit.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Certified credsticks aren't easy to use. They come with a set amount. This means you've got to have a pocketful of them to come anywhere near close to what you're buying. I imagine a lot of places would balk at giving 30¥ change for a 50¥ stick.

[Cain]

Certified credsticks aren't easy to use. They come with a set amount. This means you've got to have a pocketful of them to come anywhere near close to what you're buying. I imagine a lot of places would balk at giving 30¥ change for a 50¥ stick.

Where did you get that idea from? Credsticks come in many different values, according to the BBB; I'm too lazy to look up the page ref right now, though. And it works just like a prepaid credit card-- you can debit just what you need, and even add to the balance if you want to.