money laundering, how is it done? Options

[nezumi]

I've never bought a prepaid credit card, however I can't buy money orders, even with cash, without showing an ID (I have no idea why, but thems the rules.) Heck, at many places I can't even buy train tickets without showing ID!

Using certified cred will not flash a SIN, however, there are many purchases you cannot make without a SIN (as has been previously established), and we aren't sure what is required to buy certified cred. So it could be this data is still tracked somehow, even if it isn't necessarily linked to the user.

[Tarantula]

I've worked at a grocery store as a cashier. We sold the prepaid debit cards. (100$ card = 108$ cost to you)

To sell them? We scan it, take their money, and it prints out an activation receipt, never had to check an ID unless you were trying to exceed our stores amount in one transaction policy and needed a manager to override it.

[Cain]

I've never bought a prepaid credit card, however I can't buy money orders, even with cash, without showing an ID (I have no idea why, but thems the rules.) Heck, at many places I can't even buy train tickets without showing ID!

Using certified cred will not flash a SIN, however, there are many purchases you cannot make without a SIN (as has been previously established), and we aren't sure what is required to buy certified cred. So it could be this data is still tracked somehow, even if it isn't necessarily linked to the user.

Transportation does require a SIN, although there might be ways around it. Right now, in theory you can't use air travel without an ID. But if you tell them you forgot your ID, you just go through a severe security check. You're also more likely to be "pulled aside" for a more intensive check. As for the money order, I just bought one without showing ID. Maybe things are different where you live?

To buy certified cred is apparently a lot like buying a bearer bond or prepaid credit card. You hand them your money; they take a transaction fee, and hand you your money.

[nezumi]

I've worked at a grocery store as a cashier. We sold the prepaid debit cards. (100$ card = 108$ cost to you)

To be clear, are you selling them a prepaid credit card, like American Express gift cards, or are you selling prepaid store gift cards, like say a Sears or Target card? Because the two are apples to oranges. I can't use a Target card to buy gas or pay rent.

[Tarantula]

Prepaid visa/american express/discover cards. They have a service fee, I think it was about 8$ for a 100$ card.

Gift cards, such as a sears or target card that we sold did not have any service fee. You put 100$ on it, you got 100$ value at that store.

[Shiloh]

When you let him charge your commlink, it will flash your sin to his, which will check it before processing the transaction... so yes.

Okay, so just having a commlink gives free access to small quantity transactions, without any buggering about with PINs or biometrics? And every tiny transaction gets checked against... something? That, I don't buy.

I think the point I'm trying to make, rhetorically, is that "checking stuff" costs money, and if that amount is a significant proportion of the transaction, then it's not worth making the transaction. You have to determine that limit for your view of the Sixth World. If all the "check" is, is a checksum calculation, then it's not worth doing (easy to fake the checksum), so it won't be done. If it's got to query some central database and check fingerprint hashes and DNA, then your street vendor isn't going to be able to make enough sales to make a living.

I believe that there will still be a small cash economy, and I think there's "official" support for that. Not every sale has to have an ID alongwith it, AFAIAC, since that would be dim, IMO.

[Tarantula]

I've bought a 41¢ stamp from the store on my debit/credit card. Most larger business don't give a damn. Most smaller ones will impose a minimum charge before allowing you to pay with credit.

I think commlinks function similarly to this.

[Cain]

Okay, so just having a commlink gives free access to small quantity transactions, without any buggering about with PINs or biometrics? And every tiny transaction gets checked against... something? That, I don't buy.

I think the point I'm trying to make, rhetorically, is that "checking stuff" costs money, and if that amount is a significant proportion of the transaction, then it's not worth making the transaction. You have to determine that limit for your view of the Sixth World. If all the "check" is, is a checksum calculation, then it's not worth doing (easy to fake the checksum), so it won't be done. If it's got to query some central database and check fingerprint hashes and DNA, then your street vendor isn't going to be able to make enough sales to make a living.

Well, I know that McDonalds doesn't require credit card signatures for transactions under $25; or at least the ones near where I used to live did. But they still ran the card, and checked to make sure you had enough balance on it. They've got to do a minimal amount of check-ups on you, just to make sure your money is legit.

[Shiloh]

Well, I know that McDonalds doesn't require credit card signatures for transactions under $25

[boggle]

Over here in rightpondia, you will have a problem using a card with a signature for anything, and you will *always* be asked for your PIN. Almost no one will take a card transaction for less than £5.

But they still ran the card, and checked to make sure you had enough balance on it. They've got to do a minimal amount of check-ups on you, just to make sure your money is legit.

Do hot dog vendors take a lot of their trade via card?

[Tarantula]

Here in the US, most credit cards don't have pins, its only debit cards that do.

[nezumi]

Okay, so just having a commlink gives free access to small quantity transactions, without any buggering about with PINs or biometrics? And every tiny transaction gets checked against... something? That, I don't buy.

I don't know about SR4. From what I remember, however, it was the user's choice. He could set it to either require PIN/biometrics for every purchase or not, to either transfer lots of data to the seller or only the minimal necessary. There may have been one to not transmit any data to the seller, but the data is still getting transmitted to the bank and the bank is just affirming it's okay, so the information is still tracked, even if not tracked by the seller himself.

In SR3, I was under the impression that it always requires authentication, although I couldn't find a page quote for you. Certified cred is the exception.

I think the point I'm trying to make, rhetorically, is that "checking stuff" costs money,

Checking if the account has money costs money, since you have to send a message to the credit card company. I believe they charge about .25% of the transaction amount, or some flat fee, per charge. It doesn't cost anything additional to require a PIN or check your signature, but it does cost time (and yes, time is money). I've read up some on how credit cards worked, and I've not seen anything anywhere which changes the price based on how many security features you use or don't use (although I believe you accept increased liability for theft if you don't use the security features - probably why some stores don't require a signature for under $25. They decided the risk of theft * $25 is less than the value of the time spent prompting for a signature.)

Most smaller ones will impose a minimum charge before allowing you to pay with credit.

Do note, that is in violation of their credit card agreement. If they charge you $.25 for using a Visa card instead of cash, if you call Visa, they will refund you and deal with the vendor appropriately. When Visa set up their machine, it was on the condition that every buyer get charged the same whether they're using cash or credit card.

[Tarantula]

Do note, that is in violation of their credit card agreement. If they charge you $.25 for using a Visa card instead of cash, if you call Visa, they will refund you and deal with the vendor appropriately. When Visa set up their machine, it was on the condition that every buyer get charged the same whether they're using cash or credit card.

You misunderstood me. I mean, they will not accept credit card for payment unless your total is more than 4-5$ generally. The price doesn't change, but if you want to guy a gumball for 25¢, they're gonna ask for cash, and won't run a card.

[Cain]

Do hot dog vendors take a lot of their trade via card?

Depends, but increasingly yes. We also have a lot of fast food hamburger joints, and they all take credit and debit cards.

I don't know about SR4. From what I remember, however, it was the user's choice. He could set it to either require PIN/biometrics for every purchase or not, to either transfer lots of data to the seller or only the minimal necessary. There may have been one to not transmit any data to the seller, but the data is still getting transmitted to the bank and the bank is just affirming it's okay, so the information is still tracked, even if not tracked by the seller himself.

IIRC, it depended on the amount transacted. So, a small purchase would only require a PIN, while more expensive purchases required an increasing amount of biometric data.

I mean, they will not accept credit card for payment unless your total is more than 4-5$ generally. The price doesn't change, but if you want to guy a gumball for 25�, they're gonna ask for cash, and won't run a card.

Depending on your state laws, that may be illegal. I know that in Washington state, they can't apply a minimum purchase fee to your card, and they frown on minimum purchase policies in general.

[Tarantula]

No FEE! What is so hard to understand.

You walk up there with your gumball, and he says "thats 25 cents." You whip out your credit card, and he goes "no, sorry, gotta use cash, the amounts too low."

Why would he say that? Probably because it costs him close to 25cents to charge your card, so its not worth it for him to sell you the gumball.

[Cain]

No FEE! What is so hard to understand.

You walk up there with your gumball, and he says "thats 25 cents." You whip out your credit card, and he goes "no, sorry, gotta use cash, the amounts too low."

Why would he say that? Probably because it costs him close to 25cents to charge your card, so its not worth it for him to sell you the gumball.

Ahem.

Depending on your state laws, that may be illegal. I know that in Washington state, they can't apply a minimum purchase fee to your card, and they frown on minimum purchase policies in general.

While I see where you're coming from, that doesn't change the fact that minimum purchase policies might be illegal in your jurisdiction.

[Tarantula]

I don't think they can be illegal. They have the right to refuse to do business with a customer if they want.

[Cain]

Like I said, I don't know your state laws. I do know that you can't discriminate: if you allow some purchases with a credit card, you have to allow everyone to purchase with a credit card. Rather or not that translates into removing minimum purchase requirements is up to your local laws.

[nezumi]

The credit card thing is not a state law, it's part of the contract. When your hot dog vendor decides he wants to be able to accept Visa cards, he calls up Visa, pays them a down payment on the card reader and such, and they send him a fat contract. One of the conditions of that contract is 'you will not charge extra for using a credit card over cash' and, I suspect, 'you will not require a minimum purchase to allow for the use of credit card'. Should the vendor violate the agreement and Visa finds out, they go over, take his card reader, and he can no longer use Visa ever again (and knowing Visa, they may have other penalties wrapped into the contract). State jurisdiction doesn't really come into it.

IIRC, it depended on the amount transacted. So, a small purchase would only require a PIN, while more expensive purchases required an increasing amount of biometric data.

I should have been more clear.

I believe the situation is, when you're given your credstick, you can manually change the settings on your account to require more or less verification, just like right now I can set something that, in theory, online purchases require a password. The default would be as you described, but I believe a user could set it to require more identification with some purchases, or less with others (with suitable acceptance of liability). But again, I couldn't get a reference for you on that.

[Shiloh]

There are plenty of places over here in the UK that will charge you for credit cards (because they take a whopping three (3) percent gross commission) but not debit cards (which don't). I don't know whether these retailers are in breach of their CC trader contract, but it certainly occurs. The advent of legislation forcing cards to be accepted for small transactions would see some classes of shops ceasing to accept cards, or going out of business, given the competition from the big supermarket chains and the inherent lack of economies of scale of the smaller concern.

Some of these issues go away with the pervasive Matrix, but I still think there would be a place for a small-value anonymous "coin replacement" or even actual currency.

[Cain]

I should have been more clear.

I believe the situation is, when you're given your credstick, you can manually change the settings on your account to require more or less verification, just like right now I can set something that, in theory, online purchases require a password. The default would be as you described, but I believe a user could set it to require more identification with some purchases, or less with others (with suitable acceptance of liability). But again, I couldn't get a reference for you on that.

I'll agree to that. My paypal account is set up so that I get an email every time a purchase is made. IIRC, this is a standard, but optional, feature.

There are plenty of places over here in the UK that will charge you for credit cards (because they take a whopping three (3) percent gross commission) but not debit cards (which don't). I don't know whether these retailers are in breach of their CC trader contract, but it certainly occurs. The advent of legislation forcing cards to be accepted for small transactions would see some classes of shops ceasing to accept cards, or going out of business, given the competition from the big supermarket chains and the inherent lack of economies of scale of the smaller concern.

Some of these issues go away with the pervasive Matrix, but I still think there would be a place for a small-value anonymous "coin replacement" or even actual currency.

There was a major crackdown a few years ago, at least in Washington state. The news channels were all reporting that a vendor could not add a minimum-use charge for anything; Visa came down on some people as well. I suspect it's a matter of time before Visa comes knocking on doors in the UK; they're probably buys cracking down over here.

As far as the Shadowrun issues go, I think you hit on one of the reason certified cred still exists. It's the last replacement for cash out there.

[hyzmarca]

Its a convenient replacement for cash, since it can be used in automated and register-less systems. And since nuyen is the international standard, certified cred can be used in any jurisdiction without a hassle. This feature is most useful in a world where your corner grocery store and your shopping mall are technically in different countries. Actual cash still exist, but is much rarer.