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> Improved Invisibility
Machiavelli
post Sep 11 2008, 02:58 PM
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Yeah i know. Everbody is thinking...."Oh god, not again" but I have one or two simple little question about the following situation:

You are invisible, enemy fails the spell resistance test but he wants to attack you anyway. Acc. to the rules he has to swap from agility to intuition for this. If he wants to SHOOT you, he also has the modifier of -6 dice for hidden object. But what if he wants to hit you in melee combat? Same rules? My GM says that the core book only says: if you want to attack an invisible char. you have to apply the modifier for hidden enemy, but this modifier is only mentioned in ranged combat. If you see the modifiers in the melee section, there is no equivalent (at least it should have been mentioned there, or not?).

Is there possibly another section in the book that clarifies this "problem"? For me as player it would be great if this modifier is also used in melee combat but i need some help to persuade our GM^^
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Kurious
post Sep 11 2008, 03:04 PM
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Logically, both (range and melee) would follow the same rules.

After all, you are guessing (intuition) where the target is and still attacking blind (-6) in both circumstances.

Both are 'attacking blind' situations).
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Machiavelli
post Sep 11 2008, 04:48 PM
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But you donĀ“t have a specific example from the core-books for me?
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 11 2008, 05:10 PM
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Does the last paragraph of Invisibility/Improved Invisibility's spell description count as a "specific example?" Or are you more concerned about the Intuition part? If so, the rules are idiotically (shock of shocks) written from one point of view and completely ignores everything else. So yes, by the rules, that part only applies when shooting the target. But it should apply to melee as much as ranged combat.

In no way, however, is Target Hidden a ranged combat-only modifier. "Blind Fire" is just a variable name for it that applies to ranged combat.
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Tarantula
post Sep 11 2008, 05:36 PM
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Technically, there would be no penalty. Though, its arguable if you could even be allowed to make the attack, as you failed your resist against them and thusly don't see them.
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Blade Of The Ris...
post Sep 11 2008, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 11 2008, 03:58 PM) *
Yeah i know. Everbody is thinking...."Oh god, not again" but I have one or two simple little question about the following situation:

You are invisible, enemy fails the spell resistance test but he wants to attack you anyway. Acc. to the rules he has to swap from agility to intuition for this. If he wants to SHOOT you, he also has the modifier of -6 dice for hidden object. But what if he wants to hit you in melee combat? Same rules? My GM says that the core book only says: if you want to attack an invisible char. you have to apply the modifier for hidden enemy, but this modifier is only mentioned in ranged combat. If you see the modifiers in the melee section, there is no equivalent (at least it should have been mentioned there, or not?).

Is there possibly another section in the book that clarifies this "problem"? For me as player it would be great if this modifier is also used in melee combat but i need some help to persuade our GM^^


That's cos his npc is Zatoichi man...ur screwed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
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jago668
post Sep 11 2008, 06:28 PM
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So logically then. If you can't apply the modifier to your melee attack because it is a ranged combat modifier, and you are in melee combat. Then since you are unable to complete the attack equation then you are unable to attack. Thusly improved invisibility makes you immune to nonranged combat. Tada, I'm brilliant. Mwahahahahhaha.

However I would think it was a situation where a specific rule is trumping a general rule.
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Blade Of The Ris...
post Sep 11 2008, 07:10 PM
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Arsenal, p158, Maneuvers (combat techniques used by Martial Artists): Blind Fighting--> The character is adept at fighting without the sense of sight. The modifier for attacking a hidden target (seeTarget Hidden (Blind Fire) p141 SR4) in melee combat is reduced from -6 to -3. The target, whether invisible or simply hidden , must be within range of the character's other senses (hearing, smell, etc...).

Feel better now ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 11 2008, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE (jago668 @ Sep 11 2008, 12:28 PM) *
So logically then. If you can't apply the modifier to your melee attack because it is a ranged combat modifier, and you are in melee combat. Then since you are unable to complete the attack equation then you are unable to attack. Thusly improved invisibility makes you immune to nonranged combat. Tada, I'm brilliant. Mwahahahahhaha.

However I would think it was a situation where a specific rule is trumping a general rule.

Err, it's not a ranged combat-only modifier. Only the Intuition-instead-of-Agility part is specific to shooting (for no particular reason). The -6 penalty is universal and referenced multiple times in the rules.
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Tarantula
post Sep 11 2008, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 11 2008, 01:16 PM) *
Err, it's not a ranged combat-only modifier. Only the Intuition-instead-of-Agility part is specific to shooting (for no particular reason). The -6 penalty is universal and referenced multiple times in the rules.


SR4, 140, in the Ranged Combat Modifiers Table is the only listed location for Target hidden (blind fire) -6.

It is referenced as if it is applicable for all attacks, but it is only in the ranged combat modifiers table. No cover modifiers are listed in the melee combat table.
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Sep 12 2008, 02:10 AM
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If that's not good enough for you, note that the full darkness penalty is also -6. Same thing, really.
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