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> Technophobe that isn't Awakened
Sweaty Hippo
post Sep 11 2008, 08:34 PM
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Cybergear is useful to most runners except for Adept/Mages that want to remain "pure" so that their magic doesn't suffer.

But how feasible would a "cyber-less" character be that isn't an Adept/Mage/Technomancer?
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Tarantula
post Sep 11 2008, 08:37 PM
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Fairly craptacular. Maybe with surge you could get someone halfway decent... if you're lucky.
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Cain
post Sep 11 2008, 08:38 PM
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Feasible? It'd work as a character concept, and could be very interesting. In SR1, they had a tribesman archetype, who was a neo-primitivist. He used a bow, and his big strength was in being able to call on other tribesmen when needed.

Effective? Not so much. That's why the archetype was dropped, there was nothing he could do that a cybered guy couldn't do better.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 11 2008, 08:56 PM
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The big problem in SR4 is the limit on Qualities and starting Skill ratings. If you dropped both those limits for such a character (which wouldn't be fair to everyone else, mind you), you could possibly cook up a competitive character. But his strengths would/should be in areas where magic and chrome don't really shine. Things like Demolitions or an army of Contacts and Group Contacts. You could even make a pretty good Face, too, especially with the Empathy software in Arsenal coupled with a pair of sunglasses with a camera. Of course, nothing stops that broken Social Adept from doing the same, but they need to be reigned in by the GM either way.

Of course this assumes that by "technophobe" you meant more of an "augmentationphobe" as your post suggests. If he's a true technophobe, he's pretty screwed no matter what.
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Sweaty Hippo
post Sep 11 2008, 09:03 PM
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I meant "Technophobe" that does not rely on Essence-draining 'ware. Other technology is okay. Sorry if the title was misleading. If the title can be changed, please tell me how.
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Cain
post Sep 11 2008, 09:06 PM
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You can't change the title of a thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Anyway, I think the Tribesman is what you're asking for. I don't have my 1st Ed book on hand, so maybe someone else could chime in with a few statistics?
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Aaron
post Sep 11 2008, 09:21 PM
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Good attributes, plenty of skills and contacts, superb equipment, and plenty of performance-enhancing drugs will get you through a run with no Magic or Resonance rating and all 6.0 Essence intact.
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Cain
post Sep 11 2008, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 11 2008, 01:21 PM) *
Good attributes, plenty of skills and contacts, superb equipment, and plenty of performance-enhancing drugs will get you through a run with no Magic or Resonance rating and all 6.0 Essence intact.

With the rather brutal Addiction rules, that character won't have much of a lifespan. Before too long, his Essence will drop, and he won't even have augmentations to show for it.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 11 2008, 10:23 PM
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Well, there's no set time for when a GM requests an Addiction Test. Just when he does, it is brutal. The rules for that even imply that as long as you use them casually you shouldn't need an Addiction Test, so saving them for emergencies rather than staying doped up from start-to-finish of a run shouldn't be a problem. Unless the GM just wants to be a dick about it.
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Cain
post Sep 11 2008, 10:36 PM
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If he needs a hit or two every run in order to keep up, I'd say he needs to make tests somewhat more often than a "casual" user. But that's just me. Even if the physical addiction isn't especially strong, the psychological thrill of performance-enhancing drugs can be worse.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 11 2008, 10:42 PM
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I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that the rules allow for it, especially if the GM likes the idea of an unaugmented character.

Would be nice if there was some other way to get an Initiative Pass boost, though. They make it too important in these games. Maybe some kind of real-time tactical software similar to the Empathy program in Arsenal that doesn't work with other forms of Initiative improvements.
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Tarantula
post Sep 11 2008, 10:43 PM
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Edge. Just have the GM refresh it more often.
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Coldhand Jake
post Sep 11 2008, 11:22 PM
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Honestly, in 4E, a 6 Essence mundane can still kick ass. Even as a physical or gun character, think of the outstanding training a soldier has now. High skills and specializations in Close Combat, Firearms, use those 200 points of stats strongly, use your qualities to push your numbers high, and invest in good sensor gear. Smartguns, image link shades (with STRONG sensor options), earbuds, trodes, a good commlink and sim module, drones, good contacts...Sure, it won't be twinked hard, but you could -certainly- hold your own and be of a holistic mindset. Make sure to take Qualities to take advantage of these choices...but hell, I'd say it'd be a hell of a character.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 11 2008, 11:36 PM
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Except for the whole Initiatve Pass bit which, again, is the crux for why they're severely crippled.
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Cain
post Sep 12 2008, 12:27 AM
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And the fact that skills are capped at chargen. You can't get high dice pools in many skills, because most of your skills will be rank 4 or less.
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DocTaotsu
post Sep 12 2008, 12:39 AM
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I think the "best" 6 essence character you could come up with is probably someone with an army of contacts as mentioned earlier. If your growing up unaugmented in a world that's chuck full of it then you're going to have to have a lot of friends.
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Xerxos
post Sep 12 2008, 12:58 AM
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A friend of mine made a edge 8 character - a human with the "lucky" trait. Could be fun even unaugmented. Of course combat drugs would still be needed to get two IPs.
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DocTaotsu
post Sep 12 2008, 01:04 AM
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Ah yes... Mr. Lucky. We ran a Mr. Lucky in a home game and boy is that a broken character type ;p

Unless of course you're running "Edge refreshes every campaign". Then it gets interesting.
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Cain
post Sep 12 2008, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Sep 11 2008, 05:04 PM) *
Ah yes... Mr. Lucky. We ran a Mr. Lucky in a home game and boy is that a broken character type ;p

Unless of course you're running "Edge refreshes every campaign". Then it gets interesting.

Slowing down the refresh rate doesn't bother the Mr. Lucky types, but it definitely hurts the normal characters. They'll run out of Edge first.
QUOTE
A friend of mine made a edge 8 character - a human with the "lucky" trait. Could be fun even unaugmented. Of course combat drugs would still be needed to get two IPs.

You can spend Edge for extra IP's. Of course, if you're doing this too often, you'll easily run yourself out even with an Edge of 8.

What I want to see is a Lucky mage. That could break a game by itself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)
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Jaid
post Sep 12 2008, 02:03 AM
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i think you could have a sniper character without 'ware, or a purely stealth-based character who isn't intended to get into a fight. likewise, you could have a decent hacker or rigger.

not that i'm saying these concepts wouldn't be stronger with 'ware (they could most definitely benefit from 'ware, no question of that) but they could at least survive and do reasonably well without it. there dice pools won't be quite as good as it would be if they had some enhancements, but those concepts would at least be somewhat useful. wouldn't want to have 2 in the same group, one with 'ware and the other without, though...
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Sep 12 2008, 02:26 AM
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One of the editions had a 6 ESS detective archetype, IIRC.

Making the cyberphobe a metahuman would help, as well.

There's some tech that mimics cyberware, mostly involving sensors/audio/vision/smartgun. There are also a lot of gadgets that don't mimic the 'ware, but are exceedingly useful. And they're ones that the tricked out gunbunnies don't bother spending their nuyen on.

And don't forget 'trode rigs, for the "sensitive" hackers.

But like others have mentioned, there are few substitutes for added initiative passes.
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DocTaotsu
post Sep 12 2008, 03:25 AM
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Ah Jaid is right, you can sneak out a pretty decent non-cyber sniper. They won't be sniping people at 3 miles with full auto but they'll certainly be able to apply "pressure" to those right points.

I think the key here is specializiation. You just can't be good at as much if you don't have cyber or magic to help you along.
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Cain
post Sep 12 2008, 03:37 AM
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QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Sep 11 2008, 06:26 PM) *
One of the editions had a 6 ESS detective archetype, IIRC.

That was first ed. The no-cyber archetype was used as a template for Dirk Montgomery, although he did end up with a cybelimb in the end.

As far as the rest goes, there's no mundane archetype that can't be improved with cyber, and a good number of magical ones as well. For example, just about every archetype can benefit from having an attention co-processor. Your dice pools are going to be severely limited, and you won't be able to accomplish much. You may be barely viable, but you won't really shine, either.
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psychophipps
post Sep 12 2008, 03:48 AM
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Huh...my mundane character is doing pretty well for himself, thanks. Sure he has two pieces of rinky-dink cyber, Sound Damper and Flare Compensation, but he's otherwise a complete Mark 1, Mod 0 human. Add that he has Sensitive System, Sensitive Neural Structure, and SimSense Vertigo to keep him honest and he's looking even more mundanerific.

Of course, his 12-13 dice with his preferred weapons (without using an action to aim) says otherwise, but I digress... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

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Cain
post Sep 12 2008, 04:46 AM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 11 2008, 08:48 PM) *
Huh...my mundane character is doing pretty well for himself, thanks. Sure he has two pieces of rinky-dink cyber, Sound Damper and Flare Compensation, but he's otherwise a complete Mark 1, Mod 0 human. Add that he has Sensitive System, Sensitive Neural Structure, and SimSense Vertigo to keep him honest and he's looking even more mundanerific.

Of course, his 12-13 dice with his preferred weapons (without using an action to aim) says otherwise, but I digress... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Yeah, but the street sam in the base book has 15 or so, and he's not even optimized properly. Most combat specialists should be throwing a base of 15+, and 18+ is even better.
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