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[Sweaty Hippo]

This is a Warhammer 40K game where you play Inquisitors in service to the Empire of Man. It is not a war-game skirmish like other Warhammer games, though.

It is grim and gritty, where death can be just around the corner, and having your body, mind, or soul in peril is enough to end your career.

I have checked out the book, and it looks promising, although my biggest problem is that in the 40K universe, there are no real good guys, and all the major powers have performed horrible actions that makes it hard to sympathize with them. It may not be good for all groups, particularly ones that love to save the world, or play "shining exemplars of justice."

But the game looks at first glance to be really cool, and can handle games that are not "pit armies of mooks against each other." Not to mention that the game is so hardcore, even the NPC butchers carry electric chainsaws connected to giant batteries on their backs (and those are just used for cutting meat)!

[Synner667]

I have checked out the book, and it looks promising, although my biggest problem is that in the 40K universe, there are no real good guys, and all the major powers have performed horrible actions that makes it hard to sympathize with them. It may not be good for all groups, particularly ones that love to save the world, or play "shining exemplars of justice."

Yah, it's a great game...
...With about 20 years of background material [novels, games, articles, etc].

There's definitely place for "good guys", "save the world" and "shining exemplars of justice"...
...After all, isn't saving the world/imperium what being an Inquisitor [or his entourage] is all about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Check out the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies, for very good stories about being an Inquisitor - what they face, their methods, their groups, etc.

They're very much written in a RPG/novel cross over way.


The Emperor prevails !!

[jago668]

I've got the book, and it looks pretty fun. Though I haven't been able to play it yet.

I do see SH's point though. For example Eisenhorn mentions that to be an inquisitor you have to be able to kill thousands of innocent people to get the job done sometimes. Specific from the book is the opening chapter in the frozen storage vault thingies. So I can see where there are no "good" guys comment would come from. Inquisitors are very much, the end justifies the means, kind of people.

Now you could obviously play "good" guys. Just that really the setting isn't setup that way. The Imperium of Man isn't really "good". More like, slightly less evil than those guys over there, who are only slightly less evil than the soul raping daemons. Even the Tau and their "for the greater good" are not really good guys.

[Platinum Dragon]

Remember, while the imperium's armed forces are generally completely f***ing nuts (and they have to be considering what they go up against), there are still uncountable numbers of ordinary humans trying to make ends meet. Just because none of the factions in the table-top wargame are 'good guys' doesn't mean your characters in Dark Heresy can't be. Chances are they won't be paragons of virtue either, but they can be nicer than marines or inquisitors are allowed to.

[HappyDaze]

I'm running Dark Heresy at the moment, and my group of 4 is about to jump up to 7!

Anyway, it's great fun and FAR less rules heavy than SR, which makes running/playing it a breeze. The universe is rich and detailed while the specific sector of space offered in the core book is still open enough for the GM to put in whatever he likes without feeling like he's bucking canon - the best of both worlds really.

As for being good guys - well if you can stomach being shoot-them-in-the-face criminals in SR then you should be able to handle being agents of the Inquisition. Sometimes you'll have to use terrible methods to ensure the continued survival of mankind, but mankind's future rests on your shoulders and your enemies are many and terrible.

Great fun!

[Malokei]

I recently got to stand in and watch a session run. A lot them were rules lawyers and I've seen them play other systems so it was nothing new. The GM on the other hand was solid. He kept rules from being a slow down and kept it true to Dark Heresy. It made it a solid enjoyable to listen to experience. Though I may not play it is still a game I'd consider running if Shadowrun wasn't an addiction for all my players.

[PBTHHHHT]

Yeah, ran a small module and overall it's not bad. Only thing was the falling damages rules, that was... interesting. Anyway, I can't wait to run the next one after work gets less hectic.

[Wesley Street]

I've read through it. It's... too depressing for me. I like games that allow for an emotional range beyond YOU LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE THERE IS ONLY WAR!

I remember being introduced to WH40K in junior high school and asking a friend why all these various races and factions were fighting each other. He couldn't give me an answer.

[Stahlseele]

Marines fight: FER TEH EMPRAH!
Guards fight: For The Imperium, or at least for whoever threatens to shoot us if we don't!
Sororitas fight: For the Holy god-Emperor, everything else has to burn!
Inquisitors fight: Because we are right and we know it, every alien, mutant and heretic is Scum that is only taking up valuable ressources that the imperium could put to a better use!
Chaos fight: For their Gods, one or all of them, to get moar Power etc.
Eldar fight: because the others are in the way and don't know better.
tau fight: for the greater communist nazi good in space!
Dark Eldar fight: because they like to make other people suffer and they want to steal other people stuff
Orks fight: 'cause it's fun! there's somewhere a good quote regarding this. i think some inquisitor or something like that basically said, that the orks are the perfect species, because they don't know stress and don't suffer from war at all and actually have fun with it all

[hyzmarca]

I've got the book, and it looks pretty fun. Though I haven't been able to play it yet.

I do see SH's point though. For example Eisenhorn mentions that to be an inquisitor you have to be able to kill thousands of innocent people to get the job done sometimes. Specific from the book is the opening chapter in the frozen storage vault thingies. So I can see where there are no "good" guys comment would come from. Inquisitors are very much, the end justifies the means, kind of people.

Now you could obviously play "good" guys. Just that really the setting isn't setup that way. The Imperium of Man isn't really "good". More like, slightly less evil than those guys over there, who are only slightly less evil than the soul raping daemons. Even the Tau and their "for the greater good" are not really good guys.

The easiest way to paint the Inquisitors as the good guys is to show the PCs why the end justifies the means. If they're a bit ambivalent about capturing psykers and sending them off to their doom, have the PCs witness first hand what happens why an innocent psyker slips up and accidentally lets a demon into his body, the suffering and immense devastation wrought by a single being. Once they do, they'll never question the morality of their actions again.

But watch out for rehashes of a certain recurring Monty Python sketch.

[jago668]

I don't have anything against playing them. As someone pointed out, we all play shadowrun so we shouldn't have too big a problem with it. I was just pointing out that you can view them both ways. That they can be good if you want them to, or not.

Personally, I don't think they are "good". Necessary and doing a rough job with what they have, sure. As a quick example using a daemon as the threat (in keeping in line with your above). Say you know that a pregnant woman in an area is going to give birth to some kinda daemon baby thing. If it is born billions will be corrupted/die. You search and find all the pregnant women in the area (random number 1,000). What do you do with them? What if you can't determine which it is going to be?

There will be varying answers. Yet you and I both know there would be some inquisitors whose answer would be, "kill them all and burn the bodies." Are they wrong considering the potential outcome of allowing it to be born? Are they really "good" at that point. Very much fits into, the end justifies the means. As an Order I don't think the Inquisition is evil, but by no means are they good either. There will be evil inquisitors, good ones, and ones just doing their jobs. So you can play whatever variant fits for any particular campaign. I was more refering to the entirety of the Imperium of Man, and the Inquisition. It isn't good, and virtuous, and pure. The Imperium is all about self preservation. Doing what you have to, to stay alive does not make one good.

I can see myself clear to saying they aren't evil (retracting my slilghtly less evil than those guys over there statement), but they are a far cry from being the good guys.

[HappyDaze]

I can see myself clear to saying they aren't evil (retracting my slilghtly less evil than those guys over there statement), but they are a far cry from being the good guys.

Much like runners... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The Imperium opposes evil but that does not make it good. That's not really any more depresing than SR, Vampire, or a host of other games out there.

[HappyDaze]

I've read through it. It's... too depressing for me. I like games that allow for an emotional range beyond YOU LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE THERE IS ONLY WAR!

With billions of worlds and countless masses of humans, there's going to be plenty of emotional range. Not every world is on a war footing - those that are will be the ones highlighted in the minatures games - and the Dark Heresy rules concentrate on the 'interior matters' of the Imperium. If your game ventures into an active war zone you're likely to get very bleak and depressing - like a grim war movie set to 11,000! On the other hand, within the more stable sections of the Imperium, the full range of human experiences are present.

I remember being introduced to WH40K in junior high school and asking a friend why all these various races and factions were fighting each other. He couldn't give me an answer.

That might have something to do with the fact he was in junior high. The WH40K universe is built on the assumption that humanity will carry a manifest destiny concept to covert the galaxy. Along the way they meet aliens that oppose this (Eldar, Tau) and thus become enemies due to a conflisct of goals. There are also enemies that are so by their very nature (Chaos/daemons, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids) whether totally alien or even daemonic. However, most of Dark Heresy concerns itself with the hidden dangers that exist within the Imperium itself (generally humanity along with some daemonic and alien influences).

[Wesley Street]

Well that sounds cheerful... I'm skimming through the Fantasy Flight site now and this doesn't sound like the kind of game that would appeal to me. But that's just me and I'm not making any value judgments. I know WH40K is very popular and I get a kick out of the amount of detail artists can pull out of the little lead sculptures. But the setting and tone give me the heebie-jeebies.

I grew up on Star Trek and enjoy space sci-fi games like 2300AD where I can play anything from a farmer to a journalist to a diplomat to a soldier.

[PBTHHHHT]

Well that sounds cheerful... I'm skimming through the Fantasy Flight site now and this doesn't sound like the kind of game that would appeal to me. But that's just me and I'm not making any value judgments. I know WH40K is very popular and I get a kick out of the amount of detail artists can pull out of the little lead sculptures. But the setting and tone give me the heebie-jeebies.

I grew up on Star Trek and enjoy space sci-fi games like 2300AD where I can play anything from a farmer to a journalist to a diplomat to a soldier.

But do you really want to play a farmer in a universe that's at a constant state of war? And diplomats? Well, there are adepts, scum, and such which are kinda equivalent. Actually scum is the closest one to diplomat. This is WH40K bullets and chain swords do the talking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[HappyDaze]

I grew up on Star Trek and enjoy space sci-fi games like 2300AD where I can play anything from a farmer to a journalist to a diplomat to a soldier.

Any of those backgounds/roles are possible within Dark Heresy too. The assumption of the core rules is that you go from whatever walk of life into the service of the Inquisition, but this doesn't have to be the case anymore than you have to be a shadowrunner in SR.

[Malicant]

The Imperium opposes evil but that does not make it good. That's not really any more depresing than SR, Vampire, or a host of other games out there.

No, it opposes the corruption of Chaos. The Imperium itself is evil. Thousands of people are killed every day just to prevent the Emperor from getting out of his stasis (or to keep him from dying, depending on who you ask). The Imperium would rather burn a world to the ground than let even one heretic life. Unfortunatly, they don't really have a choice about it, but from our viewpoint they are evil.

[Synner667]

Define "good", define "evil"

The Imperium is a huge, galaxy spanning collection of worlds and people...
...Most of whom are living "normal" lives [as normal as they can be, considering the way the Imperium is run]

The Imperium isn't "good" or "bad" - it's an organisation.

Individuals may be "good" or "evil", and there's always a balance to be made...
...Policemen do it all the time = catch the smalltime criminal, or spend the time on a bigger fish.

That doesn't make them "bad" or "evil"

There's nothing to stop a Dark Heresy campaign being based on a single planet, and run like high-tech Call of Cthulhu or [legal] Shadowrun...
...Several times in the novels, mention is made of Inquisitors [and their teams] spending years rooting out cultists before or after a major event.

[HappyDaze]

No, it opposes the corruption of Chaos.

Among others, yes. Is that not a laudable action?

The Imperium itself is evil.

I do not think that word means what you think it means. The Imperium may do harsh actions when necessary, but they do not inflict horrors and hardship without cause.

Thousands of people are killed every day just to prevent the Emperor from getting out of his stasis (or to keep him from dying, depending on who you ask).

Not people, psykers. Weak and vulnerable psykers that present the very real possibility that they would allow daemons to access the material world were they left alone. Instead they serve in death to allow for better navigation through the warp. A noble death in service to the Imperium rather than contiued existance as a entry point for unspeakable evil.

The Imperium would rather burn a world to the ground than let even one heretic life.

No, they would not. What you refer to is Exterminatus and it is only called in on worlds that are fully without hope of redemption. One man gets a squad of Inquisitorial acolytes (that's what the PCs generally will be) or an assassin's bullet.

Unfortunatly, they don't really have a choice about it, but from our viewpoint they are evil.

I would avoid using the 'imperial our' on this one - I certainly don't see them as evil, just grim and harsh.

[hyzmarca]

Among others, yes. Is that not a laudable action?

Maybe, maybe not. It is all a matter of perspective. From one point of view the forces of Chaos are undeniably the good guys, from one point of view.

[HappyDaze]

Maybe, maybe not. It is all a matter of perspective. From one point of view the forces of Chaos are undeniably the good guys, from one point of view.

The forces of Chaos are hostile to human existance. From any rational human perspective, opposing them is a 'good thing'.

[hyzmarca]

The forces of Chaos are hostile to human existance. From any rational human perspective, opposing them is a 'good thing'.

The forces of Chaos aren't really hostile to human existence. They are, after all, a product of thought and emotion manifested in the Warp. Without humans and other thinking feeling beings, there would be no Chaos at all. Rather, the Chaos Gods and their daemons, being imbalanced personifications of certain aspects of collective sentient emotion and psyche, tend towards excess in one thing. Some would see this single-minded devotion to an ideal to be laudable, though it does tend to result in billions upon billions of deaths.

[HappyDaze]

The forces of Chaos aren't really hostile to human existence.

I disagree with this, and your further sentences don't really support the idea you present here. How do you propose that the forces of Chaos are not hostile to humanity's continued survival and advancement?

[Malicant]

Guys, there are no perspectives in Warhammer 40k. Everyone is evil. Well, maybe not the Tyranids. But everyone else is. The only thing that matters, where you stand in the conflict between order and chaos. Good or evil do not matter in that universe, so the only definition of those words that apply are ours.

I do not think that word means what you think it means. The Imperium may do harsh actions when necessary, but they do not inflict horrors and hardship without cause.

You are kidding me, right? Let's say the Imperium locates a cult on a highly populated world. They kill them, but maybe one member escapes and eludes them. Or maybe not, thaey are not sure for some reason. What do they do? They burn the whole fucking world to the ground. Because of the potential that one guy might still be out there. Yeah, harsh might not be the word to use here.

Oh, and Chaos does not view itself as good, because, again, that those not matter to them. At all. They view themselfs as Chaos and that's kind of it.

This is Warhammer we are talking about. There are no greys, there is also no good, because the "good guys" have to do really, really bad things so the "bad guys" don't get any advantage. Also, the "good guys" do really, really bad things because they have no idea what happens if they don't do them.

Any Good vs. Evil discussion in this Universe is so pointless. Corruption vs. Integrity would be more appropiate.

[HappyDaze]

You are kidding me, right? Let's say the Imperium locates a cult on a highly populated world. They kill them, but maybe one member escapes and eludes them. Or maybe not, thaey are not sure for some reason. What do they do? They burn the whole fucking world to the ground. Because of the potential that one guy might still be out there.

Bullshit. You're going by the much simpler flavor of the mini-games which focus on 'lost causes' on the frontlines of war rather than what the RPG is focussed on. If it were that common to torch worlds there would be little need for the Inquisition, and the Dark Heresy RPG goes into much more detail on what happens than your simplistic example. The Imperium does not inflict horrors simply for the sake of doing so.

Any Good vs. Evil discussion in this Universe is so pointless.

They can bve seen as pointless anywhere, but that's a much broader topic. Regardless, the Imperium can be said to act for the betterment of humanity, and as a human, that makes them the 'good guys' to me.