[X] My Assistant

[Malicant]

Bullshit. You're going by the much simpler flavor of the mini-games...

Like the mini-game Warhammer 40k. Which has a lot of lore, you know. Well, I guess you don't, but let's just say, the Imperium of Man is evil. You as of yet have failed to produce any facts or examples that contradict this, because they simply do not exist. Religous fanatics tend to not to be the nice guys, never, ever.

...which focus on 'lost causes' on the frontlines of war rather than what the RPG is focussed on. If it were that common to torch worlds there would be little need for the Inquisition, and the Dark Heresy RPG goes into much more detail on what happens than your simplistic example. The Imperium does not inflict horrors simply for the sake of doing so.

Never said that. They still inflict horrors. If you even remotely say that killing over a 1000 innocent people every day on Terra alone can even slightly be justified as anything else than evil, you sir are a sick, demented person.
Exterminatus might not be common, but you still would need Inquisitors to find out which worlds to burn. Official policy regarding anything touched by Chaos was still "burn it" last time I checked. If Dark Heresy changed that... well, it lied and you fell for Imperial Propaganda. You can't tell the Imperial Guard that you will kill them all after they defeated the Legions of Chaos, now can you? Bad for the moral. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Synner667]

Define "good", define "evil"

The Imperium is a huge, galaxy spanning collection of worlds and people...
...Most of whom are living "normal" lives [as normal as they can be, considering the way the Imperium is run]

The Imperium isn't "good" or "bad" - it's an organisation.

Individuals may be "good" or "evil", and there's always a balance to be made...
...Policemen do it all the time = catch the smalltime criminal, or spend the time on a bigger fish.

That doesn't make them "bad" or "evil".

Like the mini-game Warhammer 40k. Which has a lot of lore, you know. Well, I guess you don't, but let's just say, the Imperium of Man is evil. You as of yet have failed to produce any facts or examples that contradict this, because they simply do not exist. Religous fanatics tend to not to be the nice guys, never, ever.

Considering that WH40K and DH share the same universe, and are different aspects of each other, and focus on different things...
...You would also consider Chess an evil game because you can't have them do anything but fight.
WH40K is not meant to represent anything other than war...
...And I'm sure that if you release an RPG set in the DH universe that focuses on the daily life of George the Heroic Shop Keeper, who is nice to people and never does anything you consider "evil" or "bad", it'll be really interesting and there'll be lots to do.

But then again, maybe not.

Never said that. They still inflict horrors. If you even remotely say that killing over a 1000 innocent people every day on Terra alone can even slightly be justified as anything else than evil, you sir are a sick, demented person.
Exterminatus might not be common, but you still would need Inquisitors to find out which worlds to burn. Official policy regarding anything touched by Chaos was still "burn it" last time I checked. If Dark Heresy changed that... well, it lied and you fell for Imperial Propaganda. You can't tell the Imperial Guard that you will kill them all after they defeated the Legions of Chaos, now can you? Bad for the moral. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

You know, religion is a funny thing...
...The people involved are convinced they're right and everyone else if wrong.
The God-Emperor is supposed to be 10,000 years old and uses the life force of psychics to stay alive [using the term, in a very loose sense]
The myth is that his own psychic powers are all that stop Humanity being overwhelmed, overwhelmed by things that have shown themselves to be very dangerous.
Your view is that 1 man should die, ensuring that many billions of people who are currently being protected by that 1 man, should also die.
Not sure how that would go down if you tried to use that as a reason to kill him.

If Dark Heresy changed that... well, it lied and you fell for Imperial Propaganda. You can't tell the Imperial Guard that you will kill them all after they defeated the Legions of Chaos, now can you? Bad for the moral.

What are you wittering about ??

I would ask, that if you hate DH so much - because you can only really play an evil Human Imperialist, why would you play DH ??

[Platinum Dragon]

I've read through it. It's... too depressing for me. I like games that allow for an emotional range beyond YOU LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE THERE IS ONLY WAR!

I remember being introduced to WH40K in junior high school and asking a friend why all these various races and factions were fighting each other. He couldn't give me an answer.

The orks are a fun-loving race, free of responsibility other than satisfying the urge to have fun. What an ork finds fun, above all else, is proving that he's stronger than other people around him. In the event that a particularly strong ork manages to satisfactorily prove that he is stronger than all the nearby orks, he will seek out new competition (read, any living thing nearby, including other sentient races). Due to this, the only possible outcome of a meeting between an ork and a non ork is combat.

Tyranids are like a universal ant hive. They exist to propagate their species, and everything is treated as a resource. As a result, inhabited worlds that don't wish to be harvested must needs take up arms.

The necron exist solely to wipe out all life, precluding any form of peaceful contact with other species.

Chaos is a lot like a cancer - it arises naturally as a result of sentience and seeks to infect any other cells nearby, not because it has an agenda, but because that is simply how it works. The only cure is to cut off the infected flesh. The Tau are actually rather lucky in that they are immune to the psychic corruption of chaos, but they've still been subjected to enough of chaos' physical horrors to know that they must be exterminated at all costs.

Dark Eldar to be honest, I have no idea why they're evil since I never cared much about their fluff, but basically they view everyone in the universe who isn't dark eldar as a slave or a threat, so yeah, peace is kind of out of the question.

Eldar are one of the 'nicer' races in 40K, but they view the imperium and the tau as misguided children, and tend to be standoffish. In return, the imperium don't trust them, being wary of their deciet. Occasionally alliances between eldar and the imperium will occur if there is a common enemy, but far more often they will come into conflict over territorial disputes. Eldar are also directly responsible for one of the chaos gods.

Tau are basically innocent, as far as the 40K universe goes, and tend to try sending diplomats when they meet someone new. They've managed to take control of several imperial worlds this way, and thus are seen as a threat. I don't know much about the relation between the eldar and the tau.

The Imperium of Man believes itself to have a righteous cause, spreading the word of the god-emperor to the stars. They are constantly beset on all sides by enemies, and often from within by the threat of chaos. As a result, they have massive armies spanning the galaxy, and tend to view anything out of the ordinary as 'corrupt,' since even risking potential contact with chaos can have terrible consequences.

So basically, it boils down to there being only 3 races civilised enough to do anything other than try to slaughter each other, and two of them being paranoid nutbags who wouldn't trust anyone as far as they could throw a star.

That said, I agree with you that the setting is a little depressing.

Maybe, maybe not. It is all a matter of perspective. From one point of view the forces of Chaos are undeniably the good guys, from one point of view.

There is no point of view from which chaos can be seen as the good guys. Khorne's only purpose is to murder everything in his way, and slaughtering everyone you meet pegs you soundly as a 'bad guy.' Slaneesh is the god of physical sensation and excess - doesn't sound so bad, right? Wrong. Slaneeshi followers will indulge their tastes no matter the cost to those around them, and, eventually, strive to greater and greater excess in an attempt to match the last high, going so far theat they damage theri bodies to the point that they are no longer even able to feel the sensations they crave so badly, being driven to insanity by their needs, they take it out on those around them. Also soundly in the 'bad guy' camp. Tzeench is the god of secrets and power, and, as a rule, gives you just enough rope to hang yourself with. He's the least 'nasty' of the chaos gods, but also the most insidious, opening up antire worlds to chaos infection. Bad guy. Nurgle is an interesting one, and you could probably make the best case for him being a good guy - he's essentially innocent, a happy, bouncy chaos god who is oblivious to the suffering that his plagues cause the people around him. He may not have the ill intent the other chaos gods display, but he still causes the loss of countless lives and souls. Bad guy, even if he doesn't realise he is.

Chaos = bad guys. End of story.

You are kidding me, right? Let's say the Imperium locates a cult on a highly populated world. They kill them, but maybe one member escapes and eludes them. Or maybe not, thaey are not sure for some reason. What do they do? They burn the whole fucking world to the ground. Because of the potential that one guy might still be out there. Yeah, harsh might not be the word to use here.

Incorrect. A single cult will be hunted down until it is stamped out. An entire nation infected by chaos is reason to bring in armed forces to halt the spread of the taint. Only when an entire world is infected (usually by chaos or tyranids, though orks are a candidate) and what little population is left alive has no hope of survival is exterminatus ordered. I suggest you read up on your fluff before you blow things out of proportion.

[Platinum Dragon]

If you even remotely say that killing over a 1000 innocent people every day on Terra alone can even slightly be justified as anything else than evil, you sir are a sick, demented person.

The imperium has a choice. Sacrifice 1000 psykers each day to sustain the god-emperor's life - the god emperor who's will alone keeps chaos stuck in the warp for the most part, I might add - or allow the emperor to die, causing the walls between reality and the warp to crumble, allowing chaos to run rampant in the universe and sealing the fate of every living thing in the universe to unspeakable torment (except the orks, who will go down fighting and have a blast doing it) and eventual destruction.

1000 people per day, or every living being in the universe? Suddenly 1000 people per day doesn't seem so bad does it? Sacrificing 1000 innocents may be evil in an objective sense, but given the alternative, the imperium has no choice - and thus are not inherently evil. They certainly aren't good guys, but they have a reasonable justification for being paranoid nutbags.

[PBTHHHHT]

Isn't the god emperor also the shining beacon in warpspace that astropaths use to navigate through the warp. Without which the Imperium would be at a disadvantage at space travel?

[jago668]

Well considering that chaos didn't pour through before the emporer, I doubt it will if he dies. The only real side effect of him dieing would be the loss of the warpspace signal used to navigate. Though for all we know the sacrifice of the 1000 per day might be fueling that. The Imperium is very big on propaganda, and likely doesn't even know what any of their stuff even does anymore.

[Malicant]

Considering that WH40K and DH share the same universe, and are different aspects of each other, and focus on different things...
...You would also consider Chess an evil game because you can't have them do anything but fight.
WH40K is not meant to represent anything other than war...

What the hell are you rambling on about? There is a huge pile of friggin' books full with lore Dark Heresy cannot hope to compete with under the WH40K label. Yeah, I think that is kind of more reliable than one single book meant for looooooooooooooooow-level play.

The imperium has a choice. Sacrifice 1000 psykers each day to sustain the god-emperor's life - the god emperor who's will alone keeps chaos stuck in the warp for the most part, I might add - or allow the emperor to die, causing the walls between reality and the warp to crumble, allowing chaos to run rampant in the universe and sealing the fate of every living thing in the universe to unspeakable torment (except the orks, who will go down fighting and have a blast doing it) and eventual destruction.

Well, no. Those sacrifices keep the Emperor in stasis, while providing a beacon in the Immaterium that helps navigation. The God-Emperor might or might not cease existing if the Emperor ever awakens. But even if the Emperor died and the God-Emperor ceased to be reality would not collapse, although some sects sure believe just that. Humanity would go down the gutter, though.

1000 people per day, or every living being in the universe? Suddenly 1000 people per day doesn't seem so bad does it? Sacrificing 1000 innocents may be evil in an objective sense, but given the alternative, the imperium has no choice - and thus are not inherently evil. They certainly aren't good guys, but they have a reasonable justification for being paranoid nutbags.

The sacrifiece of 1000 innocents per day on Terra alone just for a good lightshow in the Immaterium is not bad, ne? You sir need therapy. The Imperium has a choice, and not the one you mentioned, they simply chose the easier way of killing a bunch of people for no reason other to uphold a shitty Status Quo.

The Imperium is very big on propaganda, and likely doesn't even know what any of their stuff even does anymore.

It's the Dark Ages in space. Knowledge is power and the clergy does not want anyone beside them to have power, so knowledge is more or less banned. Even the Mashine Cult does not really know what they are doing, calling computers "mashine spirits". Bunch of hicks, if you ask me. "And then his hand started to glow in divine light" - "That was a flashlight, stupid" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

And just to humor the audience:

Define "good"

Not killing 1000 psykers per day.

define "evil"

Killing 1000 psykers per day.

[HappyDaze]

Isn't the god emperor also the shining beacon in warpspace that astropaths use to navigate through the warp. Without which the Imperium would be at a disadvantage at space travel?

Yes, that is correct. The deaths of the psykers powers what is essentially a galactic-scale lightlhouse within the warp that also has the effect of lessening the power of Chaos within the space it covers (it dims towards the 'Halo worlds' on the outer fringes of the galaxy).

The sacrifiece of 1000 innocents per day on Terra alone just for a good lightshow in the Immaterium is not bad, ne? You sir need therapy. The Imperium has a choice, and not the one you mentioned, they simply chose the easier way of killing a bunch of people for no reason other to uphold a shitty Status Quo.

In scale, this is FAR less than the troops 'sacrificed' by the United States and Britain in the current operations in Afghanistan and Iraq for the purposes of making the world 'safer' (essentially the same purpose), but it would be FAR too simplistic to call these RL nations evil. I think your blood-colored-glasses need to be cleaned, and your sense of what eveil is needs to be rexamined.

[HappyDaze]

What the hell are you rambling on about? There is a huge pile of friggin' books full with lore Dark Heresy cannot hope to compete with under the WH40K label. Yeah, I think that is kind of more reliable than one single book meant for looooooooooooooooow-level play.

The wargame-based fluff is not necessarily relevant to the RPG anymore than the SR videogame is relevant to the fluff of SR. Each comes from the same IP but is fully indepedent both mechanically and fluff-ily. If you're playing the Dark Heresy RPG then it's own fluff (currently three books and a booklet from the GM's screen) matters far more in game than 100 WH40K products (many of which simply replace earlier products and rewrite the games fluff in contradictory ways).

[hyzmarca]

There is no point of view from which chaos can be seen as the good guys. Khorne's only purpose is to murder everything in his way, and slaughtering everyone you meet pegs you soundly as a 'bad guy.'

Is there not some beauty and nobility in this purity of purpose?

[HappyDaze]

Is there not some beauty and nobility in this purity of purpose?

About as much beauty and nobility in the purity of the ethnic purges in Africa. None.

[Platinum Dragon]

RE: 1000 psykers and the God-Emprah

As HappyDaze mentioned, the Emprah's will lessens the effect of chaos. If you actually go back and read the old fluff (before everything became C'tan'sfaultlulz), the emperor actually holds chaos at bay through sheer will. This is why chaos can only enter the material universe through warp rifts (like the Eye of Terror) or by piggy-backing a ride on a ship that's leaving the warp, rather than anywhere it damn well pleases.

The wargame-based fluff is not necessarily relevant to the RPG anymore than the SR videogame is relevant to the fluff of SR. Each comes from the same IP but is fully indepedent both mechanically and fluff-ily. If you're playing the Dark Heresy RPG then it's own fluff (currently three books and a booklet from the GM's screen) matters far more in game than 100 WH40K products (many of which simply replace earlier products and rewrite the games fluff in contradictory ways).

Wait, what? I was under the impression that DH was canon, kinda like WFRP is to WFB.

And yes, the fluff re-writes are annoying and poorly done. The Necrons were supposed to be soulless machines bent on wiping out life from the universe dammit, not lolGitSgonewrong.

[hyzmarca]

About as much beauty and nobility in the purity of the ethnic purges in Africa. None.

You have no sense of romance.

[Platinum Dragon]

You have no sense of romance.

Romance:

1. a novel or other prose narrative depicting heroic or marvelous deeds, pageantry, romantic exploits, etc., usually in a historical or imaginary setting.
2. the colorful world, life, or conditions depicted in such tales.
3. a medieval narrative, originally one in verse and in some Romance dialect, treating of heroic, fantastic, or supernatural events, often in the form of allegory.
4. a baseless, made-up story, usually full of exaggeration or fanciful invention.
5. a romantic spirit, sentiment, emotion, or desire.
6. romantic character or quality.
7. a romantic affair or experience; a love affair.
8. (initial capital letter) Also, Romanic. Also called Romance languages. the group of Italic Indo-European languages descended since a.d. 800 from Latin, as French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, Provençal, Catalan, Rhaeto-Romanic, Sardinian, and Ladino. Abbreviation: Rom.
–verb (used without object)
9. to invent or relate romances; indulge in fanciful or extravagant stories or daydreams.
10. to think or talk romantically.
–verb (used with object)
11. Informal. a. to court or woo romantically; treat with ardor or chivalrousness: He's currently romancing a very attractive widow.
b. to court the favor of or make overtures to; play up to: They need to romance the local business community if they expect to do business here.
–adjective
12. (initial capital letter) Also, Romanic. of, pertaining to, or noting Romance: a Romance language.

Synonyms: adventure, affair, amour, charm, court, courtship, exaggerate, fable, fancy, fantasy, fling, gest, geste, liaison, love, novel, sentiment, story, tale


---

I do not think that word means what you think it means. Seriously, it's a pretty big leap to ramonticise Khorne solely because of his singularity of purpose.

[Entropian]

I think perhaps what he meant is you have no sense of HUMOR.

[hyzmarca]

I do not think that word means what you think it means. Seriously, it's a pretty big leap to ramonticise Khorne solely because of his singularity of purpose.

Conan, what is best in life?

[Fortune]

Conan, what is best in life?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

[Grinder]

I think perhaps what he meant is you have no sense of HUMOR.

Humor? No way! This is SPARTA! ehm... DUMPSHOCK! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Platinum Dragon]

Conan, what is best in life?

To hear him tell it, to see your enemies driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women (I forget the exact quote). Which, for the most part, he didn't live by, not to mention the fact that Conan was more fantasy than romance (yes, I am aware that they are all but sister-genres).

Plus, Khorne doesn't have time for hearing the women's lamentations, he's too busy killing them and the children to notice. You might romaticise a being of pure angry, but that says more about you than it. >.>

Aulthough, I think it's more likely you're just playing devil's advocate for the hell (ba-dum, tshh) of it.

[Particle_Beam]

Suffer not the Mutant, the Witch and the Heretic to live.

As for the Chaos-Gods, they've become quite one-dimensional, antropomorphic, and quite imbecilic, since 3rd edition Wh40k.
Keep in mind that Chaos will engulf the entire galaxy anyway. According to 5th edition, the Inquisition doesn't catch all psykers, many worlds have openly and successfully rebelled from the despotic Imperium, and a lot of warp-storms are erupting over a thousand planets, unleashing unlimited legions of the Fell Powers. Because more and more of mankind is becoming psychic, more and more become possessed by the daemons, and so eventually bring down a planet.

Of course, there is the problem with the star-swarms from some unknown galaxy, eating all life, and so all source of energy for the gods of chaos. It all depends who will destroy the milky way first. The Tyranids, gobling up all life, killing so the Warp Gods, or Chaos, by turning the entire galaxy into a warp-hole.

My bet is on the Orks, for Gork and Mork (or was it Mork and Gork?) shall make the four fledgling gods of Chaos eat worms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)