Question about Clustering, What counts? Options

[Ol' Scratch]

Case in point: you have cybereyes and cyberears... both are device rating 3. They can only run video and audio specific software respectively. Now just because you cluster them... you can run anything your heart desires?... I don't think so. Strictly reading RAW they can't even run an agent or security outside maybe encrypt (full node encryption) as it's not related to optical processing/image enhancement. (the only thing the cybereye is designed and optomized for).
I similarly don't buy that you can load generic firewall Mk6 onto the cybereyes or ears because they run special OS firmware, not generic commlink computer OS.

Out of curiosity, where did you find these rulings?

[Falconer]

Funk: page 48 of unwired... basically has an entire paragraph devoted to peripheral nodes are very specialized and can only run certain programs. This isn't in the fluff section but int he actual rules text.

Quote: "Peripherals use the same rules as standard nodes (see Devices and Software Ratings, p206 SR4), with some restrictions. They are only able to run a single persona, and can only run a program they are designed to use."
The problem is the book never defines, what falls under that second sentence. Only reason I can think is that they're giving that discretion entirely to the GM or someone in playtesting/editting goofed.

The next paragraph states that their system rating and response are unlinked specifically because they're so limited.

As far as I can tell RAW, there's no reason they can't be upgraded. Just it's not clear why bother saying they're special, they're special... then after that anything goes?


Cain: yeah I'm going over the persona and agent bits now as I really don't understand that portion yet... that makes sense to a degree on the agent... But I'm wondering if that discussion predates unwired or not. Regarding devices... the chart on p214 is pretty clear... most things are only rating 1, some are rating 2 devices... headware makes the grade at device 3, commlinks are device grade 4.

I'm just trying to find how to square those two paragraphs specifically detailing peripheral devices and their limitations. I'm quite sincere in asking... why bother printing those if they have no meaning? If they do have meaning... how does it resolve in play? The simplest thing is to just ignore it, but it just doesn't seem quite right... the kind of thing a GM will burn you for abusing if you're too blatant about it. (I'm very big on turnabout is fair play, don't abuse the rules and they won't be abused on you I find).

[Ol' Scratch]

Hmm. The very last paragraph of that section (Unwired p. 48) specifically states that when clustered, they help form a "super-node" that isn't limited in the same way as its component parts are. So yeah, that does seem weird. But c'est la vie.

And why on earth does a refrigerator have a Signal of 3?

[Cain]

I'm just trying to find how to square those two paragraphs specifically detailing peripheral devices and their limitations. I'm quite sincere in asking... why bother printing those if they have no meaning? If they do have meaning... how does it resolve in play? The simplest thing is to just ignore it, but it just doesn't seem quite right... the kind of thing a GM will burn you for abusing if you're too blatant about it. (I'm very big on turnabout is fair play, don't abuse the rules and they won't be abused on you I find).

As far as the Firewall goes, it says that peripheral nodes can only run programs made for them-- but Firewall isn't a program, exactly, it's part of the OS (BBB, p 212).

I think the meaning of those paragraphs is to show how you can interconnect everything, making the clothes you wear into a distributed network. Peripherals aren't meant to be good at computing, but they are meant to do something well. By cross-linking them, and slaving them to other devices, you can make then into a stronger node; but a network out of high-grade commlinks should be more effective than one made out of your underpants.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Case in point: you have cybereyes and cyberears... both are device rating 3. They can only run video and audio specific software respectively.

Actually, the rules never tell us that cyberware only is a peripheral node.
Given the low security (admin-only, no threashold modifier) of periperal nodes, any GM ruling so deserves a good smacking... and subsequently, a team consisting only of Awakened and Technomancers, boosting themselves with Bioware.

Now just because you cluster them... you can run anything your heart desires?... I don't think so.

The rules do see a cluster of peripheral nodes as a replacement for a standard node, though:

If you lack a commlink or other standard node, you can cluster a number of peripheral nodes together so that they act as a single, unified node (see Clustering, p. 55).

[Falconer]

That's just it... 'super-node' has no definition given, it's never explained how this 'supernode' would compare to a standard node once clustered it just points you to the clustering rules which tell you how to determine it's clustered ratings and nothing more.

That final paragraph says nothing about them losing their vulnerabilities/weaknesses when clustered either or gaining additional abilities. There is one hidden sentence in there... "can be clustered w/ other minor nodes"... okay here we have another definition problem... is 'minor node' just another name for peripheral node? My reading would be, okay can't be clustered w/ a major device. Now what the hell is a major device (IMO a commlink, or a nexi)

The biggest advantage to being clustered that I can see is that they can all be defended w/ a single set of programs run collectively. But I can't see anywhere which states that they lose their limitations. There's other benefits as well... as a cluster you'd only need to run one 'encrypt' to run all of them as encrypted devices (rather than one per device), so just allowing them to pool resources is actually a pretty big advantage on it's own as it frees more resources for defense. But what kind of defense?

Maybe I'm just being too legalistic and rules lawyery... but I like to keep things tight and far from the rules bounds ESPECIALLY because the only GM I know for SR locally doesn't understand matrix stuff and he'd come down pretty hard if he thought I was abusing or misplaying things on him. I'm also pretty big on don't abuse things, lest they be abused on you.

And really... everyone needs an armored beer fridge w/ a signal of three so it can actually reach out and touch the nearest beer distributor for delivery (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Do you really want something that important dependant on a commlink to keep your life essentials in stock!

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I mean, it just seems like it'd be wiser to make a "chain" of slaved nodes. Your commlink being the true master, with your next highest rated node slaved to your commlink, the next slaved to that one, and so on and so forth. Wouldn't that definitely make them have to fight through everything? Especially if you bury your most dangerous implants (datajacks, cyberlimbs, smartlinks, cybereyes, etc.) at the end of the chain?

If you slave them, everything is lost as soon as the master falls.

Just chaining them is ok, just less practical.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That's just it... 'super-node' has no definition given, it's never explained how this 'supernode' would compare to a standard node once clustered it just points you to the clustering rules which tell you how to determine it's clustered ratings and nothing more.

First, as soon as it isn't defined as a 'peripheral node', it doesn't suffer it's restrictions.
Second, the rules suggest a cluster as a replacement for a commlink or other standard node.

That final paragraph says nothing about them losing their vulnerabilities/weaknesses when clustered either or gaining additional abilities.

They don't have to. Because they don't impose restrictions on a cluster super-node.
You are assuming inheritance while the rules don't.

[Ol' Scratch]

I was browing Unwired a bit today and came across something odd.

Would it be possible to create a Nexus that's limited to a single persona? And if so, would that prevent it from being hacked as long as you kept your own persona active? If so, it's particular odd because building such a Nexus (which I imagine would be one of the ones that didn't require a desktop-sized device) is dirt cheap and readily available. The only downfall is the Availability for the Response rating, but if you either use the Restricted Gear quality you can start with a single-persona five-processor Nexus with Response 5 (2,500¥), System 5 (250¥), Signal 5 (1,000¥), and Firewall 6 (3,000¥) for only 6,750¥. Compared to a Fairlight Caliban with Novatech Navi OS for 9,500¥ which only has Response 4, Signal 5, Firewall 3, and System 4.

Is there something I'm missing here? And is it possible to cluster Nexi?

[Ryu]

I was browing Unwired a bit today and came across something odd.

Would it be possible to create a Nexus that's limited to a single persona? And if so, would that prevent it from being hacked as long as you kept your own persona active? If so, it's particular odd because building such a Nexus (which I imagine would be one of the ones that didn't require a desktop-sized device) is dirt cheap and readily available. The only downfall is the Availability for the Response rating, but if you either use the Restricted Gear quality you can start with a single-persona five-processor Nexus with Response 5 (2,500�), System 5 (250�), Signal 5 (1,000�), and Firewall 6 (3,000�) for only 6,750�. Compared to a Fairlight Caliban with Novatech Navi OS for 9,500� which only has Response 4, Signal 5, Firewall 3, and System 4.

Is there something I'm missing here? And is it possible to cluster Nexi?

You are missing that the attacker uses the persona provided by the (cyber)comlink.

[Cain]

As far as I can tell, you cannot cluster Nexi. Although I'm not entirely sure on that one.

And the price of commlinks has never been well thought out. I believe the build-a-link rules allows you to make a commlink for much cheaper. (5,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) vs 8,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) So, if the nexus turns out to be cheaper, that's because the Fairlight is overpriced.

[Wasabi]

Commlinks have miniaturization so that could play a part in their higher price.

[KCKitsune]

As far as I can tell, you cannot cluster Nexi. Although I'm not entirely sure on that one.

And the price of commlinks has never been well thought out. I believe the build-a-link rules allows you to make a commlink for much cheaper. (5,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) vs 8,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) So, if the nexus turns out to be cheaper, that's because the Fairlight is overpriced.

Well that's just consumerism. Think about it. VW or BMW here in the US are overpriced* cars. How about Levi jeans... VERY over priced. You pay for a name because having a <insert brand name product> is MUCH more "cool" than a no name rival that is better.

========================================================

* = over priced in some people's minds, and cheap to others.

[Falconer]

Funk: I was looking at something similar there for the nexus... only a single persona makes things really cheap on the system front. Response doesn't limit system for a nexi... but there's a few things like matrix initiative which response is used for so it's not something you completely ignore. Also response still degrades by 1 for every time you go over process limit (when it hits 0 node crashes).

Also are you doing the cost correctly... I read that as response 5... 5*10*100==5000. 5*1*50==250 system5, Firewall6 6*10*50==3000, Signal5==1000. For a total of 9250. Which is pretty close. Because it's nowhere near as small and ubiquitous as the commlink so it will stand out.
Edit: caught my and your initial error... there's a minimum proc limit on a nexus of 10. So 5 is right out, excepting that you then go directly to 10.

There's another strength on the nexus as well.. System importantly is independant of response (though program rating is still limited by response). For a low grade commlink w/ response 2, system 2... the system literally implodes if the subscription limit is full and it runs too much. For every response programs, system degrades by 1 as response goes down... every subscription over 2xSystem counts as a program. So we start w/ 4 subscriptions, commlink runs 2 programs, it's response drops to 1, system drops to 1, 2 more subscriptions turn into programs... response immediately drops to 0... system hang.

On the nexus. System never degrades... so you'll never run into a problem where subscriptions get turned into extra programs further complicating defending the node. And limiting your choices for overloading the remote nexus as well.

In a way, a small portable nexus, is the old school portable cyberdeck of ages gone by in the new environment. Does anyone else get that impression? I don't have SR2 or SR3 books to reference on that one (only my old SR1 book).

One of the items I've been looking at in hacking is trying to figure out is numbers is actually kind of wierdly beneficial to the 'low tech' style mass numbers... Node degrades... program ratings go down and relimited by system. Eventually only buying rating 3 programs on the cheap is in your favour... as you have more of them and there's so many of them that the other guys rating 6 are only running at rating 3. (your stuff runs on your local node I understand... but as a user in the system can't you have the other system load programs into it's capacity? The example in unwired, has the hacker shut down the kitsune agent w/ it's analyse... which would reduce the program count of the node by 2... if he can decrease it... can he increase it as well.

One final bit is that I think I'm starting to get a handle on the agent smith problem... but I read in another thread that there was an errata or promised change in the upcoming errata to stop this from happening. When I hit my search fu I'm getting tons of threads and lots of complaints, but I can't seem to find the dev/author post addressing this. Can anyone explain this a bit better to someone learning the hacking rules?

[Cain]

Well that's just consumerism. Think about it. VW or BMW here in the US are overpriced* cars. How about Levi jeans... VERY over priced. You pay for a name because having a <insert brand name product> is MUCH more "cool" than a no name rival that is better.

Are you suggesting that a 150% increase in cost is because of Brand Names?

One final bit is that I think I'm starting to get a handle on the agent smith problem... but I read in another thread that there was an errata or promised change in the upcoming errata to stop this from happening. When I hit my search fu I'm getting tons of threads and lots of complaints, but I can't seem to find the dev/author post addressing this. Can anyone explain this a bit better to someone learning the hacking rules?

Search by name: Synner. It should come up for you. Here is one reference to it, but it also lays it out pretty clearly: Errata will delete the second paragraph, so you cannot Spoof an agent's Access ID. You can still pull off an Agent Smith in quite a few ways, although now it requires a bit of work to make it happen.

[Ryu]

Nexus vs. Cluster: The nexus will have better stats for the same money, unless you use the abstraction level of the cluster rules a bit. You might want to see the Nexi rules on Unwired pg. 50, too: Persona limit = system*3.

Loading programs into foreign nodes: Yes if you have the required access level. Yes to the possible use for slowdown. But you really want to use the Nuke program that came with Unwired.

Small nexi as cyberdecks: I can see it, and have no problem with it. At least the mainstay vehicle of any rigger should have a nexus. Do a little datasearch for the specs, and build an old-school case.

Programs should by default be aquired with the optimisation option; strongly consider ergonomic for Analyse, Armor, Attack, Stealth, Encryption.


Without the ability to spoof agent IDs, the infinite version of agent smith will be fixed. No need to concern yourself with that, much. There is some difficulty in handling small numbers of autonomous programs with straight command subscriptions. I suggest that you prod any player trying to walk that route towards playing a real hacker with a decent dicepool (You might want to increase the security response to a detected intrusion attempt. Agents are good at triggering those.).

[KCKitsune]

Are you suggesting that a 150% increase in cost is because of Brand Names?

Yes. I am very much saying that a 150% increase in price is because of brand name.

[Cain]

Without the ability to spoof agent IDs, the infinite version of agent smith will be fixed. No need to concern yourself with that, much. There is some difficulty in handling small numbers of autonomous programs with straight command subscriptions. I suggest that you prod any player trying to walk that route towards playing a real hacker with a decent dicepool (You might want to increase the security response to a detected intrusion attempt. Agents are good at triggering those.).

Not quite true. Agent Smith in the hundreds is still easily achievable, it's just a touch more expensive and requires some actual effort. It's no longer as cheap or as easy as it was before, but it is still a viable (and effective!) tactic. Frank Trollman put up the hackastack scenario; a twist on that is to use a cluster to run insane numbers of agents on your persona. It's still cheap and easy, but it's not as accidental as it used to be.

Yes. I am very much saying that a 150% increase in price is because of brand name.

Ok. I was thinking that was a bit crazy, but then I remembered. Plenty of people pay for brand-name computers, when they could just buy parts and assemble it themselves for a lot less. I still think the markup is a bit high, but I figure that brand names, plus the extra labor, might make up a lot of the difference. That still means that off-the-shelf commlinks are a hair too expensive; or more likely, custom commlinks are too cheap.

[KCKitsune]

Ok. I was thinking that was a bit crazy, but then I remembered. Plenty of people pay for brand-name computers, when they could just buy parts and assemble it themselves for a lot less. I still think the markup is a bit high, but I figure that brand names, plus the extra labor, might make up a lot of the difference. That still means that off-the-shelf commlinks are a hair too expensive; or more likely, custom commlinks are too cheap.

Nope, just think about this: a Cyber Fairlight is Availability 0, which to me means that any slot can walk into a cyber clinic and get one installed (as long as you have the cash). A custom 'Link with the exact same stats is Availability 12. This means to me that the poor slot had to go hunting for the components.. just like some geek hitting Newegg, Tiger Direct, and a dozen of other web sites for the cheapest price for that uber part.

[Cain]

Nope, just think about this: a Cyber Fairlight is Availability 0, which to me means that any slot can walk into a cyber clinic and get one installed (as long as you have the cash). A custom 'Link with the exact same stats is Availability 12. This means to me that the poor slot had to go hunting for the components.. just like some geek hitting Newegg, Tiger Direct, and a dozen of other web sites for the cheapest price for that uber part.

I think the lack of availability for commlinks is probably an oversight. That being said, I'm coming to believe that off-the-shelf commlinks aren't overpriced; it's that custom machines are underpriced. If you have a cheap commlink, it's much cheaper to upgrade it to the max than to upgrade the Fairlight, at least in terms of total price.

[Ol' Scratch]

I think the lack of availability for commlinks is probably an oversight. That being said, I'm coming to believe that off-the-shelf commlinks aren't overpriced; it's that custom machines are underpriced.

The problem seems to be that they came up with the prices for the commlinks before they came up with the rules for upgrading/creating one. Then, instead of going back and redoing the prces, they just said "fuck it."

If you have a cheap commlink, it's much cheaper to upgrade it to the max than to upgrade the Fairlight, at least in terms of total price.

I believe when I was goofing around, the Renraku Sensei was the cheapest one to upgrade to a rating of 5/5.

[Cain]

The problem seems to be that they came up with the prices for the commlinks before they came up with the rules for upgrading/creating one. Then, instead of going back and redoing the prces, they just said "fuck it."

I can agree with that. It sounds sensible to me.

I believe when I was goofing around, the Renraku Sensei was the cheapest one to upgrade to a rating of 5/5.

Actually, it's the Meta Link. The cost to upgrade isn't incremental; so it costs the same to raise from rating 1 to 6, as it does to go from rating 5 to 6. So, you may as well buy the cheapest one in the book, and then upgrade all the way. (I'm not sure you have to buy one at all, for that matter. I'm not sure if the motherboard equivalent is just handed out as a freebie.)

[KCKitsune]

I think the lack of availability for commlinks is probably an oversight.

I think that with 5 printings of the Core Rule book that we can figure that the availability of any commlink is zero. Honestly, these things are suppose to be so common that the idea of NOT having one is almost criminal. In fact, in certain places, it IS illegal to not have a commlink transmitting in active mode.

I believe when I was goofing around, the Renraku Sensei was the cheapest one to upgrade to a rating of 5/5.

How do you figure that? You don't pay for the rating increase based on the old stat, you buy the upgrades to the new rating. It doesn't matter if you had a Fairlight or a meta link. Raising the ratings to 5/5 costs you 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . So the cheapest link to max out is the meta link.

[Ol' Scratch]

Ah, I have always played that upgrades = new cost - old cost. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Probably a house rule.

[Cain]

Ah, I have always played that upgrades = new cost - old cost. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Probably a house rule.

Yeah, but that actually makes sense! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

How dare you make sense on these boards! Don't you know we're not allowed to do anything but rules-nitpicking and power gaming? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)