So... Whatever happened to Lars J. Matthews?, Remember, never deal with a dragon. Options

[Sir_Psycho]

He didn't just declare it to be, he was Dunkelzahn, with all of the extensive shadow network and resources at the disposal of his will. Also, look at the wording of it. It doesn't mention the Draco Foundation at all. And this is one of those "if you are reading this..." things. There's zero repercussions because Dunkelzahn was already dead, and this particular section was evidently orchestrated in a manner involving plausible deniability. You do play Shadowrun, right? Where corporations use proffesional criminals to do illegal things for them under the umbrella of plausible deniability? Dunkelzahn shirked the deniability by putting it in his will, but then again he was dead. The Draco Foundation however would have no connection to the crime, because Dunkelzahn would have arranged it with outside operatives.

At the end of the day, maybe some-one could complain. But nothing would happen. The government is unlikely to find Mathews in time, and they're even less likely to find out who did it. And in the end, who cares? The guy was likely a shadowrunner or other underworld or shady figure.

[Ol' Scratch]

Uhm, no. Just no.

I hate to break it to you, but publically announcing "hey, I'm going to have your identity taken from you and give anyone who kills you one million bucks" is pretty much the exact opposite of plausible deniability.

It doesn't matter if he was alive or dead, a dragon or a sewer rat. That changes nothing. The would-be president of the UCAS basically said "I can and will erase any of your identities if you cross me. Your citizenship means jack shit. To hell with the Consitution. To hell with the law. To hell with your peace of mind. To hell with the basic social contract that the entire world operates on. Why do you even have a SIN? It's obviously meaningless. You're all nothing so burn in hell." That's essentially what that single part of the will says.

Compare it to the modern world. You're in line at McDonald's accidently bump into some guy. When you look up, oh shit! It's McCain and you just caused him to spill his drink on himself. McCain's none-too-happy about this and scribbles something down. A week later, he gets assinated and his will is presented to the world. In that will, it stipulates that YOU are to have your identity completely erased, all your accounts frozen, everything taken from you, and anyone who kills you gets a million bucks.

Yeah. If that were to happen nothing at all would come of it. Not a thing. No sir. Not at all.

[hobgoblin]

lets not forget that the erasure would not be permanent, if the victim made it to the draco foundation and could somehow prove to them who he was.

in that sense, its no better or worse then other dystopic themes, like say "running man". survive the zone and you get your freedom and have whatever crime you committed forgotten...

also, how much of this was made public on (inter)national news, and how much was a shadow release only?

as for gross abuses of power, real world third world dictators anyone? welcome to the balkanized states of america...

or in other words, UCAS dropped like a rock, but other places in the world dropped even harder (eurowars anyone?), so its still possibly a high point on the curve, its just that the curve in general have taken a dive compared to real life...

[Fuchs]

That's why I posted the "Lars is actually a wanted criminal, and his ID is actually fake, here's the proof" possible explanation.

I also doubt that anything posted remains in the shadows, not with cybersnoops and hacker searches.

And given the numerous opponents of the Draco Foundation, I doubt anyone would not drag this up to give them a scandal.

[hobgoblin]

but then, how much effect do scandals have in SR?

even the extreme ones thats bug city and the archology lockdown seems to have gone kinda flat...

[Fuchs]

but then, how much effect do scandals have in SR?

even the extreme ones thats bug city and the archology lockdown seems to have gone kinda flat...

Well, I don't really agree with how those were handled. Scandalous and blackmail info would be worthless if such stuff can run under the radar, and doesn't cause lots of heads to roll. And the rest of the material doesn't seem to indicate that public opinion and press coverage is worthless.

IMC, public opinion forced much quicker action in both cases, it wouldn't have been possible to quarantine either the arc or chicago for months.

[CanRay]

Yeah, but dragons are so powerful (even after they're deceased) that their word is essentially law. I mean, look what Ghostwalker did in Denver, he basically strolled in, told everyone that he owned the place, and everyone else agreed. I don't see why Dunkelzahn couldn't have arranged for some shadowrunners to erase any evidence of Lars J. Matthews. I mean, lots of people fall through the cracks, and if the shadowrunners do it right, this guy's information wouldn't be any different.

I describe this as the, "The Dragon shows up, and goes... 'Damnit, I have an infestation in my lawn. HEY! YOU METAHUMANS! GET OFF MY PROPERTY!!!' syndrome.

And, frankly, not many people argue with them. I mean, one religion tried declairing war on all of Awakened kind, and look at the responce to that!

[Kairo]

Uhm, no. Just no.

I hate to break it to you, but publically announcing "hey, I'm going to have your identity taken from you and give anyone who kills you one million bucks" is pretty much the exact opposite of plausible deniability.

It doesn't matter if he was alive or dead, a dragon or a sewer rat. That changes nothing. The would-be president of the UCAS basically said "I can and will erase any of your identities if you cross me. Your citizenship means jack shit. To hell with the Consitution. To hell with the law. To hell with your peace of mind. To hell with the basic social contract that the entire world operates on. Why do you even have a SIN? It's obviously meaningless. You're all nothing so burn in hell." That's essentially what that single part of the will says.

Compare it to the modern world. You're in line at McDonald's accidently bump into some guy. When you look up, oh shit! It's McCain and you just caused him to spill his drink on himself. McCain's none-too-happy about this and scribbles something down. A week later, he gets assinated and his will is presented to the world. In that will, it stipulates that YOU are to have your identity completely erased, all your accounts frozen, everything taken from you, and anyone who kills you gets a million bucks.

Yeah. If that were to happen nothing at all would come of it. Not a thing. No sir. Not at all.

Well, such is life in the world of Shadowrun chummer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Wakshaani]

So, regardless of teh question of legality, could he do it, etc etc etc, the BIG question is this:

Who is/was Lars, what deal did he make with a dragon (Dunk? Someone else?), and why was he marked for such treatment/death? Was he ever mentioned in any product, ever, before the Will? Module, sourcebook, novel, anything at all?

[hobgoblin]

given the work AH did on the will before going "to the dark side", nope, it was never touched on...
http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Dunk_Will.htm

[CanRay]

Who wants to bet Lars has family that wants revenge for what the "Assassins" did to dear ol' Dad/Uncle/Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed-From-Both-Sides.

[Wesley Street]

Considering that dragons can burn down entire metropolises, grab huge swaths of public land and declare them their personal crash pads, as well as wrest power away from elected governments it's safe to say that dragons (including "cuddly" ones like Dunklezhan) view humans how we view dolphins and chimps. Amazingly interesting, intelligent as well as dangerous in a pack... but ultimately beneath them. Their minds are so much older, so much more powerful and more evolved than ours, that a human can't completely fathom motivation or reason for actions taken. "Right" and "wrong" as we view it may not even be in their emotional makeup. Lars may have been a total jackass or a completely innocent person. It doesn't really matter. If a great dragon wants something done, it gets done. Hence you never make a deal with one. Stay off their radar if you can.

If John McCain could shoot fire out of his mouth I might switch my party registration to the Republicans.

[NightmareX]

Like our good friend Leonardo, with the optical decking technology ?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hmmm...

Shame SR v4 seems pretty intent on killing anything like that off (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I consider the modern SR4 commlink (and trodes) to be largely derived from Leo's work, based on their effectiveness.

[Fuchs]

I consider the modern SR4 commlink (and trodes) to be largely derived from Leo's work, based on their effectiveness.

I consider it derived of my current smartphone.

[NightmareX]

Kinda both really IMO. I was speaking from an SR perspective with that though.

[Fuchs]

My SR perspective is that if the SR world needed "Leo" to get our smartphones matched with VR tech then the world would be better off discarded.

[Fortune]

Did anyone notice that the 10-day period in question actually occurs before Dunkleberry's death?

[Link]

Did anyone notice that the 10-day period in question actually occurs before Dunkleberry's death?

No, what was the date of Dunkelzahn's death? A provision like this would be void if the appointed time preceded the testator's demise.

As for UCAS outrage, the SIN could be corporate or another nation. Corporations probably rescind SIN's frequently and without much fuss being made.

[hobgoblin]

Did anyone notice that the 10-day period in question actually occurs before Dunkleberry's death?

indeed, strange really...

http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/2057

could be a numbers typo, but still very much a funny little detail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

btw, anyone have the actual book handy and can check that the date is the same there?

i have a feeling both the wiki and AH used the text on shadowrun4.com as basis...

[NightmareX]

My SR perspective is that if the SR world needed "Leo" to get our smartphones matched with VR tech then the world would be better off discarded.

I'll keep this short due to time and not wanting to derail too much, so please forgive if this sounds too aggressive.

Basically, my logic is in SR1-3 trodes were crap and cyberdecks required DNI linkage to take commands (you could use trodes to view VR/simsense, but that was it). Leo comes around with shiny new "optical decking" (basically using trodes to deck, in terms of input though there was likely more to it I'm forgetting). Leo gets "hired" by Lofwyr. Fast forward to SR4 and we're all using trodes as DNI interface to palm sized decks. Was it all due to Leo's tech? In setting it comes down to either Leo's stuff had some influence on the new Matrix, or it's a massive case of convergent evolution. I think the former is more likely, though I will say it's unlikely the entire UI end of the new Matrix is completely a result of his tech.

[Fortune]

... anyone have the actual book handy and can check that the date is the same there?

i have a feeling both the wiki and AH used the text on shadowrun4.com as basis...

I don't have the book handy, but I am positive that the dates are the same, as I had noticed this oddity before becoming acquainted with Ancient History (or even Dumpshock).

[Sir_Psycho]

I'll keep this short due to time and not wanting to derail too much, so please forgive if this sounds too aggressive.

Basically, my logic is in SR1-3 trodes were crap and cyberdecks required DNI linkage to take commands (you could use trodes to view VR/simsense, but that was it). Leo comes around with shiny new "optical decking" (basically using trodes to deck, in terms of input though there was likely more to it I'm forgetting). Leo gets "hired" by Lofwyr. Fast forward to SR4 and we're all using trodes as DNI interface to palm sized decks. Was it all due to Leo's tech? In setting it comes down to either Leo's stuff had some influence on the new Matrix, or it's a massive case of convergent evolution. I think the former is more likely, though I will say it's unlikely the entire UI end of the new Matrix is completely a result of his tech.

Well, by canon, optical tech was being used in the prior editions. Old datajacks and hardwired systems used fiberoptic cables for data transfer. Fiberoptic cables are basically transparent plastics that bend and allow lasers to move through them to transfer the data.

Leo was an incredible techie, but you've got to understand that he was an artiste with a fanciful idea of a completely optical computer. The guy was a nutjob.

Personally, I think that the reduced size of consumer computer technology (eg. Commlinks) came from market pressures. Commlinks are small because of the mass market. Everyone uses them. Cyberdecks were just really powerful computers. In SR3 and prior editions we had the p-sec, or pocket secretary, which is essentially a low rating commlink, but it just didn't have the pervasive wireless infrastructure that replaed the Matrix after crash 2.0. Market forces always cause tech to miniaturize. Just look at how far cell phones have come: They used to be a phone in a suitcase, and as they became smaller they became smaller and smaller. And now that they're reached the comfortable limits of miniaturization, we're further miniaturizing their components and putting cameras and extra memory and soundcards and wireless hardware.

That said, i'm sure Leo's tech has influenced Shadowrun tech, but Shadowrun is about pervasive capitalism and it's power when harnessed by unethical McCorps who have the legislation behind them to write their own laws and do whatever the hell they want behind closed doors. Even IE's like Leonardo are average sized fish in a very big pond.

For example, I'd say Leo's tech may have had some influence on MASER power/data systems, such as the one that apparently runs the Transys system at Caerleon. It also fits in with the eccentricity and aforementioned artistry of Leonardo, an obscenely complex and volatile system composed of light and raw energy. It's just his style.

[Synner667]

Hmmm...
...Considering that DNI technology is mature by the time Leonardo's tech is revealed, I'd say his technology had nothing to do with anything that's currently used as a basis for the current machines and interfaces.

If I recall, it was something akin to the Otaku [remember those, before SR v4 retconned them away]...
...And was a quantum leap away from the DNI technology being used - remember he hit several MegaCorps, and managed to get to the core systems with no trackback or problems. Even when they were on high alert, with premier grade Deckers online using DNI technology.

Setting up his project and allowing access was the only way anyone would get access to the tech...
...But it appeared it would be a whole new paradigm for network access.


But that's just my interpretation >shrug<


BTW - what happened to Leonardo and his project [I know it's mentioned in at least 1 of the sourcebooks, but I don't have them to hand] ??

[Fuchs]

Leo was a stupid idea, stupidly done, and a good example of the SR version of the old WoD "anyone important, ever, was a vampire or other critter in disguise" way of thinking.
I don't subscribe to that nonsense.

[AngelisStorm]

I really like the Fake Sin explanation.

But that aside, I think the question is "What are you going to do about it?"

Yup, there might be public outcry. But so what? What is the "public" going to do about it? What is a Senator going to do? "I use my legislative powers to make this thing that can't happen, not happen."

The long and the short is that is did happen. Everyone freaks out because it does potentially destroy the whole point having a SIN (crashes aside). So experts are called in, the FBI and anyone else who matters ICE his SIN to the gills... and it happens anyway.

There is always a way to do something like that. This is Shadowrun, encryption (for example) means jack. So the guy wakes up on the date (probably somewhere remote, since who knows what might happen, right?) goes to buy coffee... and his accounts are useless. Despite everything he, the goverment, and countless experts could do. And there is no proof he is himself. He procedes to a police station, and the cops go "Really? Your THAT guy? Sure. What are you doing in Montana?" And then a rent a cop follows him and kills him for the money while on his lunch break. Bad idea, and he probably knows it. Even if the cops put him under their protectection, people are going to find out where he is, and now he can't run because the cops won't let him.

Also can you imagine now many SINless are probably going to the police and the institute trying to prove they are this guy? A chance to take over his life, when you don't have a SIN? Probably going to cause a bit of chaos, what with bounty hunters killing the imposters, so the police have to protect ever crazy person who makes the claim.

Once the "impossible" has happened, what do you do about it? How do you prove who you are, when all the procautions you took were for naught?

And as for legal responce... "Ahh, you killed the target. I was told that if someone could prove this, I should give them this serial number. Have a nice day." Said runner finds out it's a black offshore account, and no one can prove anything.