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 Dealing with a low body, How does one survive? |
 Jan 21 2004, 01:31 AM
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#76
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
Dodge Tests has vision mods? Huh? He takes only wound mods to Dodge. I don't think Thermovision is going to help/hurt for dodging. And taking your 6m example, you can pump 10 rounds (max) into that 6m. So he's got to get 1-2 sucesses with combat pool. BTW, a mage who was coverless at the start of the engagement deserves to die (How the hell did he get to go before your Sam anyway?) And since your damage isn't modified by auto fire, modified by only your sucesses, which can be resisted. |
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Jan 21 2004, 02:10 AM
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#77
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't see why a dodge test wouldn't take vision mods. if you can't see who's shooting at you, how would you know when and where to dodge?
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Jan 21 2004, 02:23 AM
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#78
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
OK, let me put it this way, I don't think it is in the Canon rules to include vision mods in Dodge test. The examples in the books certainly do not.
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Jan 21 2004, 02:31 AM
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#79
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'll look at it when i get off work. regardless, there are still times when suppressive fire works very well--for instance, five guys suppressing the same area. at the very least, suppression eats up combat pool.
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Jan 21 2004, 03:41 AM
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#80
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,362 Joined: 3-October 03 From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA Member No.: 5,676 |
Don't get shot. The best way to do this is to not get shot at, though being protected does help. It's that simple. Here are a few specifics.
Use cover. Wear armor, but not enough to penalize you. Stealth skill and stealth spells. Have a good combat pool. Since combat pool is based primarily on mental attributes, you don't have to be a physical combat character to have a lot of it. Don't dress like a D&D wizard. Don't cast visible spells in full view of the enemy. In short, don't let them know you are the mage if they can easily shoot you. Armor, Increase Body, Barrier, Bullet Barrier, Deflection, any spell that protets you. Illusion spells can make you harder to hit. Don't be in front. If there is a chance of being ambushed from the rear, don't be in back either. Use goggles and stuff to detect enemies. Plan your attack with your team. And as for ultrasound goggles and invisibility, here is a blinding flash of the obvious for you guys. As it says in the book, invisibility affects the mind, improved invisibility affects light itself. Therefore only regular invisibility works againts ultrasound. Since the user perceives ultrasound visually, rather than as sound, it should be susceptible to invisibility. |
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Jan 21 2004, 04:09 AM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
"Don't get shot".
pfft..you guys must play a totally different game or something. How bout some suggestions that are NOT obvious for once. Gotta love: "Wear armor" "hide behind something" "use your combat pool" oh really? Captain Obvious to the rescue! Save us from the little known!! |
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Jan 21 2004, 04:32 AM
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#82
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
@ Solstice: I think they're just trying to cover all the bases. ;) And it really doesn't get much more common denominator than "Try to avoid situations where you can get shot". Pretty sound advice for SR or RL, IMO. :D
Theres a flaw in that plan somewhere....Okay, got it: The device that projects and reads the ultrasound wave isn't affected so you would still see the image on the screen/display. The same way you could see the (non-physical) invisible mage if you had a camera. Thats why you need a spell that frags w/ sound waves. There's another one too, I just can't put my finger on it.... This post has been edited by kevyn668: Jan 21 2004, 04:34 AM |
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Jan 21 2004, 04:42 AM
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#83
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Seems to be a whole thread-full of ideas. :please: |
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Jan 21 2004, 04:42 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
on the ultrasound vision issue:
Add in a spatial recognizer and high frequency hearing, and you have -3 TN to locate something by sound, ie ultrasound. Make a map with that ultrasound, a gps, and an orientation system, and you now have a -4 TN, or no penalty to geek the mage. a rating 8+ white noise generator is needed to render augmented ultrasound worse than thermo. M&M makes no distinction between grades of invisibility- simply states both mana and physical silence spells will prevent ultrasound from 'seeing' the mage, and leave no blnk spot. Sight-effecting spells dont affect ultrasound without a sound component as well. Only downside to the '+1 or no penalty in pitch black' is that you are emitting sound. and annoying the hellhounds. turning it off when not needed would increase ones lifespan. (how do protective covers work with ultrasound vision?) |
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Jan 21 2004, 04:55 AM
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#85
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Well, in his defense, most of us don't get to start our SR career w/ mil-spec hardened armor. So, I guess I could (grudgingly) see how the advice on this page would seem...lackluster, for lack of a better word. :) Sol: pay more attention to the advice on planning and working as a team. If you don't want to be put in a spot where you have to roll those body dice, the best solution is to make your opponent roll his. But only once. ;) |
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Jan 21 2004, 05:29 AM
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#86
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Aye, those are awesome and often overlooked.
I don't know why, but that "annoying the hellhounds" line made me crack up. :) |
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Jan 21 2004, 05:39 AM
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#87
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Eh? Where, exactly, does it say that? SR3, p. 195: "Invisibility affects the minds of viewers. Improved invisibility affects technological sensors as well." AFAIK, "as well" has the same meaning as "in addition to", so Improved invisibility still works to fool the mind into not seeing you, but it also fools technological sensors into not seeing you. If Improved invisibility did indeed bend light waves, then the perceiver wouldn't get to Resist. |
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Jan 21 2004, 05:48 AM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
My team consists of a physad with little man syndrome and a large sword power foci 5, and a rather dense street sam wanna be weapons specialist who only thinks about eating.
Needless to say I have many gaps to fill and I can already tell in this first run that I'm not going to live very long. They have no way to avoid combat even if they wanted to. They just don't have the skills to get things done without capping someone. It's rather frustrating because it makes SR seem like a one dimensional game. Like if your not combat oriented you die. Like AD&D with guns and really, really annoying dice system. So right now we are scaling the skeleton of a hydroelectric dam with crates of BTLs strapped to our backs, trying to get into Tsimshian. That is stupid yes, but not related to the points I'm talking about. I'm just really frustrated cause I can tell there is no way I can live through the run. I haven't been playing long and I can already see a huge problem with the game. You really can't satisfy everyone since your either in combat (joy for the sams) or your infiltrating or decking or astrally projecting (joy for me, boring for all others), and no character can really participate fully in both, nor can we work as a team like would happen in the land of butterflies and flowers. they would bungle the most basic B&E and I would endanger everyone if they had to protect me in combat. Really SR leads to splitting up the group moreso than I'm used to. Really with such a skill descrepency how can you not? Give me some redeeming qualities here. I mean I love the game but I'm not going to play if I have to make a combat character to simply survive. I've never played a cookie cutter meat grinder and I never will. That is the ultimate non-challenge and boring. Maybe it's the way my GM is. Everything seems very very hard and you have like zero chance of doing anything sucessfully unless you have like 5 or 6 dice to roll for it. That leads to polarized characters who specialize in one thing and that widens the discrepency. |
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Jan 21 2004, 05:57 AM
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#89
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
The problem is you made characters that do not work well together in a team and it sounds like you have a GM that caters twards certain tendencies, and noncombat soloutions aren't them.
If the GM decides that combat is what things tend towards then that's the way the game is going to go. There is nothing you can really do about that. It sounds like everyone but you tended towards combat characters, and then yes, you will be left out because you went against the grain of the party. The ability to make that work lies solely in the hands of your GM. It's possible, but it sounds unlikely. |
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Jan 21 2004, 08:04 AM
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#90
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
With Assault Rifles at close range new characters are generally supposed to die. Body 3 is very appropriate for a non-combat oriented character, and even Body 6 may not help all that much more. The fact that you lived is awesome in itself. Congratulations. First, a couple points on the rules. 1) Dodge Pool doesn't exist in 3rd edition. Athletics skill is not used for Dodge. Instead you get to choose how much of your Combat Pool will be used for Dodge (P. 113) or how much to use with your Damage Resistance (Body) roll. If the attacker has many successes, you'll typically decide whether to use dice for Dodge or Resistance based on which has the smaller Target Number. If the attacker has few successes, you may Dodge to try to avoid getting shot completely. 2) If the GM had decided that a Surprise situation (p. 109) existed, you might have been surprised and not been able to use Combat Pool at all. Consider yourself lucky. Now, some points on your gaming group: a) If the GM is out to kill characters, he'll do this type of thing often. He probably won't. If he's out to make one or two people look good and everyone else look bad, he'll do this type of thing often. He probably won't. b) If the characters forgot to research what type of guard patrols there were, or forgot to send something in Astral space to find guard patrols, or forgot to deck into the building cameras to find guard patrols, or forgot to set up a distraction out on the street to distract guard patrols, or caused an alarm to be raised but went in anyway, then you got what you deserved. You getting hurt just helps reinforce your learning process. Good GM. c) It's the job of your front-line combat characters to draw the fire away from the tech weenies and magicians. They are supposed to look like the biggest threat, so the roving guard patrol shoots at them first. If they instead try to get the tech weenies shot, they are doing something wrong. Some combat characters do this on purpose. If they do, and they don't stop, you're in the wrong group. On the other hand, your tech weenie should be so valuable to the group that the combat monsters want to look out for her. d) It's perfectly fine for a tech weenie to take 3 boxes of damage and have the magician heal it all up after the battle, particularly if it helped your combat monster or magician survive long enough to destroy the opposition. e) I often make a beginning character with low body. If she survives her first 3 adventures I'll raise Body to where it's more effective. If she doesn't survive, I haven't lost much when I make a new character. Welcome to Shadowrun. I hope you have great adventures. P.S. Tech weenies should stay at the back of the group. Don't look threatening. Don't carry a big gun. If you have no gun, they'll shoot you last. Use Fall Prone or move behind cover. |
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Jan 21 2004, 01:10 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 12-August 03 From: Sulphur, Louisiana Member No.: 5,418 |
SR is all about balance.. Balancing your skills to the point where you rock at your chosen archetype, but are still passable in other regards.. It's not easy, for sure. When in doubt, do what I do.. This helps just about any character.. Two combat skills. (Pistols, Unarmed, Armed, Sorcerer.. Some means of doing damage) One niche skill (Computer, Car, Conjuring, whatever) One backup skill (Electronics, Biotech, etc..) Two social skills (Etiquette, Negotiation, Intimidation, etc..) Athletics Stealth You need some combination of those skills to be useful to a group in general, and also in a specific field.. Yes, SR is a game based mostly on the concept of 'you stay here and do what you do best.. We'll go here and do this...' I find that a good group is usually 5-6 people.. One mage, for astral scouting, spell defense, and other special abilities.. One decker, for overwatch, and nothing else. One vehicle rigger, on point guard, ready for extraction. If he has drones, this makes him all the more useful. At least one 'tank', possibly 2. Adept is fine. Samurai is better. Troll samurai is best. And some general B&E specialist. The decker needs to find a safe place to jack in and provide overwatch.. The mage needs to do astral scouting as soon as possible, and provide support and spell defense for the rest of the group afterwards. The rigger needs to keep a watch outside, possibly with drones, and be ready to leave at a moments notice. You do NOT want your rigger to go down in the middle of a run, because then you're really screwed. The tank goes with the B&E specialist, to provide offense/defense.. If you've got 2, let the 'weaker' of the two keep watch on the deckers meat.. You can even leave the mage behind with the decker in this case, but I don't recommend it. If you've got 3 tanks, then the 3rd tank should definitely stay behind and guard the meat bodies.. The B&E specialist sneaks around, (hopefully the troll samurai doesn't give away their position), slicing pass maglocks, taking out lone security members.. Well, you get the idea. SR requires a good GM, or it can suck. Nothing is more fun than a well ran SR game. Nothing is worse than a shitty SR game. The beauty of SR is that, no matter how prepared your group is, you're probably never prepared enough.. You'll always meet that one challenge that can mean life or death.. That's what makes the game fun. Fear. Fear for your PCs life. And you SHOULD be afraid.. You're a criminal, breaking into massive enemy compounds, sneaking around, doing all kinds of illegal goodness.. You damn well better be afraid for your life. Oh, and a Face, while not vital to the run itself, is REALLY great to have at the meet.. But some other player can double up at this role if possible.. Hey, the only thing better than getting 200,000 nuyen for a run is getting 250,000... This post has been edited by LoseAsDirected: Jan 21 2004, 01:18 PM |
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Jan 21 2004, 07:00 PM
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#92
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Actually, a lot of people aim at hostiles without guns based on the assumption they might be mages. :grinbig: -Siege |
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Jan 21 2004, 07:10 PM
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#93
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
I run NPCs as people who react to what they perceive as the biggest threat. Rarely will they start shooting unarmed or lightly armed people while a Troll with a gun is 15 feet away, unless they get an indication that spells are being cast and a magician has suddenly become their biggest threat. Usually by then the tech weenie has started to look for a place to hide.
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Jan 21 2004, 07:55 PM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Ok fragger scan this:
I AM A "TECHIE". Ok? I am a technical specialist. Ok? I am not a "tech weenie". Ok? You want some weenie muchacho I give you some weenie.................main. |
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Jan 21 2004, 09:20 PM
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#95
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Tell that to the Troll ;)
~J |
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Jan 21 2004, 09:21 PM
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#96
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
:rotfl: Thats priceless! All you need is a Keanu voice and the words "..."F-B-I Agent...!" edit: emphasis mine |
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