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> Who needs legwork anymore?, When you got a technomancer
BullZeye
post Sep 17 2008, 06:57 AM
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A most efficient way came to my mind after reading about the new sprites... A technomancer with Tutor sprites has access to all matrix information instantly so instead of running and asking around, one can just call a tutor sprite with the "perfect" knowledge skill for the task. If you want to break into a facility, just toss a force 6 sprite and take knowledge skills of "That particular biulding", "Security of that particular building" and perhaps even "Personnel working in that building". Simple, efficient, beautiful, eh? Not to mention cheap (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Or not? Am I missing something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
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Synner667
post Sep 17 2008, 07:25 AM
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And then do a "proper" Netrun to get difficult-to-acquire info ??

Of course, acquiring the specific knowledge for a sprite could be a run in itself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Legwork lets you concentrate on the non-public info (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Having avatars to do all the grunt work for publicly available info seems good to me...
...But some people just love rolling handfuls of dice and will be most upset if they have to stop.
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TheOOB
post Sep 17 2008, 07:38 AM
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Keep in mind having a knowledge skill doesn't mean you know absolutely everything about the subject, it allows you to make a knowledge check to see if you know something, and well kept secrets are going to have an exceptionally high threshold(if your GM deams they can be found out with a skill at all.).

So yes, compiling a tutor sprite with the "ares astral security" skill would be useful in learning how ares defends it's astral space, but it's unlikely you'll find out exact ally who and what is guarding each facility and where they are posted. Tracking down and bribing their wage-mage on the other hand...

Also remember that sprites, like spirits, dislike being used for frivolous tasks. Asking a tutor sprite for an important piece of information is one thing, but relying on them entirely for every little thing is likely going to get them more then a little annoyed with you. Last thing you'd want is for a annoyed spirit to turn off your cyberlimb right at the worst possible moment.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 17 2008, 08:19 AM
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I'm also sure a professional Face (especially an Adept one) could run circles around any sprite when it comes to legwork. What's more, not everything's on the Matrix, despite what you may have been lead to believe. If it were, there'd be no point in doing runs to get those prototype blueprints or find out what blackmail the mob has on that one congressman.
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Shiloh
post Sep 17 2008, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 17 2008, 09:19 AM) *
What's more, not everything's on the Matrix, despite what you may have been lead to believe.


And a large amount of what is on the Matrix is beyond the knowledge of a sprite. If "compiling" one lets you hack without hacking, your reading the rules wrong.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 17 2008, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 17 2008, 10:19 AM) *
What's more, not everything's on the Matrix, despite what you may have been lead to believe. If it were, there'd be no point in doing runs to get those prototype blueprints or find out what blackmail the mob has on that one congressman.

You know, once the Technomancer is submersed and has access to Info Sortilege and the Resonance Realms... pretty much everything is.
See RC.
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Fuchs
post Sep 17 2008, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 17 2008, 11:45 AM) *
You know, once the Technomancer is submersed and has access to Info Sortilege and the Resonance Realms... pretty much everything is.
See RC.


Good thing I have TMs banned in my campaign.
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Mx
post Sep 17 2008, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 17 2008, 12:45 PM) *
You know, once the Technomancer is submersed and has access to Info Sortilege and the Resonance Realms... pretty much everything is.
See RC.

page number? please.
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toturi
post Sep 17 2008, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 17 2008, 07:00 PM) *
page number? please.

Probably refering to p179 RC, which has its RAW roots in p146 and p174 Unwired.
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sunnyside
post Sep 17 2008, 11:23 AM
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Knowledge skills beyond the standard ones are always up to GM approval. So by cannon you can deny this particular bit of stupidity.

Though of course for generic knowledge they're a quick source of info. But that isn't broken.

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Fuchs
post Sep 17 2008, 11:25 AM
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Unwired, p. 146 details Info Sortilege.
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Mx
post Sep 17 2008, 12:21 PM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 17 2008, 02:22 PM) *
Probably refering to p179 RC, which has its RAW roots in p146 and p174 Unwired.

Oi don't see anything in those pages that says that a technomancer can find out info that isn't and has never been in the matrix.
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Stahlseele
post Sep 17 2008, 12:24 PM
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hmm . . could one ask such a sprite where this and thast person is at any given time?
due to biometrics and his comlink most likely being on 99% of the time he should be easy to trace for such a sprite or not?
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BullZeye
post Sep 17 2008, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 17 2008, 03:24 PM) *
hmm . . could one ask such a sprite where this and thast person is at any given time?
due to biometrics and his comlink most likely being on 99% of the time he should be easy to trace for such a sprite or not?


Don't got the book here with me but I think Sleuth sprite has that power already? Traceroute or alike... someone with the book could verify this.
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toturi
post Sep 17 2008, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 17 2008, 08:21 PM) *
Oi don't see anything in those pages that says that a technomancer can find out info that isn't and has never been in the matrix.

QUOTE
The GM determines... based on it real world availability. This search will not necessarily leave the technomancer with the data in hand, but it will tell the technomancer where to seek it.
No, it doesn't. But it doesn't mean that the Matrix doesn't know how to find that information, provided that it exists in the real(non-Matrix) SR world.
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Magus
post Sep 17 2008, 02:30 PM
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What that would mean that if anyone referenced an offline storage unit that is stored on physical media the resonance would know where it was located. Even if it could not access it directly. But this kind of knowledge would require a sprite/mancer to go on a resonance quest would it not? Not something you really want to do if your are pressed for time.
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Wesley Street
post Sep 17 2008, 02:33 PM
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Not every bit of information a runner could need is available on the Matrix and it's a weak GM who limits Legwork to web surfing. Knowledgeable contacts, sifting through antiquated books, and good old-fashioned snitch shakedowns are equally important methods.
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Skip
post Sep 17 2008, 02:52 PM
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Legwork is also good for the other team members. It gives them an idea of the general layout of the place, a feel for the general security level, and lets them plan thier personal escape routes for when it all goes to hell. Plus it is usually fun to see people role-play the legwork. YMMV.
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Tarantula
post Sep 17 2008, 03:39 PM
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I'm amazed no one has mentioned the Sift echo.

Reduces data search threshold by submersion grade.

So, just take this as an echo, and submerge as much as you can (way better than raising resonance anyway). GM goes data search for super ultra secret info, threshold 8. TM smiles and goes ok. 8-grade = stupidly easy. Eleventyone net hits! GM: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)
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Mx
post Sep 17 2008, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 17 2008, 06:39 PM) *
I'm amazed no one has mentioned the Sift echo.

Reduces data search threshold by submersion grade.

So, just take this as an echo, and submerge as much as you can (way better than raising resonance anyway). GM goes data search for super ultra secret info, threshold 8. TM smiles and goes ok. 8-grade = stupidly easy. Eleventyone net hits! GM: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

To bad that dataseach still didn't net the mancer anythink else then few cryptic clues, becouse there just isn't more info availebul in the matrix. Time for the old fashioned legwork (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Tarantula
post Sep 17 2008, 03:58 PM
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Sure, but any matrix clues that techno will have, in a very short amount of time.

Not to mention combining sift and info sorteliege is just kinda mean.
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BullZeye
post Sep 17 2008, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 17 2008, 06:47 PM) *
To bad that dataseach still didn't net the mancer anythink else then few cryptic clues, becouse there just isn't more info availebul in the matrix. Time for the old fashioned legwork (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


The thing is, Knowledge skill is not the same as matrix search now is it? I would not allow technomancer to have a knowledge skill of "passwords to all Ares conputers" but on more general knowledge, it's ok. If it's somewhere in the matrix, a knowledgeable sprite can know it even if data search can't pick it up. The line of how finely selected the knowledge skill is, is entirely up to the GM. Not all info is in the matrix so one might have to go do some legwork anyway, but it's a great way to decrease the amount of people to talk to when you know (thanks to the sprite) who to talk to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Combined with high charisma and social skills, a technomancer can do whole legwork alone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Rasumichin
post Sep 17 2008, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (BullZeye @ Sep 17 2008, 01:49 PM) *
Don't got the book here with me but I think Sleuth sprite has that power already? Traceroute or alike... someone with the book could verify this.


Yeah, Sleuth sprites make excellent trackers.
Combined with Code sprites, which come with Info Sortilege included, these make powerful research tools indeed.
Able to find practically anybody who is on the matrix.

As far as the tutor sprites are concerned, they get a skillsoft as a CF, not a knowledge skill.
This is not equal to "any knowledge skill imaginable", but equal to anything that exists as a skillsoft somewhere.
Still pretty useful, but the idea that someone produces "Ares Research Facility in Snohomish Security Procedures for Dummies" as a skillsoft is...a little bit off.

Regarding the Resonance Realms' Grand Archive, it is said to contain every piece of information that ever existed on an electronic storage medium, but i personally regard that as an urban legend- closer reading actually shows that the text presents it as a legend or rumor, not as fact.
It contains every piece of information on the matrix since the crash that has not been deleted by a TM, the rest is up to GM discretion.

And "on the matrix" is not equal to "on a hidden workstation behind several walls of WiFi-blocking paint".
To allow this in your games is just insane.
I mean, a lot of TM stuff in Unwired can be pretty insane, if you take every rumor of TM übercheesenes as gospel.
Which is why certain parts of the TM chapter are either not thought through completely or poorly worded or both.

As i want to allow TMs in my campaign, i have to find a way to employ all this in a halfway sane manner, which is not easy, but possible.


Besides, you don't just wander into the great archive, walk to the secret prototype data shelf and pull out the files you need.
There's a reason why certain parts of the Resonance Realms are known as instances, as in "WoW instances".

The really important stuff should be hidden, as in "hidden behind layers of hyperpowerful free tank sprites".
Sadly, the fiction at the end of RC suggests something else- if that is how it is actually intended to work, all shadowruns have just become completely pointles.


Canon recently does a terrible, terrible job in portraying TMs as anything not gamebreaking and omnipotent, but one can come up with something useable for actual gameplay based upon the stuff in Unwired.
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BullZeye
post Sep 17 2008, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Sep 17 2008, 07:14 PM) *
As far as the tutor sprites are concerned, they get a skillsoft as a CF, not a knowledge skill.
This is not equal to "any knowledge skill imaginable", but equal to anything that exists as a skillsoft somewhere.
Still pretty useful, but the idea that someone produces "Ares Research Facility in Snohomish Security Procedures for Dummies" as a skillsoft is...a little bit off.


Yep yep yep. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Tho that skillsoft you mention could be on the "training material" for security guards of Ares (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Magus
post Sep 17 2008, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (BullZeye @ Sep 17 2008, 12:19 PM) *
Yep yep yep. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Tho that skillsoft you mention could be on the "training material" for security guards of Ares (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)


That would still be a data or knowsoft and not a skill soft. A skillsoft would be an active skill, not an instutional instructive teaching aid. But instead a physical act.
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