Spell Targeting Clarification, Senses, Gear and implants to use...What works??? Options

[The Jopp]

Ok, what exactly CAN we target with spells - what SENSES can we use and what modification to them applies? The below list is my interpretation of the rules and might be completely wrong or a misinterpretation of the rules.

In SR4 there seems to have been a step away from the Optical/Digital sight for mages but what exactly applies as there are now external senses (goggles) with added digital visual aids.

Basic RAW Senses
Touch
Visual
Astral Sight

Cybernetic
Eyeware + Visual Mods, (Low Light, Thermo etc)

Bioware
Trolls Eyes
Cats Eyes

Gear
Lenses*
Glasses*
Goggles*
Smartgun Link in Glasses, Goggles or Lenses**

*These are external gear and have no essence cost - the addons for low light and thermo or even magnification are not a natural sense and is an image display that overlays your natural vision and obstructs your targeting.

**The Smartgun link requires an image link to display AR data which basically makes it a transparent computer screen and makes it an electrinic image also obstructing the view.

Indirect Combat Spells (Follows shooting/ranged combat rules)
All of the above
Echolocation
Radar Sensor
Thermosense Organs

Indirect Combat Spells basically uses a list of its own as it is a form of ranged combat.

They could theoretically use a basic perception test to detect an enemy and blind fire at them.

Have I missed something?

[WeaverMount]

>They could theoretically use a basic perception test to detect an enemy and blind fire at them.

The way I see it, an indirect spell may be targeted at a point in space. You must be able to see that point with actual photons collected by a part of your body. However you are free to choose such a point based on any information you like. So if your radar vision shows you the invisible foe you can't see you can choose a point on the wall co-linear with yourself and the foe's chest. I ruled that for indirect spells you can use "indirect fire" rules ... with your self. Your radar (as an example) can feed you data, and your spell casting roll takes the -4 for information targeting. This is also all contingent on there being a legal target. If can't can't see across the street because of vision mods you can't zap a guy in the middle of the street because you can't see a legal target.

[The Jopp]

If can't can't see across the street because of vision mods you can't zap a guy in the middle of the street because you can't see a legal target.

Sorry for bringing up an old RPG classic quote then...

"I attack the darkness"

I can attack a point in space, I really dont have to attack an object or physical location.

[WeaverMount]

Sorry for bringing up an old RPG classic quote then...

"I attack the darkness"

It is a classic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I can attack a point in space, I really dont have to attack an object or physical location.

I would maintain that you do. A spell must have a target you can see. RAW is pretty clear about that. Is if visibility is 20 feet you can only target points 20 feet out. If radar picks some one up 30 feet away you can no more shoot the point behind there head you see with radar then you can shoot them with radar

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Well, you could...with an indirect AOE combat spell with a radius of at least 10 feet*, cast at the limit of your vision.

Because that's really not any different than catching someone around a corner.

*shouldn't we be using meters?

[Tarantula]

Borrow Sense/Animal Sense/Eyes of the Pack can also grant LOS for spellcasting.

[WeaverMount]

Borrow Sense/Animal Sense/Eyes of the Pack can also grant LOS for spellcasting.

I don't think so because

The target of Borrow Sense remains in control of his
own actions and senses—the subject is merely along for the
ride. The subject cannot make the target focus on anything,
and none of the subject’s augmented senses (including astral
sight) will work through the target’s senses. The subject cannot
target spells through the target’s senses. As long as the
caster sustains the spell, the subject can switch from one of
the target’s senses to another with a Simple Action. Senses
that the subject does not normally have can be borrowed
(like bat sonar, for example). Note that a target’s astral sight
is considered a separate sense for purposes of this spell (ie,
the subject can borrow sight or astral sight, but not both at
the same time).

I have comb the RAW for a way to target via detection. You're normal so spot on with your RAW I nearly crapped myself with glee at the though of putting gerbils in little wi Clockwork Orange chairs and taping them to fly spies, and shooting stun balls out there eyes.
-----

Borrow Sense enables the subject to “borrow� a single
sense from a chosen target within range of the spell.

So more Ritual magic is useless for detection spells because all ritual magic does is relax targeting rules. The target of detection spells is by default the guy getting the sense. I think this spell could actually get you intel from a location you don't already have an ally.

[Tarantula]

Argh, I had read through the borrow sense description at least 5 times in the past day trying to find that stupid sentence, and missed it every time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

Sorry for bringing up an old RPG classic quote then...

"I attack the darkness"

I can attack a point in space, I really dont have to attack an object or physical location.

My Popular response, you succeed in hitting the darkness, but by then nothing is there.

Similar to the attacking a point of ground in a Modern Armor Miniatures competition, you can attack a point on the ground with out any of the movement etc modifiers but shame when your projectiles get there, the enemy unit ihas moved on.

WMS

[Tarantula]

I can attack a point in space, I really dont have to attack an object or physical location.

They are the same thing. Either way, you have to be able to see it to cast on it.

[WeaverMount]

Argh, I had read through the borrow sense description at least 5 times in the past day trying to find that stupid sentence, and missed it every time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

lol, but though the magic of the inter-tubes you cast the spell on me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) For me the real sucker punch was "the subject perceives the target’s sense as if it were his own". Without something else would qualify it for spell casting, because you have the RAW condition, and the logic condition of actual light hitting something connected to your aura

[Platinum Dragon]

They are the same thing. Either way, you have to be able to see it to cast on it.

Pretty much. Total darkness screws a mage over.

[Tarantula]

Not really, good perception pools (spec visual of course) are a mages best friend.