"New" Magical Tradition: City Magic, For the urban primitives out there. Options

[Falconer]

I for one hope they turn you down then Jake.

I've seen little to tell me this isn't just a tradition custom made for every Twink, Munch, and Kin to salivate over.

You picked by and large the best of the spirits. Your description leaves it as pretty much anything goes, this isn't really a tradition (more a collection of related traditions all lumped together). Then just to put the cream on top, of course it's a possession tradition. You don't seem to have made much in the way of any conscious attempt to balance any of the elements.

Then even worse... you're so vague in your 'tradition' that it ends up being no tradition whatsoever. It's not like the chaos mage in street magic which could be viewed as a sub-class of the hermetic mage in the core book. And the chaos mages big thing is the whole 'grand unified school of magic' thing. The trappings aren't because they follow the traditions but because they're actively studying them and borrowing their elements. They don't borrow gods and dogma, the tradition specifically in the first paragraph looks to strip those elements out of it leaving just the magic. So to a large degree, I find your comparison quite lacking for those reasons.

I have zero issues w/ this as a home brew because it's just between you and your GM. Or between you and your players then. But, I'd definately dislike this pushed on the rest of us in any book. I also strongly disagree that magic lacks inspiration. Maybe for you, but there's a lot of people who will disagree quite strongly and don't need to have the best of everything handed to them to convince them otherwise.

[Coldhand Jake]

Well, to be fair, a few points in my defense.

A) There is a far cry between a magical tradition practiced, and a magical description balanced for a game. Your arguments about chaos magic take into account the word for word of the description in the book, and ignore the reality of a tradition that has literally used the Ninja Turtles in place of the Watchtowers in invocations. Of course, I'm referring to Discordians here, but the argument is simply there. Chaos magic isn't just a subset of hermeticism in real life, it's about shedding the attachment to defunct rituals, and rebuilding them for yourself. Be that through simple willwork, or invoking your own choice of god-concepts, or making your own new rituals, breaking the old "rules". It's a beautiful thing, far beyond the rubber stamp that it's given as in the Street Magic book. I recommend doing a little research and learning about it.

B) As I said, I'm not really writing this to balance, or to the concern of powergamers or those who cry about them. I've posted this as a workspace to fine-tune an idea for playing an Awakened based on what I live. This isn't about whipping up incredible spirits to do massive things...this is for the people who play street shamans who talk to cars and buildings and rats and cockroaches. It's a possession tradition because it makes more sense to me for the spirit of the city library to possess the building or something inside it, rather than manifest as a pile of books or a librarian. But, it works either way.

C) Frankly, and this may surprise you, or not, but I didn't even bother -reading- the modified Force Attributes for these spirits. I read their powers, and their descriptions, and their sample manifestations, and the religions that have them...and picked them because they made sense. I could care less if the Guardian spirit has massive damage potential. I care that it's a fine representative of a spirit representing a police station, a military base or gang territory. More so than a fire spirit. For all I care, the stat block for Spirit of Earth works just as well for mechanics, and could be transplanted if a GM has trouble with the powergaming aspects of players missing the point of picking a magical tradition because it's flavor makes it interesting. So, the "best of everything" argument would certainly fall on more attentive ears if I wasn't the type to either ignore or cripple disruptive powergamers. Take the same approach to this as you would to the 43rd Voudoun practitioner (and I saw ALOT of these at Dragon*Con) who wouldn't know Legba from a leg of fried chicken.

D)I don't write to power. Period. I have many counterparts who would happily crank out giant gun, after missile launcher, after mech. I write to add something I love to the game. My religion, as I practice it. I live this. My truck, Nightmare, named for it being a firebreathing asshole that's white on the outside, and black on the inside, where I sleep, on a twin-sized mattress, crammed in between my computer and my books, and my leftover sodas, and my pet rat. I have walked the streets of my city at night and know their attitudes, I have sat and talked with graveyards and public parks. I call Thoth, Rat, Cockroach, Jesus and Hades all when I pray, as well as the quiet rumble of Montgomery and Birmingham.

E) "You don't seem to have made much in the way of any conscious attempt to balance any of the elements." No, I haven't. Because, this was written for a chance to play my faith, without shoehorning it into Chaos Magic, or Shamanism, or Wicca, or various pantheons. Once I have finished the flavor, getting it just right, I will make an attempt to balance it. I took what made -sense-, and used it.

Now, if you have a further point, I'll be glad to listen. Especially if you practice as a chaote, Discordian, eclectic pagan, or urban primitive, I'll happily take your advice for making this more attentive to the ways of other urban primitives and street shamans.

[Ol' Scratch]

My problem with it is that you're not really describing a magic tradition -- you're describing a specific religion/character view/background story. There's a huge difference between the two. And, as others have said, you've basically just crammed everything together and using said religion/view to justify doing so. Even similar traditions that borrow trappings from other religions and beliefs, including Chaos Magic and Black Magic, are significantly more focused and specific than what you've presented.

In other words, I strongly believe that you're confusing a religion with a magical tradition. They're not one in the same. And if you're going to say things like "I actually am trying to build a portfolio to write for Catalyst," well... you shouldn't be surprised when it evokes responses like Falconer's or my own. Even if not your intent the final product is basically what Falconer said: It's just a Munchkin Tradition.

[CanRay]

I don't know, the Munchkiny bits make it perfect for a Toxic.

Maybe I should write more for them... Gutter, The Pusher, who else?

Ganger? Whitey? Slacker? Welfare?

[Coldhand Jake]

My problem with it is that you're not really describing a magic tradition -- you're describing a specific religion/character view/background story. There's a huge difference between the two. And, as others have said, you've basically just crammed everything together and using said religion/view to justify doing so. Even similar traditions that borrow trappings from other religions and beliefs, including Chaos Magic and Black Magic, are significantly more focused and specific than what you've presented.

In other words, I strongly believe that you're confusing a religion with a magical tradition. They're not one in the same. And if you're going to say things like "I actually am trying to build a portfolio to write for Catalyst," well... you shouldn't be surprised when it evokes responses like Falconer's or my own. Even if not your intent the final product is basically what Falconer said: It's just a Munchkin Tradition.

Here's my question. Is the problem inherently in the tradition, or in the overpowered stats official canon writers applied to the spirits that hold to these concepts? I should think that were the spirits better balanced with the others, we wouldn't be having an argument on the balance of the tradition.

[Coldhand Jake]

I don't know, the Munchkiny bits make it perfect for a Toxic.

Maybe I should write more for them... Gutter, The Pusher, who else?

Ganger? Whitey? Slacker? Welfare?

I just got into the Urban Fey series at www.urbanfey.net. Gave me more than a few ideas...

How about Traffic? Trash?

[Ol' Scratch]

Here's my question. Is the problem inherently in the tradition, or in the overpowered stats official canon writers applied to the spirits that hold to these concepts? I should think that were the spirits better balanced with the others, we wouldn't be having an argument on the balance of the tradition.

Both, really. I personally don't have a problem with any of the individual spirits and, when creating my own traditions, I tend to use some of them over the silly elemental ones (I really hate how this weird elemental magic has creeped into almost every RPG out there) more often than not. My main problem is with the tradition itself. You just need to narrow it's scope and focus it. Take a look at some of the related traditions I mentioned like Black Magic, Chaos Magic, Hedge Witchcraft. They all borrow heavily from other traditions and faiths, yet they're not as all-encompassing as what you wrote in your original post. That should be general target in my opinion.

[masterofm]

I just made the trash mentor spirit! Didn't anyone see it? The fact is if you are trying a portfolio then you must respect game balance as well. If you want to make something you have to not only write it up as interesting, but you have to take into account the rule. Always look at the rules. Always.

I then also see that this tradition again as not a shaman tradition, but as an intuition based tradition. You walk the streets, you know the streets, you are the streets. You pray to whatever you feel will help you at the moment, and you have no real true order or one true path. You don't razzle dazzle spirits, and you don't use your massive brain. You use what you feel is best at the moment. Intuition.

[NightmareX]

Now, if you have a further point, I'll be glad to listen. Especially if you practice as a chaote, Discordian, eclectic pagan, or urban primitive, I'll happily take your advice for making this more attentive to the ways of other urban primitives and street shamans.

Practicing Chaote here, done time in the eclectic pagan camp (as well as others) too. That said, I'm also approaching this from the perspective that street shamanism isn't all that different from core shamanism in SR. Just to let you know where I'm coming from.

First of all, I would have went with a manifesting tradition instead of a possession trad, based largely on SR canon, but also based on the idea of awakening an item/place's spirit (as a spirit of place it's only logical that said entity could act without being constrained by a particular physical vessel). Plus, most Neo-pagan, Wiccan, Chaote, and shamanic types IRL seem to favor evoking spirits over outright possession (this could be the limits of personal experience and bias talking however YMMV).

Secondly, in terms of Drain stat I'd stick to just one unless there's a very very good reason for the split (ala what they did with Wicca in SR). I would recommend Charisma, both due to canon and the fact that as a type of shamanic endeavor (at heart) a member of this trad is mainly schmoozing spirits to get magic done rather than actually doing magic himself.

Spirit wise, I'd replace Guardian with Earth and Plant with Water, for reasons others have already stated mainly.

As a side note, I agree with Dr Funkenstein - you are confusing religion and magical trad to some extent, but that's somewhat understandable.

[CanRay]

Road Rage would be a good Toxic Mentor.

Wheelman would make a good Adept Mentor...

[Coldhand Jake]

Alright, going to start driving some nails into the flapping ends of this. Possession is out. Based as this is, in the Sixth World, I'd say the possession elements have become somewhat redundant in a world where you can make an elemental flip a car. That being considered, I don't think the average urban primitive will have trouble with the concept of a manifested spirit anymore...so I added in a new simple power to give what I wanted out of Possession anyway. Avatar. This way, the imagery of talking to a car or building's spirit audibly and "face to face" still works.

Furthermore, from it's shamanic echoes, it's Charisma only. Intuition is a great stat to have...but it's not a drain stat option.

It's really hard for me to swap out the spirit choices, as they make so much -sense-...but if you need to balance it, without changing and balancing the spirits, I'd say the changes NightmareX suggests would do it without wrecking the correspondences too much. I'd personally swap out the stat lines and keep moving, but that's alot of work to overcome with certain groups or GMs.

[Ol' Scratch]

The spirits are fine in and of themselves. I question Plants but only because I still see it as being antithesis to an urban-based religion. Plants are more primal and the domain of the wild, whereas a city is the taming of said domain. But that's just a personal bias.

[CanRay]

The spirits are fine in and of themselves. I question Plants but only because I still see it as being antithesis to an urban-based religion. Plants are more primal and the domain of the wild, whereas a city is the taming of said domain. But that's just a personal bias.

Summon a Plant Spirit at a Grow-Ops!

"That was the second-most nasty batch of Marijuana we've had to try and destroy!" "Second?" "Trust me, Son, you see everything in this job."

[NightmareX]

That being considered, I don't think the average urban primitive will have trouble with the concept of a manifested spirit anymore...so I added in a new simple power to give what I wanted out of Possession anyway. Avatar. This way, the imagery of talking to a car or building's spirit audibly and "face to face" still works.

That's a nice touch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Kudos.

[Coldhand Jake]

Coming back to work on this again after a long hiatus...

[Tanegar]

I have to say I really like the Avatar power. It's clever, flavorful, and evokes a common myth-concept. I took a stab at an "urban shaman" concept myself once; what do you think of associating Manipulation magic with Fire spirits? I recall reading somewhere (can't find the reference just now) that Fire spirits can take an electrical form, and electricity is the "animating force" of any city.

[Ascalaphus]

Huh. This is interesting stuff.

I have to say though, it doesn't really strike me as so very much different from shamanism, but the difference is that "ordinary" shamanism focuses on spirits of the natural world, instead of the spirits of metahuman society.

It's also an interesting point: maybe if the new spirits were brought down in power a little, you could have a non-elemental set of spirits without going all overpowered like. Because for some magical styles, having very human-like spirits would feel better.