[X] My Assistant

[AllTheNothing]

Why not XML (or XHTML)?

The XML/XHTML files themselves are text files and they can include formatting. You should be able to separate the formatting from the crunch enough to read fairly well in a text editor. The downside is many automated XML "authoring" programs (MS) will add extra junk. I don't know if a macro could do it without said junk.

Never used XML/XHTML formats so I can't speak about them but using .txt files is quite easy with Java, for both input output, all you need to do is chose a non-ambigue format convention and code the file's writer/reader according to said convenction (and maybe make their source code pubblicly aviable so the standard can be mantained with minumum effort.

To Damien:
A was wandering if it is possible use the E1 cell (Main_Sheet) to implement the "Not Always Quite Human" option for shapeshifters.
By the way I'm tryng to create a surged character but I can't find SurgeX/ClassXSurge/Changeling/WhateverApropriate quality; am I blind or I just have to wait for relises to come?

ATN

[Dumori]

XML is a good bet would have to be hand made with notepad or such to dejunk. But it should work well hell I know of games that uses such a system but others that uses the header system. XML is harded to set up but should be easier to manipulate though in not sure how readable they are to different languages. where and a planer version would be easier to import in to anything.

[DamienKnight]

A was wandering if it is possible use the E1 cell (Main_Sheet) to implement the "Not Always Quite Human" option for shapeshifters.

I am not sure what you are going for here. Cell E1 is for Infection, and since Dracoforms are immune to infection and can also have other races, it is a convinient place for them also. Shifters are a race, so I have placed them in races.

If you are referring to the way that Dracoforms display their modified form stats, then it does not really apply since the attributes affect both human and animal forms, with exception to movement rates (not on this sheet) and claws (which are listed in qualities, and basically just make you do physical instead of stun).

I guess I am asking, how would you like me to change the sheet and how do you think the changes will make the sheet better serve shifters while still serving all other character types?

By the way I'm tryng to create a surged character but I can't find SurgeX/ClassXSurge/Changeling/WhateverApropriate quality; am I blind or I just have to wait for relises to come?

You are not blind. Surge characteristics are on the data sheets, but have no place in the spreadsheet yet. Mostly I have not decided where to put them. Any suggestions?

Why not XML (or XHTML)?

I am open to using xml. Could you provide reasons why XML would work better than plain text with config style formatting for this specific process? XML is very versatile, but our needs are so simple, I think I would like to keep it as simple as possible. Give me reasons and I will weigh it.

Oh, and I am sorry to answer three different questions with questions... I promise I am not attempting to seem messianic!

[Bobson]

You are not blind. Surge characteristics are on the data sheets, but have no place in the spreadsheet yet. Mostly I have not decided where to put them. Any suggestions?

I'd suggest a separate tab. Selecting the Class I, II, or III Surge qualities would enable it (or you could add a dropdown similar to the magical ability drop down to select it, rather than grouping it with the other positive qualities). Alternatively, if you do end up moving skills off of the front page as someone suggested, you could make it be a region on the main page matching the regular quality boxes (which can get moved to the left).

[DamienKnight]

I don't know if they are somewhere else, but under armor mods I did not see Shock Frills

Yeah, seems I left those out. Must have subconsciously left them out on purpose because I think they are realllllly dumb. Feel free to unhide and update the gear_data sheet to add these in.

[DamienKnight]

Any indiscretion on Beta 6?

I am feeling surge characteristics, Nanoware, and 'Save Character to Text File' options in the sheets near future.

[AllTheNothing]

to Damien:
As you say Drakes are immune to HMHVV, and if a character with latent dracomorfosis gets infected said character is royaly screwed about being a drake, so drakes and infected are mutualy exclusive and using the same cells makes sense; but shapeshifters are NOT human so they can't get infected either (Human Meta-Human Vampiric Virus), there is also absolutely no way that they can be drakes (Runner Companion p.86, at the end of the first paragraph of "Not Human"), in E1 Cell there's nothing that can be applaied to shapeshifters (except "NONE") and that cell comment states:
"Select Infection here. Most infections are race-specific. If this cell is highlighted, then your race does not match with your infected type."
Being the "Not Always Quite Human" option a shifter-only I thought that it could be put there with minimal effort, metahumans have their metahuman-only stuff and so shifters, no way anyone can have both.
For the difference on the sheet I'm refering to adjusting attributes and abilities; the "Not Always Quite Human" (RC p.87) states "A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form." which is ambigue but the devs have let to be intended that it applaies also to attributes (which makes sense, aside the "were-bear types" all the shapeshifters come with built-in low-light, why should they pay for shifting 20 BP for resemble an elf (or 10 for orks) when they gain nothing).
Even than if you think it can be implemented in a better way (or that should not be implemented at all) I won't complain about it, you ARE working for us after all.

To Dumori:
You have convinced me: I know nothing about it so I'd be better to correct such flaw; any suggestion on where can I retrive any material on it?

[Bobson]

I am open to using xml. Could you provide reasons why XML would work better than plain text with config style formatting for this specific process? XML is very versatile, but our needs are so simple, I think I would like to keep it as simple as possible. Give me reasons and I will weigh it.

Personally, I tend to prefer plaintext to XML, just because the plaintext is easier to read. But for something as complicated and as structured as a character, XML seems to make more sense to me. Expecially for the gear section.

Say you have three pieces of armor (body, helmet, and a piece of PPP). Each of which has a number of armor mods. In a plaintext file, you'd have to come up with some way of denoting which mods were on which armor at which rating. This might involve indenting, or putting a - before each line, or something. But then you get into custom-built weapons, or vehicles, or other heavily modded things, and that gets unwieldy rapidly. XML inherently supports this kind of nested structure.

[DamienKnight]

Personally, I tend to prefer plaintext to XML, just because the plaintext is easier to read. But for something as complicated and as structured as a character, XML seems to make more sense to me. Expecially for the gear section.

Say you have three pieces of armor (body, helmet, and a piece of PPP). Each of which has a number of armor mods. In a plaintext file, you'd have to come up with some way of denoting which mods were on which armor at which rating. This might involve indenting, or putting a - before each line, or something. But then you get into custom-built weapons, or vehicles, or other heavily modded things, and that gets unwieldy rapidly. XML inherently supports this kind of nested structure.

Ah, modded items. That does present us with a multi-level item that is not easily expressed in a .ini style text file.

Here is how I would do it:

[Custom Weapon 1]
base=SMG
mod1=ExtendedClip
mod2=Sling
maxslots=7
name=Ares Hellfire
description=An smg designed by Wolf, based on the old Uzi III model.
[Custom Armor 1]
armor=Lined Coat
mod1=Insulated
mod1rating=4

But perhaps this could be expressed in xml style:

CODE

<SR4Character>
    <Gear>
        <Ranged Weapons>
            <Standard Weapon>Ares Predator</Standard Weapon>
            <Standard Weapon>Colt America L36</Standard Weapon>
            <Custom Weapon>
                <Name>Hellfire</Name>
                <Mod>Extended Clip</Mod>
                <Mod>Sling</Mod>
                <Base>SMG</Base>
                <Description>An smg designed by Wolf, based on the old Uzi III model.</Description>
            </Custom Weapon>
        </Ranged Weapons>
        <Armor>
            <Standard Armor>Lined Coat</Standard Armor>
            <Custom Armor>
                <Name>Lined Coat</Name>
                <Base>Lined Coat</Base>
                <Mod>
                    <Type>Insulation</Type>
                    <Rating>4</Rating>
                </Mod>
            </Custom Armor>
        </Armor>
    </Gear>
</SR4Character>

The benefit I see from xml is that there is no limit to how many mods/custom items you have, whereas the .ini example names the group after the mod/custom item number.

In my opinion it would be easier to code around the Custom Weapon limit in an ini file than it would be to organize this with xml, but perhaps the xml would look more professional and be a little more standard?

Coding in xml is going to take me longer, and be less readable by a text editor, and more error prone when edited by xml editors...

I will work on some more complete samples and see how it goes. I may decide to use both methods and see which is more quickly embraced by other Character handling programs...

My current plan is to have a sheet with data like this:
(this will make more sense if you copy it and import it into an excel sheet as tab delimited text)

CODE

Variable    CellName    Text Group    TextVarname    XMLtag    Value
Strength    modStrength    Attributes    strength    Attributes/Strength    4
Race    Race    Main    Race    Race    Human
Infection    Infection    Main    Infection    Infection    None
Cust. Weap. 1 Name    custWeap1    Custom Weapon 1    Name    Gear/Range Weapons/Custom Weapon/Name    Hellfire

When outputting to text, it will sort the list by Text Group. When xml it will organize by the XMLtag. A macro will have to be used for XML. I believe I can rig the sheet to output the text version to a blank sheet which could be Exported as text without a macro, although Macroing it might be easier.

[cryptoknight]

I'd go with XML... but design the DTDs and other format documents first so you have a standard to operate with.

Then anybody could apply an XSLT to the XML file and make multiple different character sheets from the same data.

[DamienKnight]

Great character sheet. I should have done more searching before posting a quick reply in another thread.

Something I noticed, however, is that some of the SURGE qualities that should be available aren't listed. On page 110 of Runner's Companion it indicates:
"Other Metagenic Qualities

In addition to the metagenetic qualities introduced below, the following qualities available in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition qualify as Metagenetic qualities (see Qualities, p. 77, SR4; New Awakened Qualities, pp. 24–28, Street Magic; and Augmented Qualities, pp. 20–22, Augmentation). Other Positive Qualities: Astral Sight, Biocompatibility, Double Jointed, High Pain Tolerance, Magic Resistance, Natural Hardening, Natural Immunity, Quick Healer, Resistance to Pathogens/Toxins, Spell/Spirit Knack, Toughness.

Other Negative Qualities: Allergy, Asthma, Albinism, Biosystem Overstress, Disease Carrier, Gene Freak, Low Pain Tolerance, Nano Intolerance, Reduced (Sense), Sensitive System, Uncontrolled Metastasis, Weak Immune System."

I wanted to do a quick run-through of a SURGE 1 with both Type O System and Biocompatibility, but couldn't pick-up Bio since it wasn't listed as a qualifying positive SURGE ability.

Otherwise, especially as a newbie to SR4, I'm really enjoying your spreadsheet. Keep up the good work.

The above quote from dirkformica was actually posted here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...50&start=50

But I took note of this when implementing Changling/Surge characteristics.

In the interest of keeping all primary data on the Main_Sheet, I figured out a way to enforce Metagenics inside the quality cells that are already there.

Basically all Normal, Metagenic, and Infected qualities are part of one big list, but if you do not qualify for the quality, that quality will appear as a blank in the list for you. For example, you cannot select the 'Fangs' metagenic quality as a default, but if you are a Gnome, or you select one of the three levels of 'Surge', then the Fangs quality is selectable.

The only problem now is that you can possibly run out of quality slots (whereas before it was not a possibility). To help compensate for this, I moved the Negative qualities list down one slot. Any slot from the positive qualities area can still be used for either positive or negative, but the number of cells that only display Negative qualities is reduced. Also keep in mind that you can always override the dropdown list by manually entering in the Quality name (but if casing or spelling is off, the cost will not display correctly).

[DamienKnight]

My brother in law was trying to make a surge character, so I decided to quickly implement Changlings and publish this as version 6 (along with a few bug fixes). A complete list of changes is available on the Credits tab.

SR4_Chargen_Upgraded_Beta6.zip

Simply select one of the three Surge qualities, and the Metagenic qualities will be available. Where the cost of Qualities is listed near the top, there will appear two new numbers... the number of Metagenic qualities you have selected/ The minimum you must select(and get for free).

There is also a fix for race cost, where the Karma_Build_System cost options were accidentally applying to BP characters.

[AllTheNothing]

Broad Auditory Spectrum is either high-frequency or low-frequency so it's probably better meaking two distinct flags for this quality.
By the way I was looking for Italian lenguage and I found Italic!! Just made me smile.

[DamienKnight]

Broad Auditory Spectrum is either high-frequency or low-frequency so it's probably better meaking two distinct flags for this quality.
By the way I was looking for Italian lenguage and I found Italic!! Just made me smile.

Yay for spellchecker! LoL... too bad it doesnt have any kind of context sensitivity. I mean you would think the dumb computer would realize we are listing languages!

I split the metagenic Broad Auditory Spectrum quality into high and low frequency versions.

I fixed Italic and went ahead and added the top 30 world languages to the list (it was missing Russian, Thai and French!)

[AllTheNothing]

The spellchecker?

That remindes a time when a was working in a office writing a letter to a bank (you know bank accounts, payments for the workers, yea the kind of thing that needs accuracy) and the spellchecker kept correcting peoples names, I failed to nuke a single "correction" and that one was (thanks to the Big D) intercepted by my boss. At the end of the day no harm was done but what earfull I recived (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) .

Here you're making me smile again! Do you mind if I cpyright you as a cure for depression?

[DamienKnight]

Added Nanoware and Mentor Spirits today. Going to start on the text output and hope to include it with version 7.

When people have a chance to check out version 6, please let me know what you think about the Changeling functionality. Is it easy to understand? Make sure you read comments on cells when you are trying to figure things out.

[Bobson]

Added Nanoware and Mentor Spirits today. Going to start on the text output and hope to include it with version 7.

When people have a chance to check out version 6, please let me know what you think about the Changeling functionality. Is it easy to understand? Make sure you read comments on cells when you are trying to figure things out.

I like. Thanks for adding it!


On the Vehicle data sheet, on the list of vehicle mods, the General Mods section doesn't match the sections above it, which then messes up the vehicle calculations.

[Bobson]

In my opinion it would be easier to code around the Custom Weapon limit in an ini file than it would be to organize this with xml, but perhaps the xml would look more professional and be a little more standard?

Coding in xml is going to take me longer, and be less readable by a text editor, and more error prone when edited by xml editors...

I will work on some more complete samples and see how it goes. I may decide to use both methods and see which is more quickly embraced by other Character handling programs...

We probably ought to spin this off into another thread, specifically to talk about the format, and hash out the specifics of either or both.

[Mithral MAge]

Anyone used openoffice.org to open/use this excel sheet? Did it convert/work OK?

[gtjormungand]

Anyone used openoffice.org to open/use this excel sheet? Did it convert/work OK?

It works alright for me in my slightly outdated OO.org version 2.2.0. The problems that I've found include weapon modifications that should increase based on the base weapon cost always come up as zero and that adding a smartgun system to a weapon does not enable the smartgun properties. Also, the vehicle modifications appear to be double charged.

[awolfromlife]

I've used nothing but Open Office and it seems to work fine. I havent had a chance to pick it apart yet

[awolfromlife]

Is there a time frame for adding AI's ?

[Cabral]

playing around a bit more. How do I add nonstandard Complex Forms? Smartlink, Simrig, Skillsofts (if technomancer has Biowire echo), etc?

[DamienKnight]

On the Vehicle data sheet, on the list of vehicle mods, the General Mods section doesn't match the sections above it, which then messes up the vehicle calculations.

Roger that, Bob. Fixed in 7. Also going to add rating boxes for the rated items.

playing around a bit more. How do I add nonstandard Complex Forms? Smartlink, Simrig, Skillsofts (if technomancer has Biowire echo), etc?

I have added this to 7.

Is there a time frame for adding AI's ?

Not right now. I am currently working on the text file output for porting characters between sheet versions. I may add modular cyberlimb support also in version 7.

I will probably end up making version 8 fixes for the text output. I may be ready for AI in version 9.

I just got Fallout 3 and it is spiffy, so expect slower updates for a few weeks. In the last couple weeks I have learned to juggle holding/feeding a baby and working on the spreadsheet, but doing that AND playing F3 is unlikely (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[damaleon]

Good luck with Fallout 3, I've been playing it myself and time just dissappears when I'm at it.

A tiny little bit of gear related updates I just noticed as I incorporated the v1.5 SR4 errata into my copy (all on the Gear Data sheet):

the limo (Nightsky) is 120,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (instead of 20k)

one of the boats (Nymph) is 170,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (instead of 17k)

AP of flechette rounds is +5 AP instead of +2, affecting the guns listed with Flechette ammo (about 4-8 entries I think)