Upgraded Character Generator, Updated Generator Based on work from Autarkis and Blakkie Options

[DamienKnight]

http://www.filedropper.com/sr4cgdk1qfix

Fixed problem where Integral Recoil Comp as a Standard Upgrade that came with a weapon was not stacking with any other recoil.

Fixed missing True/False dropdown for Karma Build System on settings page.

Removed Clout reference on Main Sheet that was breaking Contacts cost when using the Karma Build system.


I have replaced all old download links with the fixed version.

[DamienKnight]

As always, excellent work Damien.

Found a small problem, there are no qualities associated with the various Adept ways and selecting one of the ways on the Magic tab doesnt reduce the cost for any of the relevant powers.

Actually, all qualities associated with a way are applicable for the discount. The book only allows for Magic Rating/2 (round down) number discounted abilities, so none are discounted automatically. If you choose a way, then anytime a power from that Way's list is selected, the new 'Way' column will highlight green. Put an 'x' in that column, and you will be choosing that power to be one of your 'Way' discounts.

Its been playtested and works great. You can even select 'Totem', then select a secondary way, and get discounts for all powers from both lists, as the .pdf describes.

Its time for crazy pimp Combat Adepts with effectively 12 magic rating to start. Adepts were stupid overpowered before, now they are straight up redunkulous!

[Draco18s]

I am not able to replicate this issue. When I put armored clothing on that line, it correctly shows 6 in cell x11.

What other gear items are you using? Do you experience the problem when all you have on the sheet is the armor clothing on row 11?

I had my armor section like this:
Armored Clothing
(mods)
Armored Jacket
(mods)

I haven't put in any mods yet (and probably won't for a while, now that chargen is over and I had no money left). I happened to be looking for what armor I had and hit the char sheet page (which I normally don;t use) and saw the mussed up cell so I posted it here.

I'll see if it's just armored clothing or if it's everything. I haven't touched any of the data sheets on this one, so it's unlikely that I buggered something up myself.

[DamienKnight]

Still cant replicate the issue. Can you take a screenshot of your Gear page and Charsheet page and PM it to me?

[Draco18s]

Still cant replicate the issue. Can you take a screenshot of your Gear page and Charsheet page and PM it to me?

It's on a computer at home, and I certainly will do.
I could send you to the whole file, too. It's not like it's got personal information in it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Socinus]

Actually, all qualities associated with a way are applicable for the discount. The book only allows for Magic Rating/2 (round down) number discounted abilities, so none are discounted automatically. If you choose a way, then anytime a power from that Way's list is selected, the new 'Way' column will highlight green. Put an 'x' in that column, and you will be choosing that power to be one of your 'Way' discounts.

Its been playtested and works great. You can even select 'Totem', then select a secondary way, and get discounts for all powers from both lists, as the .pdf describes.

Its time for crazy pimp Combat Adepts with effectively 12 magic rating to start. Adepts were stupid overpowered before, now they are straight up redunkulous!

**Needs to look more carefully before opening his big mouth**

Awesome!

[Draco18s]

It's on a computer at home, and I certainly will do.
I could send you to the whole file, too. It's not like it's got personal information in it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Here you go Damien.
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~mmj29/temp/odd_sheet_error.zip

I put the sheet and the screenshot in there.

And it #REF!'s on any armor in that first armor box.

[DamienKnight]

Here you go Damien.
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~mmj29/temp/odd_sheet_error.zip

I put the sheet and the screenshot in there.

And it #REF!'s on any armor in that first armor box.

I guess this was a problem with version P. This doesnt occur on the newest version of the sheet. It has to do with coding on the Gear page, which is correct on the latest version.

[DamienKnight]

There is an error in the Way of the Adept add on for Warriors in the sheet. They are supposed to have one of their discountable powers be 'Improved Combat Ability' but instead it is 'Improved Physical Ability' on the sheet. This is corrected in the next version. If you want to correct it yourself:

Format->Sheet->Unhide-> Adept_Data

On Adept_Data, under the 'The Warrior's Way' heading on the right hand side, change 'Improved Physical Ability' to 'Improved Combat Ability'.

[Dakka Dakka]

The Forearm Snap-Blades (SR4A p. 314 f.) seem to be missing from the melee weapon list. Rifle Butt and Pistol (Arsenal p. 17) aren't available as improvised weapons either.

All CharSheets display natural BOD in the BOD(x)+Cyber/Bio(y)+Dmg.Rst.(z) field (Cell U8/U77/U140). The Sum in Cell Q8/Q77/Q140 uses the correct augmented BOD.

I guess the modded weapons get added at the bottom of the weapon list on CharSheet, os that they don't overwrite the unmoddable weapons starting from top. I guess most people would like to modify their weapns at some point, so why don't you a) switch that order or b) remove the unmoddable weapons altogether. I don't think there is a need for that section.

The range of Bows should be based on the Minimum Strength for the Bow, not the actual Strength of the user.

[DamienKnight]

The Forearm Snap-Blades (SR4A p. 314 f.) seem to be missing from the melee weapon list. Rifle Butt and Pistol (Arsenal p. 17) aren't available as improvised weapons either.

All CharSheets display natural BOD in the BOD(x)+Cyber/Bio(y)+Dmg.Rst.(z) field (Cell U8/U77/U140). The Sum in Cell Q8/Q77/Q140 uses the correct augmented BOD.

I guess the modded weapons get added at the bottom of the weapon list on CharSheet, os that they don't overwrite the unmoddable weapons starting from top. I guess most people would like to modify their weapns at some point, so why don't you a) switch that order or b) remove the unmoddable weapons altogether. I don't think there is a need for that section.

The range of Bows should be based on the Minimum Strength for the Bow, not the actual Strength of the user.

Added Snap Blades, Pistol and Rifle butt. Tweaked Damage resistance summary and movement rates on the charsheets. Fixed bow ranges. Reversed the order of Weapon listing on the charsheet. Look for all of these changes in the upcoming version R.

[DamienKnight]

Quick question for the regulars that use this sheet:

How do you feel about Cyber Replacement Limbs Armor? Currently the book allows for up to 4 points of armor on each limb (only up to 2 on the skull) for a total of 22 armor on the whole body. According to the rules, this counts point for point as actual Ballistic Impact Armor.

In 3rd edition, implant armor was purchased for each part like regular armor (limit 8 i believe) but your total armor was a summary of all cyber armor divided by your limbs (2arms,2legs,1head,1torso = 6).

So basically with 4th edition, each point of armor on a limb counts as 6 points of armor for a called shot, because it covers only 1/6th of your body but raises your over armor by 1. This means 4 points of cyber armor on an arm = 24 armor for a called shot.

Does not seem right to me.

I propose a new system. Here are the two major alternatives I see:

1. Return to 3rd edition. Each armor only costs 1 capacity (instead of 2) and you have a limit of 12 instead of 4 per limb. Total armor is the average armor per limb.

2. Stay with 4th edition rules, but put a realistic limit on it. No more 24 armor per limb (rating 4 for your full body) instead, cap it at 2 points of armor per limb, which equals 12 armor per called shot, which averages to 2 armor for full body. If all limbs are armored your limited to 12 total armor from cyber. This is much more powerful that option 1, but still a little less crazy than have 22 points of armor with the 4th RAW rules.

Please give me your thoughts on which system is preferable.

[Dakka Dakka]

So basically with 4th edition, each point of armor on a limb counts as 6 points of armor for a called shot, because it covers only 1/6th of your body but raises your over armor by 1. This means 4 points of cyber armor on an arm = 24 armor for a called shot.

In SR there are no hit locations so this calculation gives the wrong impression. 4 armor is 4 armor no matter where it is and where anyone shoots.
The armor value of an item incorporates both the coverage and the protective properties of the material. The Maximum 4 armor of a single cyberlimb is comparable to Armored Clothing (Ballistic Armor) a Lined coat (Impact Armor). You can easily deduce that the material in the Cyberlimb armor must be a lot more bullet resistant than those used the two pieces of clothing as the Limb Armor covers a lot less of the body.

Yes, it is abstract and may lead to weird results, but a "wrong" narrative may partly be responsible. The player should not say what he does, but what he intends to do. The GM then tells him and the rest of the group what actually happens based on the rolls. So the guy with the SOTA armored codpiece of doom would not be shot in the face if the GMs roll soaked all the damage even though that was the players intention. The GM should in that case something a long the lines that the shot went and the bullet bounced off the codpiece or that it is one of those cases where the bullet hits and still does little to no damage.

While 22 may a higher value tha the armor of some military vehicles it is still a lot worse:
-The character cannot ignore stun damage as vehicles do.
-The character cannot ignore fire from SS/SA/BF weapons unless specifically targeted, most likely with the Target hidden modifier for the attacker.
-The character is not immune to being targeted by spells.

I propose a new system. Here are the two major alternatives I see:

1. Return to 3rd edition. Each armor only costs 1 capacity (instead of 2) and you have a limit of 12 instead of 4 per limb. Total armor is the average armor per limb.

2. Stay with 4th edition rules, but put a realistic limit on it. No more 24 armor per limb (rating 4 for your full body) instead, cap it at 2 points of armor per limb, which equals 12 armor per called shot, which averages to 2 armor for full body. If all limbs are armored your limited to 12 total armor from cyber. This is much more powerful that option 1, but still a little less crazy than have 22 points of armor with the 4th RAW rules.

Please give me your thoughts on which system is preferable.

As you may remember from previous discussions I don't think that the RAW version needs any change and that 22 Armor is only a theoretical maximum, that nearly no character will actually have as it takes up too much capacity. If you want to houserule it I'd say go with Option two. With it you preserve at least part of the few benefits of cyberlimbs.

Alternately you could do something else, limit Armor two 2 per limb but use normal stacking. I bet no one will complain that they want to pack more than 2 armor in any limb. Likely most people will be still under the maximum 12 armor.

[DamienKnight]

In SR there are no hit locations so this calculation gives the wrong impression. 4 armor is 4 armor no matter where it is and where anyone shoots.
The armor value of an item incorporates both the coverage and the protective properties of the material. The Maximum 4 armor of a single cyberlimb is comparable to Armored Clothing (Ballistic Armor) a Lined coat (Impact Armor). You can easily deduce that the material in the Cyberlimb armor must be a lot more bullet resistant than those used the two pieces of clothing as the Limb Armor covers a lot less of the body.

Yes, so basicallly you are saying, partial armor is not divided, however you acknowledge that 4 armor on a limb that gives your overall body +4 armor is alot tougher than armored clothing. So its not divided, but really it is, but they just divide it for you before hand. That is a very useful observation Dakka. Im glad you have finally consented to agree with my take on armored limbs!

that nearly no character will actually have as it takes up too much capacity.

Obvious cyberleg = 20 capacity. Maximum armor in that leg = 8 capacity. The only limb incapable of maxing its armor is the skull, which can still hold half armor. I think you are way off mark here saying no one would ever stack up on armor.

To call the current cyberarm armor system rediculous is an understatement. You have MORE armor than a vehicle is allowed to have, and no, it does not even use up all of your capacity. Less than half of the capacity on cyber legs.

But I digress. I see that the acceptance of this broken rule is a plague, and to help erradicate it I will remove the super cyber limb armor rule from the sheet, and just max the armor at 2 per limb.

[DamienKnight]

Version r is now available.


http://www.filedropper.com/sr4cgdk1r

- Added all guns from Gun Heaven
- Fixed Heavy Crossbow name, several gun problems
- Fixed Way of the Warrior to discount Improved Combat Ability instead of Improved Physical Ability.
- Added a column for tracking additional bonuses to active skills
- Tweaked Damage Resist and Movement speed area on Character sheets
- Reversed order of weapon listing on charsheets

[Mäx]

Obvious cyberleg = 20 capacity. Maximum armor in that leg = 8 capacity. The only limb incapable of maxing its armor is the skull, which can still hold half armor. I think you are way off mark here saying no one would ever stack up on armor.

Yes, obvious limbs can max armor, but for pretty much all characters ever, there are much better uses for that capasity, like for example not having crappy stats.
Many people will very likely but a point or 2 to any limb their character might get, but cyberlimb armor tank isn't really a viable character concept.
6 cyberlimbs at standart grade take you straight to negative essence, even alpha grade only leaves you 1 essence.

Also it's a mistake of epic proportions to equate 20+ points of character armor to 20+ points of vehicle armor.
As character armor isn't hardened, the fact that enemy need to do 30+(counting in the worn armor) points of damage to do physical damage doesn't really matter, as you will be dead from stun overflow from much weaker attacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Oh and thats for the version newest version including the ways and all the new guns. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Draco18s]

Obvious cyberleg = 20 capacity. Maximum armor in that leg = 8 capacity. The only limb incapable of maxing its armor is the skull, which can still hold half armor. I think you are way off mark here saying no one would ever stack up on armor.

The problem with maxing armor like this is that it is prohibitively expensive.

[Dakka Dakka]

Yes, so basicallly you are saying, partial armor is not divided, however you acknowledge that 4 armor on a limb that gives your overall body +4 armor is alot tougher than armored clothing. So its not divided, but really it is, but they just divide it for you before hand. That is a very useful observation Dakka. Im glad you have finally consented to agree with my take on armored limbs!

Actually I have not said anything different than before. Maybe I did not make myself clear earlier. Last time around I gave the examples of the armor vest(smallest coverage, best protection), lined coat (medium coverage and protection) and chameleon suit (largest coverage and thus worse protective quality) and military helmet (good protection, small coverage) versus leather jacket (worse protection better coverage.

Obvious cyberleg = 20 capacity. Maximum armor in that leg = 8 capacity. The only limb incapable of maxing its armor is the skull, which can still hold half armor. I think you are way off mark here saying no one would ever stack up on armor.

As Mäx and Draco18s already pointed out that the capacity itself is not the problem. The problem is that there are many other things you would like to have in your cyberlimb.
I am of the opinion that it is very ulikely that a character would use only one limb for a test, and thus be allowed to use the cyberlimb's attributes. As such it important for him that he either has the meat limbs at similarly high attributes and/or outfits all his cyberlimbs with high attributes. They cannot This gets very expensive, very fast in terms of nuyen as well as capacity. And that's not counting all the non-attribute goodies you might want to cram in: nano-hive, arm gyros, hydraulic jacks etc.

Torso ans skull have their own problems. By definition they are cyberlimbs, but they are also only shells. Can a shell have its own BOD, AGI and STR? either you have to max your meat stats to ever have maxed stats or you have to max the shells with cyberlimb augmentations. The former is prohibitingly expensive (if at all possible, BOD shouldn't be) the latter is definitely impossible

[DamienKnight]

Yes, obvious limbs can max armor, but for pretty much all characters ever, there are much better uses for that capasity, like for example not having crappy stats.
Many people will very likely but a point or 2 to any limb their character might get, but cyberlimb armor tank isn't really a viable character concept.
6 cyberlimbs at standart grade take you straight to negative essence, even alpha grade only leaves you 1 essence.

Also it's a mistake of epic proportions to equate 20+ points of character armor to 20+ points of vehicle armor.
As character armor isn't hardened, the fact that enemy need to do 30+(counting in the worn armor) points of damage to do physical damage doesn't really matter, as you will be dead from stun overflow from much weaker attacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Oh and thats for the version newest version including the ways and all the new guns. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Actually I have not said anything different than before. Maybe I did not make myself clear earlier. Last time around I gave the examples of the armor vest(smallest coverage, best protection), lined coat (medium coverage and protection) and chameleon suit (largest coverage and thus worse protective quality) and military helmet (good protection, small coverage) versus leather jacket (worse protection better coverage.
As Mäx and Draco18s already pointed out that the capacity itself is not the problem. The problem is that there are many other things you would like to have in your cyberlimb.
I am of the opinion that it is very ulikely that a character would use only one limb for a test, and thus be allowed to use the cyberlimb's attributes. As such it important for him that he either has the meat limbs at similarly high attributes and/or outfits all his cyberlimbs with high attributes. They cannot This gets very expensive, very fast in terms of nuyen as well as capacity. And that's not counting all the non-attribute goodies you might want to cram in: nano-hive, arm gyros, hydraulic jacks etc.

Torso ans skull have their own problems. By definition they are cyberlimbs, but they are also only shells. Can a shell have its own BOD, AGI and STR? either you have to max your meat stats to ever have maxed stats or you have to max the shells with cyberlimb augmentations. The former is prohibitingly expensive (if at all possible, BOD shouldn't be) the latter is definitely impossible

Lets see, custom attributes, +3 to all attributes, only 9 capacity used. Add 3 armor for 8 capacity... still have room for Hydrolic jacks... max rating if enhanced capacity is used. Someone getting armor in their legs is SO unlikely!

If no one is ever putting armor in their legs, I am sure you will have no problem with the 2 armor per limb limit.


'unlikely thata character would use only one limb for a test' .. yeah, because putting 9 agility on an arm, then shooting with that arm so you get full 9 agility for the test, WHO would EVER do that? Surely no one.

In fact, agility in limbs other than your arms affects athletics and stealth.. and not much else. When fighting unarmed you can lead with one limb and use only its agility/strength.

Dont waste your breath Dakka, your arguments are only getting weaker and more invalid.

[Draco18s]

Alright. So. I opened up the sheet and started checking what are the VIABLE limits on armor in a tinman, under standard chargen rules.

Here's what you get:

Obvious Left Arm (2 armor) availability 10
Obvious Right Arm (2 armor) availability 10
Alphaware Obvious Left Leg (2 armor) availability 10
Alphaware Obvious Right Leg (2 armor) availability 10
Obvious Torsp (2 armor) availability 12
Obvious Skull (2 armor) availability 16 (restricted gear)

12 total armor. You can't get any more in any limb without exceeding the starting character's limit on availability (3 armor is 15)
Cost: 124,800 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (just under 25 BP)
5.85 Essence

And all your stats are 3.

Instead you could just buy Light Military Armor for 12,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (2.4 BP) and spend the same 5 BP on the same Restricted Gear quality and have the same armor vs. bullets (12/10 instead of 12/12).

Either way you look like a Mo-Fu-ing tank, only in the cheaper scenario you can take it off and leave it at home, if you need to.
It also doesn't matter what the former's physical track's length is (+2 boxes per cyberlimb) because he's only going to be taking stun damage anyway.

Now. If you really wanted to use all your restricted gear options on armor, you could boost it by another 4 (!!!) armor, 1200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 10 BP.

[Dakka Dakka]

Lets see, custom attributes, +3 to all attributes, only 9 capacity used. Add 3 armor for 8 capacity... still have room for Hydrolic jacks... max rating if enhanced capacity is used. Someone getting armor in their legs is SO unlikely!

This at least will only happen at CharGen, if the Character pays ¥38,500 per leg and Restricted Gear twice as well.

'unlikely thata character would use only one limb for a test' .. yeah, because putting 9 agility on an arm, then shooting with that arm so you get full 9 agility for the test, WHO would EVER do that? Surely no one.

In fact, agility in limbs other than your arms affects athletics and stealth.. and not much else. When fighting unarmed you can lead with one limb and use only its agility/strength.

Let me address that. One-handed firearms may be the exception, but everything else probably cannot be reduced to only one limb being involved. And still using the second hand to steady your pistol arguably is a good thing. The other thing is what does it matter if your arm is completely still when the legs or torso start to bob?
Melee combat most definitely involves all limbs (even head and torso). In the rules it is described as a series of feints, parries and attacks. Telling us to use the strength of a single limb for damage resolution is contrary to the rule and the section of cyberlimbs only mentions STR for damage not AGI, so to see if the "powerfist" actually hits, you would need the average of all limbs. Effectively punching someone involves the torso and legs nearly as much as the arm. Physical Skills tied to Physical Attributes would also use the average. That also includes Diving and Parachuting, even though they are less commonly used than the Athletics and Stealth Group.

@MilSpec Armor vs. Full Cyberlimb Replacement: Don't forget that the one in MilSpec Armor can ignore any attack of less than 13DV (vs Ballistic) and 11DV (vs Impact). The "borg" has to roll every time. Moreover for a little more BP (11 in total) you can get heavy MilSpec Armor and an armor vlaue of 18/16. That sounds a lot more like a tank too me. If you really want to push it, the character can additionally get Bone Density Augmentation/Boneleacing and/or Orthoskin/Demal Sheath/Dermal Plating. For 125BP and 1.95 ESS you get 9 BOD for Damage Resistance (5 for the rest), STR and AGI at 3 and 21/19 armor. A cheaper variant (Dermal Sheathing instead of Orthoskin) gets you 21/20 for 2.2 ESS and 120 BP (2*Restricted Gear though).

The average for Droco18s's "Borg" may just as well be 2, depending how you interpret the whole shell thing of torso and skull.

[Draco18s]

The average for Droco18s's "Borg" may just as well be 2, depending how you interpret the whole shell thing of torso and skull.

I didn't even try to figure out what stats you could shove into these limbs either. It wasn't really important, as I had a lot of capacity to play with, if I didn't use restricted gear to get the armor above 2.

Also, the cyberskull can't take the "more capacity" mod, and it's really the only "limb" that needs it.

[Mäx]

@MilSpec Armor vs. Full Cyberlimb Replacement: Don't forget that the one in MilSpec Armor can ignore any attack of less than 13DV (vs Ballistic) and 11DV (vs Impact). The "borg" has to roll every time.

No he cant, worn armor is never ever hardened armor.

[Dakka Dakka]

No he cant, worn armor is never ever hardened armor.

Woops that was 3rd Edition. Only dartguns needles and other 0DV attacks may be ignored. Still the "Borg" by RAW can't ignore those. And the MilSpec Armor already comes with a ChemSeal and environmental adaptation. The "borg" however could still wear MilSpec Armor.

[Shecky]

I just downloaded the latest version in Excel 2007, and noticed that some of the pages I can't see anything , or most of the page. Its all whited out (No Colors, no information as to what the drop downs are for, what area etc). Pages I noticed were Cyberpart, Ally Spirit and Magic. Do these become visible when you choose certain things in your build or are they just somewhat broken?